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I attempt to M E M E the wiki asunder
- Thread starter Yobo_Blue
- Start date
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Why would you even need to be the God of Memes? You're already The Dank Tower.
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I'm...not sure anymore, actually.
If Emprah's supposed to be fighting the physical version of the Tower, then it either traps him/depowers him as soon as he tries to harm it or he destroys the Beams and ends up having all of reality collapse on him. Which would make it impossible for him to win either way, but the latter scenario would be a tie.
If he's fighting the true form of the Tower (read: the entirety of creation itself, not Gan) from outside, then I dunno, since I'm not even sure how he'll manage to combat it.
Azzy might have something to say about the latter. I couldn't tell you.
If Emprah's supposed to be fighting the physical version of the Tower, then it either traps him/depowers him as soon as he tries to harm it or he destroys the Beams and ends up having all of reality collapse on him. Which would make it impossible for him to win either way, but the latter scenario would be a tie.
If he's fighting the true form of the Tower (read: the entirety of creation itself, not Gan) from outside, then I dunno, since I'm not even sure how he'll manage to combat it.
Azzy might have something to say about the latter. I couldn't tell you.
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I mean, they're both kind of weird as far as "fights" go.
One involves him trying to knock down a literal tower.
The other involves him trying to kill a multiverse from the outside.
Take your pick, I guess?
One involves him trying to knock down a literal tower.
The other involves him trying to kill a multiverse from the outside.
Take your pick, I guess?
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>a multiverse
More like an infinitely infinite multiverse with an infinitely infinite number of multiverses that all have an infinitely infinite number of multiverses within them, ad nauseam.
Without destroying the Beams, I don't think Emprah has any way to affect Gan at all.
And it's a stomp if it's vs Gan's true form, as Emprah is waaaaaay outclassed here.
Emprah vs CK would be a better match, but I still don't think he could affect CK either.
More like an infinitely infinite multiverse with an infinitely infinite number of multiverses that all have an infinitely infinite number of multiverses within them, ad nauseam.
Without destroying the Beams, I don't think Emprah has any way to affect Gan at all.
And it's a stomp if it's vs Gan's true form, as Emprah is waaaaaay outclassed here.
Emprah vs CK would be a better match, but I still don't think he could affect CK either.
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Bump
I'm not sure what to say about the fact that I'm invested in this now.
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Alright I'm going to try and make a case for Emps here because I don't think his Immaterium self is being represented exactly correctly here. Emps in the immaterium is not a "dude" that you can trap on a balcony. Like the chaos gods he's closer to an indeterminate mass of warp energy/influence residing over a wide area of an infinite dimensional plane that he can bend to his will.
I'm not particularly knowledgeable on The Dark Tower and it's beams but I think it should be possible for The Emperor to discover that they are a weak point. Even Materium Emps has superior precognition/far sight to Eldrad and his Immaterium self is vastly more powerful than either.
Lastly I want to point out that The Warp and The Tower itself are not actually that different in scale. According to Magnus the Red even the "surface" of the warp is infinitely dimension-ed and it is infinitely deep. Emps and the Chaos Gods have complete control within this space. They reshape reality on a whim. So I think a good question to ask is; can Emps left to his own devices collapse The Warp?
For the record I don't think that he can which leads me towards an Inconclusive vote here.
I'm not particularly knowledgeable on The Dark Tower and it's beams but I think it should be possible for The Emperor to discover that they are a weak point. Even Materium Emps has superior precognition/far sight to Eldrad and his Immaterium self is vastly more powerful than either.
Lastly I want to point out that The Warp and The Tower itself are not actually that different in scale. According to Magnus the Red even the "surface" of the warp is infinitely dimension-ed and it is infinitely deep. Emps and the Chaos Gods have complete control within this space. They reshape reality on a whim. So I think a good question to ask is; can Emps left to his own devices collapse The Warp?
