I have some questions about the Cthulhu universe

[Panpanpanjeidj]

No, no, no. This means that the difference in one dimension is the same as the difference between a small infinity and a large infinity.

If 0d is Aleph 0, 1d is Aleph 1 and 2d is Aleph2

 

[ultimate]

The first gate is referred to as trans-dimensional and non-dimensional, so it seems to be evaluated as Wiki 1-A.

Simple trans-dimension means more than four dimensions, but at the same time they are mentioned as non-dimensional, so I think they are beyond all dimensions.

can you give me the corresponding paragraph? Because I don't see where it says the first gate is beyond dimension

 

[ultimate]

No, no, no. This means that the difference in one dimension is the same as the difference between a small infinity and a large infinity.

If 0d is Aleph 0, 1d is Aleph 1 and 2d is Aleph2

OK，so，infinite dimension=aleph infinite?

 

[Panpanpanjeidj]

By the time the rite was over Carter knew that he was in no region whose place could be told by earth’s geographers, and in no age whose date history could fix. For the nature of what was happening was not wholly unfamiliar to him. There were hints of it in the cryptical Pnakotic fragments, and a whole chapter in the forbidden Necronomicon of the mad Arab Abdul Alhazred had taken on significance when he had deciphered the designs graven on the Silver Key. A gate had been unlocked—not indeed the Ultimate Gate, but one leading from earth and time to that extension of earth which is outside time, and from which in turn the Ultimate Gate leads fearsomely and perilously to the Last Void which is outside all earths, all universes, and all matter.

Memory and imagination shaped dim half-pictures with uncertain outlines amidst the seething chaos, but Carter knew that they were of memory and imagination only. Yet he felt that it was not chance which built these things in his consciousness, but rather some vast reality, ineffable and undimensioned, which surrounded him and strove to translate itself into the only symbols he was capable of grasping. For no mind of earth may grasp the extensions of shape which interweave in the oblique gulfs outside time and the dimensions we know.

https://vsbattles.com/threads/cthulhu-mythos-revisions-part-1.113000/

The tier of the current lovecraft is determined in this thread.

 

[Panpanpanjeidj]

OK，so，infinite dimension=aleph infinite?

If 0d is Aleph 0, then yes. Infinite doesn't mean much in itself. Even with the same Aleph 0, Aleph 0 universe is 2-A, but Aleph 0 dimension is High 1-B.

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

Through the Gates of the Silver Key said:The world of men and of the gods of men is merely an infinitesimal phase of an infinitesimal thing—the three-dimensional phase of that small wholeness reached by the First Gate
someone said this world is earth,not universe

There's actually more context to that

 

[Panpanpanjeidj]

Honestly, I don't know why all tier 0s on this wiki are tier 0.
So if you ask a question about Tier 0 in Lovecraft, I won't be able to answer it.

 

[ultimate]

Aleph 0 universe is 2-A, but Aleph 0 dimension is High 1-B.

That's why?

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

You cut a lot of context there, the "Earth" that TtGotSK is referring to contains infinite higher dimension

Then the waves increased in strength, and sought to improve his understanding, reconciling him to the multiform entity of which his present fragment was an infinitesimal part. They told him that every figure of space is but the result of the intersection by a plane of some corresponding figure of one more dimension—as a square is cut from a cube or a circle from a sphere. The cube and sphere, of three dimensions, are thus cut from corresponding forms of four dimensions that men know only through guesses and dreams; and these in turn are cut from forms of five dimensions, and so on up to the dizzy and reachless heights of archetypal infinity. The world of men and of the gods of men is merely an infinitesimal phase of an infinitesimal thing—the three-dimensional phase of that small wholeness reached by the First Gate, where ’Umr at-Tawil dictates dreams to the Ancient Ones.

Wait you don't know what's Outerversal? Have you checked the Tiering Systems?

 

[Panpanpanjeidj]

That's why?

Because the Aleph number simply represents the size of an infinite set.

 

[Planck69]

@ultimate

I think you seem to misunderstand how this works. Alephs mean nothing without reference to what they're quantifying. Just saying "they're beyond Alephs" makes no sense.

 

[ultimate]

Because the Aleph number simply represents the size of an infinite set.

my mean is why Aleph 0 universe is 2-A, but Aleph 0 dimension is High 1-B. universe and dimension have some difference?

 

[Planck69]

my mean is why Aleph 0 universe is 2-A, but Aleph 0 dimension is High 1-B. universe and dimension have some difference?

Yes. Universes are just that while dimensions are spatiotemporal axes of movement. An infinite number of them making up a space, provided these dimensions are large in size, would amount to a space that's infinite levels of infinity above infinite universes.

 

[ultimate]

You cut a lot of context there, the "Earth" that TtGotSK is referring to contains infinite higher dimension

your earth is The world of men and of the gods of men or small wholeness?

 

[ultimate]

Yes. Universes are just that while dimensions are spatiotemporal axes of movement. An infinite number of them making up a space, provided these dimensions are large in size, would amount to a space that's infinite levels of infinity above infinite universes.

thanks bro

 

[Planck69]

your earth is The world of men and of the gods of men or small wholeness?