For the record I don't think that he can which leads me towards an Inconclusive vote here.
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If The Tower transcends the concept of size or in other words "dimensionality" it should be 1-A then but I'm pretty sure that's not what it means. Even a 5th dimensional object would seem "beyond size" to us. So...context?Aeyu said:
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Now, the Tower is not "larger" than the Warp. But it is more "complex" in its size and scale. Every dimension (A.K.A. "floor") of the Tower contains its own multiverse, in which the entirety of every floor below that multiverse is contained within its atoms. This means there are entire multiverses contained within grains of sand, with those sand-grains existing in universes which are part of infinitely-large multiverses which are also contained within the mere atoms of the floor above, and so on and so forth, going on forever.
As far as the balcony goes, I've been using some terminology that's specific to The Dark Tower, so let me elaborate.
A "balcony" on the Dark Tower is explained as being (effectively) a place which is attached to the Tower, but exists outside of it. When someone creates a "balcony", they are creating a reality outside of reality, as shown/explained when one of the characters is revealed to be capable of creating one himself. In theanticlimax of The Dark Tower, the avatar of the Crimson King is shown as being trapped on a balcony on the side of the Tower (the physical one), but the actuality of it is that he's stuck in a place just barely outside of the confines of reality, able to do things like toss objects off said balcony, but unable to actually leave. It should be noted that the Crimson King's avatar is so powerful that a character required an amp from the Rose (the other linchpin of existence) in order to even affect him, yet when Roland and Patrick finally arrived to the Tower and found CK's avatar trapped, the latter had no powers, or even any real means of fighting them outside of a few pieces of the Old Ones' lost technology. The implications are that all of his power was simply stripped from him.
Granted, the Crimson King's avatar definitely had a body that was limited by a physical component of some sort (he's stated to have outright choked himself with a sharpened spoon at some point in the story), so I don't know how limited an "indeterminate mass of warp energy" would be if it were trapped in a location that was attached to the multiverse, yet outside of it.
As far as the balcony goes, I've been using some terminology that's specific to The Dark Tower, so let me elaborate.
A "balcony" on the Dark Tower is explained as being (effectively) a place which is attached to the Tower, but exists outside of it. When someone creates a "balcony", they are creating a reality outside of reality, as shown/explained when one of the characters is revealed to be capable of creating one himself. In the
Granted, the Crimson King's avatar definitely had a body that was limited by a physical component of some sort (he's stated to have outright choked himself with a sharpened spoon at some point in the story), so I don't know how limited an "indeterminate mass of warp energy" would be if it were trapped in a location that was attached to the multiverse, yet outside of it.
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"If you fell outward to the limit of the universe, would you find a board fence and signs reading DEAD END? No. You might find something hard and rounded, as the chick must see the egg from the inside. And if you should peck through the shell (or find a door), what great and torrential light might shine through your opening at the end of space? Might you look through and discover our entire universe is but part of one atom on a blade of grass? Might you be forced to think that by burning a twig you incinerate an eternity of eternities? That existence rises not to one infinite but to an infinity of them?
Perhaps you saw what place our universe plays in the scheme of things - as no more than an atom in a blade of grass. Could it be that everything we can perceive, from the microscopic virus to the distant Horsehead Nebula, is contained in one blade of grass that may have existed for only a single season in an alien time-flow? What if that blade should be cut off by a scythe? When it begins to die, would the rot seep into our universe and our own lives, turning everthing yellow and brown and desiccated? Perhaps it's already begun to happen. We say the world has moved on; maybe we really mean that it has begun to dry up.
Think how small such a concept of things make us, gunslinger! If a God watches over it all, does He actually mete out justice for such a race of gnats? Does His eye see the sparrow fall when the sparrow is less than a speck of hydrogen floating disconnected in the depth of space? And if He does see... what must the nature of such a God be? Where does He live? How is it possible to live beyond infinity?
Imagine the sand of the Mohaine Desert, which you crossed to find me, and imagine a trillion universes - not worlds by universes - encapsulated in each grain of that desert; and within each universe an infinity of others. We tower over these universes from our pitiful grass vantage point; with one swing of your boot you may knock a billion billion worlds flying off into darkness, a chain never to be completed.
Size, gunslinger... size.
Yet suppose further. Suppose that all worlds, all universes, met at a single nexus, a single pylon, a Tower. And within it, a stairway, perhaps rising to the Godhead itself. Would you dare climb to the top, gunslinger? Could it be that somewhere above all of endless reality, there exists a room?..."
Perhaps you saw what place our universe plays in the scheme of things - as no more than an atom in a blade of grass. Could it be that everything we can perceive, from the microscopic virus to the distant Horsehead Nebula, is contained in one blade of grass that may have existed for only a single season in an alien time-flow? What if that blade should be cut off by a scythe? When it begins to die, would the rot seep into our universe and our own lives, turning everthing yellow and brown and desiccated? Perhaps it's already begun to happen. We say the world has moved on; maybe we really mean that it has begun to dry up.
Think how small such a concept of things make us, gunslinger! If a God watches over it all, does He actually mete out justice for such a race of gnats? Does His eye see the sparrow fall when the sparrow is less than a speck of hydrogen floating disconnected in the depth of space? And if He does see... what must the nature of such a God be? Where does He live? How is it possible to live beyond infinity?
Imagine the sand of the Mohaine Desert, which you crossed to find me, and imagine a trillion universes - not worlds by universes - encapsulated in each grain of that desert; and within each universe an infinity of others. We tower over these universes from our pitiful grass vantage point; with one swing of your boot you may knock a billion billion worlds flying off into darkness, a chain never to be completed.
Size, gunslinger... size.
Yet suppose further. Suppose that all worlds, all universes, met at a single nexus, a single pylon, a Tower. And within it, a stairway, perhaps rising to the Godhead itself. Would you dare climb to the top, gunslinger? Could it be that somewhere above all of endless reality, there exists a room?..."
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A 5th dimensional object would be beyond size from our ability to perceive it though. We can only describe those sorts of objects with mathematical analogues. Also I read Gan's page and I'm aware of that aspect of The Tower but that does not make it larger than The Warp. The Warp could also fit such a thing inside it considering just it's surface is a Hilbert-space and it is infinitely deep.
If you think that The Tower transcends diomensionality then that by definition makes it 1-A. Make a content revision thread.
If you think that The Tower transcends diomensionality then that by definition makes it 1-A. Make a content revision thread.
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That's not necessarily true either. That's like you saying the same thing about space or time, things we can definitely measure. A 5-D object would just be of indeterminate coordinates in a dimension we can't perceive. That is not analogous to transcending size.
Infinitely deep means nothing though when you're talking about something that transcends an infinitely infinite layered existence. The thing literally transcends infinity itself.
Also, seeing as King and myself are the ones who have handled Gan and most of DT's tiering, I think we can handle that for ourselves, thanks.
Infinitely deep means nothing though when you're talking about something that transcends an infinitely infinite layered existence. The thing literally transcends infinity itself.
Also, seeing as King and myself are the ones who have handled Gan and most of DT's tiering, I think we can handle that for ourselves, thanks.
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I didn't say it was analogous to transcending size on a conceptual level but if a human was to somehow perceive a 5th dimensional object it would seem larger than anything possibly could be. They might describe it as being beyond size. So context matters (you've provided context now anyway so that's fine).
Again if something is transcending an infinite dimensional space then by the tiering system of this website it's 1-A. You're basically saying The Tower is beyond High 1-B by saying it transcends a Hilbert-space. You might be right that it does transcend those things but if that's true or you are using that interpretation of The Tower this is a mismatch/stomp anyway.