The world of men is the 3-dimensional phase of the infinite dimensional small wholeness that is a universe, beyond which is the First Gate.

 

[ultimate]

The world of men is the 3-dimensional phase of the infinite dimensional small wholeness that is a universe, beyond which is the First Gate.

but， small wholeness Isn't that Umr's place?this is in the First Gate

 

[Planck69]

but， small wholeness Isn't that Umr's place?this is in the First Gate

Small wholeness isn't the place of the Ancient Ones/Umr-at Tawil. That's the realm before the Ultimate Gate.

 

[ultimate]

Small wholeness isn't the place of the Ancient Ones/Umr-at Tawil. That's the realm before the Ultimate Gate.

the three-dimensional phase of that small wholeness reached by the First Gate, where ’Umr at-Tawil dictates dreams to the Ancient Ones

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

your earth is The world of men and of the gods of men or small wholeness?

I put quotation on Earth, if you don't realize, what i meant is the whole Universe containing H1-B structure.

the three-dimensional phase of that small wholeness reached by the First Gate, where ’Umr at-Tawil dictates dreams to the Ancient Ones

Yeah, i believe that Umr At Tawil is around the first gate, guiding Carter through the Hierarchy then show him the way to the Ultimate Gate.

 

[ultimate]

the three-dimensional phase of that small wholeness reached by the First Gate, where ’Umr at-Tawil dictates dreams to the Ancient Ones

small wholeness Isn't that Umr's place?when he though the first gate,umr appeared

 

[ultimate]

I put quotation on Earth, if you don't realize, what i meant is the whole Universe containing H1-B structure.

Yeah, i believe that Umr At Tawil is around the first gate, guiding Carter through the Hierarchy then show him the way to the Ultimate Gate.

umr in the first gate，no around here，when he though the first gate,umr appeared

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

Um, excuse me, what are you saying?

 

[ultimate]

Um, excuse me, what are you saying?

Is the small wholeness before the first gate or inside the first gate?
because this:the three-dimensional phase of that small wholeness reached by the First Gate, where ’Umr at-Tawil dictates dreams to the Ancient Ones
I think this small wholeness is Umr's place

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

Uhh, im sure the small wholeness is the gate, like a part of the gate

 

[ultimate]

Uhh, im sure the small wholeness is the gate, like a part of the gate

thanks for your reply

 

[AKUTO123]

They change it, because of Archetype messing with perspective, it's not a retconned thing either.

Infinite higher dimension, that qualify for H1-B. And then we have the First Gate that encompass all of these as a "small wholeness" indicating that the infinite higher dimension is nothing but an infinitesimal part of the First Gate.

The First Gate qualify for 1-A.

shouldn't this still be High 1B? They told me that being infinitely superior or greater than High 1B is still High 1B.

 

[Planck69]

The First Gate completely transcends Low 1-A space-time. It's not just infinitely higher obviously.

 

[AKUTO123]

The First Gate completely transcends Low 1-A space-time. It's not just infinitely higher obviously.

dimensions do not make High 1B, how does it exceed low 1A? and how much exceeding low 1A makes 1A?

 

[AKUTO123]

From what I've read, what the first door goes through is clearly High 1B. Everyone who wrote High 1B defines High 1B as a small part of infinity, so High 1B is not completely unrelated in it.

 

[Planck69]

dimensions do not make High 1B, how does it exceed low 1A? and how much exceeding low 1A makes 1A?

A single universe is High 1-B. The overall multiverse is Low 1-A. The First Gate transcends all space-time as a whole. It's not that complex.

 

[AKUTO123]

there is a universe High 1B and the infinite Universe and they transcend each other? if so, low 1A and 1A yes make sense.

 

[Planck69]

there is a universe High 1B and the infinite Universe and they transcend each other? if so, low 1A and 1A yes make sense.

A universe is infinite dimensional and forms a part of a chain of universes which are represented as atoms in a higher order world that transcends said universes, with said chain being ambiguously long

The First Gate transcends this as a whole.

 

[AKUTO123]

A universe is infinite dimensional and forms a part of a chain of universes which are represented as atoms in a higher order world that transcends said universes, with said chain being ambiguously long

The First Gate transcends this as a whole.

understood . thanks for your help

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

Was about to reply to that.

But yeah, basically what Planck said, there's a greater Universe.

 

[TheDivineHost]

Was about to reply to that.

But yeah, basically what Planck said, there's a greater Universe.

*Multiverse

 

[ultimate]

Was about to reply to that.

But yeah, basically what Planck said, there's a greater Universe.

bro，A successor to the HPL, is there a higher universe than the HPL canon？

 

[Planck69]

bro，A successor to the HPL, is there a higher universe than the HPL canon？

No? A single universe in the setting is an atom-like existence in a higher order world, which is in turn below the First Gate. That's all it means.

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

bro，A successor to the HPL, is there a higher universe than the HPL canon？

Wdym

 

[ultimate]

Wdym

Lovecraft's successor, such as Derleth，Did you know there was something higher in their universe than Lovecraft's Canon？