I can agree that The Tower is more complex or structured but I don't think that necessarily means that it's beyond the capabilities of something that could collapse The Warp in it's entirety. In any case I don't think Emps could actually do that. King has the balcony ever been used on something non-tangible before or just physical things like the avatar you mentioned?
Again if something is transcending an infinite dimensional space then by the tiering system of this website it's 1-A. You're basically saying The Tower is beyond High 1-B by saying it transcends a Hilbert-space. You might be right that it does transcend those things but if that's true or you are using that interpretation of The Tower this is a mismatch/stomp anyway.
I can agree that The Tower is more complex or structured but I don't think that necessarily means that it's beyond the capabilities of something that could collapse The Warp in it's entirety. In any case I don't think Emps could actually do that. King has the balcony ever been used on something non-tangible before or just physical things like the avatar you mentioned?
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You could still see a 3-D cross-section of them, so I don't think that that is a fair comparison in any case.
And no, it's not. You can transcend an infinite series of dimensions an infinite or even beyond infinite number of times and not qualify for 1-A. That being said, CK and Tower are likely to receive additional 1-A keys, but it's doubtful their main keys will change to any degree.
Whatever the case, even if he did destroy the Tower (Which I don't think he could) he definitely would not survive the destruction of all of existence that would happen as a result of that. Even Los' infinite-dimensional power source when destroyed sent reverberations throughout all of existence which caused anomalous events to happen in every reality.
And no, it's not. You can transcend an infinite series of dimensions an infinite or even beyond infinite number of times and not qualify for 1-A. That being said, CK and Tower are likely to receive additional 1-A keys, but it's doubtful their main keys will change to any degree.
Whatever the case, even if he did destroy the Tower (Which I don't think he could) he definitely would not survive the destruction of all of existence that would happen as a result of that. Even Los' infinite-dimensional power source when destroyed sent reverberations throughout all of existence which caused anomalous events to happen in every reality.
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> Mister Mxyzpltk being larger than anything we could perceive despite being made of space, time, and hypertime
Oh, uhm.
Oh, uhm.
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@Webcamparrot:
As far as I can recall, it was only ever used to contain the King's avatar. Naturally, the Tower doesn't really do a whole lot in the seriessince the story's centered a cowboy with enchanted guns and who the hell wants to give feats to a tower, so there isn't much to go on aside from the info on the multiverse's structure and the info on its animating deity-spirit, Gan.
Todash Darkness contains such non-tangible entities within itself, and the Beam Guardians as well as their opposites, the Demon Elementals, are nonphysical beings which are also held, so the Tower could have the potential to affect such an entity. It does restructure itself on a whim every time Roland completes his quest (or at least that's what I remember it doing), but we only ever really see it take action twice, and both of those times, the enemies happened to be physical beings.
As far as I can recall, it was only ever used to contain the King's avatar. Naturally, the Tower doesn't really do a whole lot in the series
Todash Darkness contains such non-tangible entities within itself, and the Beam Guardians as well as their opposites, the Demon Elementals, are nonphysical beings which are also held, so the Tower could have the potential to affect such an entity. It does restructure itself on a whim every time Roland completes his quest (or at least that's what I remember it doing), but we only ever really see it take action twice, and both of those times, the enemies happened to be physical beings.
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>1-A Tower
By its very definition, no.
>1-A Gan
That's definitely more plausible.
By its very definition, no.
>1-A Gan
That's definitely more plausible.
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@Azzy
There's a sleuth of DT characters that qualify for 1-A at this point, and more keys for those who come close. When the CRT for this comes around, we'll re-discuss all of this. (the previously held ratings) I was originally the one who had the firmest foot in the ground against a straight 1-A rating for characters before, and I've slightly changed my stance since then due to direct confirmations otherwise (Like Maerlyn arising first from the Outer Dark of the Prim, etc) which may convince me to lead a push for a third key for the DT god-tiers.
@King
Todash space is specifically referenced as a non-dimensional but arbitrary void, very similar to the Warp.
There's a sleuth of DT characters that qualify for 1-A at this point, and more keys for those who come close. When the CRT for this comes around, we'll re-discuss all of this. (the previously held ratings) I was originally the one who had the firmest foot in the ground against a straight 1-A rating for characters before, and I've slightly changed my stance since then due to direct confirmations otherwise (Like Maerlyn arising first from the Outer Dark of the Prim, etc) which may convince me to lead a push for a third key for the DT god-tiers.
@King
Todash space is specifically referenced as a non-dimensional but arbitrary void, very similar to the Warp.
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That's...strange. I can't think of anyone outside of the three we have, Nis and (possibly) Maerlyn who could ever hope to qualify for 1-A. And I've actually read the one-shot comics/guides which have info on the verse's deities. (A few of which seem more like myths than actual beings who exist)
And what quote refers to Todash as "non-dimensional" specifically? I only ever remember it being referred to as being the space/void between universes, as well as being the place which houses numerous creatures which took refuge there when the Prim receded.
Which, not all of those Todash creatures are 1-A, seeing as the creatures from The Mist (which are absolute fodder in the DT-verse) come from Todash Darkness.
And what quote refers to Todash as "non-dimensional" specifically? I only ever remember it being referred to as being the space/void between universes, as well as being the place which houses numerous creatures which took refuge there when the Prim receded.
Which, not all of those Todash creatures are 1-A, seeing as the creatures from The Mist (which are absolute fodder in the DT-verse) come from Todash Darkness.
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Todash is nothingness, is explicitly called a void without reality several times, is of a comparable (purposefully) nature to CMverse's Voids, and possesses any number of beings of lesser/greater complexity. Not everything in Todash Space is 1-A, but some things are. The SK wiki refers to it thusly: "Todash Space is the dimensionless nothingness that exists between alternate universes in the metaverse." Could have sworn I saw somewhere where it proved that Todash was ^ this, but I'll have to go back and look.
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A "void without reality" =/= an "undimensioned void", though. Otherwise we'd have countless verses with 1-A entities due to them inhabiting in some void which "holds no reality" or "exists outside of reality".
Anywho, whenever the CRT is finally put into motion, we can hash it out then. For now, we don't consider anything outside of Gan and Bessa's true selves to be 1-A, so we shouldn't be putting forth any notions of such until those ratings have been approved.
Anywho, whenever the CRT is finally put into motion, we can hash it out then. For now, we don't consider anything outside of Gan and Bessa's true selves to be 1-A, so we shouldn't be putting forth any notions of such until those ratings have been approved.
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Well, I wouldn't have brought it up were it not also related to the fact that I am pretty sure it has also been called dimensionless at least once.
And I'm not arguing about the ratings right now. I'm saying merely that they will be looked at again in the near future.
And I'm not arguing about the ratings right now. I'm saying merely that they will be looked at again in the near future.
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Anywho, I think a fair case has been made for a stalemate rather than a win for the Tower. I still maintain that Emprah can't bring it down under normal circumstances, and even if he does manage to find and demolish all of the Beams, the collapse of the Tower will end in his destruction as well. But, I'm not so sure anymore that the Tower would be capable of stopping him, at least not for good.
And if the Emperor goes for the Beams instead of the Tower itself, the Tower won't fight back. Like was mentioned before, the Warriors of the Scarlet Eye have been using the Breakers to shoot at those Beams for years (likely centuries, even) and it still hasn't made an effort to wipe them out.
So, yeah. Guess you can switch me over to Inconclusive.
And if the Emperor goes for the Beams instead of the Tower itself, the Tower won't fight back. Like was mentioned before, the Warriors of the Scarlet Eye have been using the Breakers to shoot at those Beams for years (likely centuries, even) and it still hasn't made an effort to wipe them out.
So, yeah. Guess you can switch me over to Inconclusive.
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