Humanity Revisions

[Tyloxtus]

I'm noticing some things that should be added to the humans profile in Undertale.

• It should be mentioned in Attack Potency that the equivalent of 6 Human SOULs was capable of erasing every human and monster on Earth
  
  
• The Humans key should get a higher on the end due to possessing equippables like the Worn Dagger and Empty Gun.
  
  
• They should gain Empowerment via getting stronger the more Determination (and likely Bravery, Justice, Integrity, Kindness, Perseverance, or Patience depending on their SOUL color) they have
  
  
• The ability to gain LOVE through killing should be added.
  
  
• All humans should have limited Immunity to Power Mimicry; SOUL power (including Determination) cannot be created artificially
  
  
• Humans should get superior Invulnerability via Technology, as the Cloudy Glasses and Torn Notebook add to INV immensely.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Agree on the most, but the last one makes no sense to me tbh

 

[Tyloxtus]

Agree on the most, but the last one makes no sense to me tbh

Humans naturally have INV. Those items give more INV. This makes them invulnerable for longer.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Humans naturally have INV. Those items give more INV. This makes them invulnerable for longer.

Then it must be “Limited Invulnerability for Soul; can be extended via Cloudy Glasses and Torn Notebook” I think.

 

[StrymULTRA]

It should be mentioned in Attack Potency that the equivalent of 6 Human SOULs was capable of erasing every human and monster on Earth

Flowey later says that he needs 7 SOULs to show to both monsters and human his "kill or be killed" thing though. Asgore even reinforces this through claiming that he'd need godlike power to destroy humanity, which needs 7 SOULs.

Aka the intro is fake and just a way of Flowey to mess with you.

The Humans key should get a higher on the end due to possessing equippables like the Worn Dagger and Empty Gun.

That sounds pretty useless though? We don't give a "higher" for items which only add a specific amount of points, they'd be worth only if they multiply stats, given the boost here is clear, otherwise it's pretty much unquantifiable.

They should gain Empowerment via getting stronger the more Determination (and likely Bravery, Justice, Integrity, Kindness, Perseverance, or Patience depending on their SOUL color) they have

Ok ig. Though only DT gives thus boost, other emotions making people powerful is headcanon tho, otherwise Alphys would have noticed it.

The ability to gain LOVE through killing should be added.

Problem it's that is verse mechanics here due to it applying to basically everyone in UT rather than a specific ability.

All humans should have limited Immunity to Power Mimicry; SOUL power (including Determination) cannot be created artificially

Issue here it's that a single human SOUL is as strong as the whole Underground, why would a scientist with far inferior materials be able to replicate something of that caliber?

Humans should get superior Invulnerability via Technology, as the Cloudy Glasses and Torn Notebook add to INV immensely.

Neutral here.

 

[Tyloxtus]

Flowey later says that he needs 7 SOULs to show to both monsters and human his "kill or be killed" thing though. Asgore even reinforces this through claiming that he'd need godlike power to destroy humanity, which needs 7 SOULs.

He still can't leave the Underground. Even a Boss Monster SOUL and a Human Soul fused together could have nuked a village of humans.

That sounds pretty useless though? We don't give a "higher" for items which only add a specific amount of points, they'd be worth only if they multiply stats, given the boost here is clear, otherwise it's pretty much unquantifiable.

Fight Undyne the Undying with no equips, and then with the Worn Dagger and Heart Locket, and tell me how significant the difference is. (Also we could assume the Real Knife and The Locket are standard human weapons too)

Problem it's that is verse mechanics here due to it applying to basically everyone in UT rather than a specific ability.

Well yeah, that still means Humanity gets it.

Issue here it's that a single human SOUL is as strong as the whole Underground, why would a scientist with far inferior materials be able to replicate something of that caliber?

It's not treated as something that's Alphys's fault at all. She can work with Determination from the SOULs absolutely fine.

 

[StrymULTRA]

He still can't leave the Underground. Even a Boss Monster SOUL and a Human Soul fused together could have nuked a village of humans.

Exactly. So him with 6 SOULs being able to one shot humanity is baseless.

Fight Undyne the Undying with no equips, and then with the Worn Dagger and Heart Locket, and tell me how significant the difference is. (Also we could assume the Real Knife and The Locket are standard human weapons too)

She can be defeated with the Tutu lmfao. Plus it's just not how we do things here, we give "higher" only for significant jumps or multipliers, not unquantifiable boosts.

Well yeah, that still means Humanity gets it.

Verse mechanics aren't powers, otherwise we say that everyone in Dragon Ball is Acasual or that everyone in Spiderverse is Low 2-C through messing with the canon events.

It's not treated as something that's Alphys's fault at all. She can work with Determination from the SOULs absolutely fine.

And that experiment literally ended up as a failure, so?

 

[Tyloxtus]

Exactly. So him with 6 SOULs being able to one shot humanity is baseless.

…6 SOULs are stronger than 1 SOUL and a Boss Monster SOUL.

She can be defeated with the Tutu lmfao. Plus it's just not how we do things here, we give "higher" only for significant jumps or multipliers, not unquantifiable boosts.

She can be defeated by anything. It’ll just take all day to do it.

Verse mechanics aren't powers, otherwise we say that everyone in Dragon Ball is Acasual or that everyone in Spiderverse is Low 2-C through messing with the canon events.

Good, so no Undertale character should be assigned any LOVE in any VS match ever

And that experiment literally ended up as a failure, so?

No, her attempt to bring back Fallen Down monsters ended up as a failure. Flowey was a huge success.

 

[StrymULTRA]

…6 SOULs are stronger than 1 SOUL and a Boss Monster SOUL.

This doesn't prove 6 SOULs can one shot humanity.

She can be defeated by anything. It’ll just take all day to do it.

Ok but... We don't give "higher" based on just game equipment, Undertale ain't exception here. And don't bring the Sea Tea, as that's a multiplier instead.

Good, so no Undertale character should be assigned any LOVE in any VS match ever

We don't know the LV of monsters anyway, and Frisk/Chara's LV barely matters in vs threads.

No, her attempt to bring back Fallen Down monsters ended up as a failure. Flowey was a huge success.

Because of Flowey being a soulless flower, thus not having the limits the monsters have. Nothing about Alphys having complete control over DT or something like that.

 

[Tyloxtus]

This doesn't prove 6 SOULs can one shot humanity.

Yeah, but the game itself does.

Ok but... We don't give "higher" based on just game equipment, Undertale ain't exception here. And don't bring the Sea Tea, as that's a multiplier instead.

We do if they're higher enough than their physicals.

We don't know the LV of monsters anyway, and Frisk/Chara's LV barely matters in vs threads.

Alright, so no Genocide Frisk.

Because of Flowey being a soulless flower, thus not having the limits the monsters have. Nothing about Alphys having complete control over DT or something like that.

Who made Flowey, Strym?

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Tbh now I disagree with Humanity thing, because even Asriel with basically seven human souls needed to concentrate very much to break the Barrier, so Omega Flowey seems incapable of doing that (also Barrier is not destroyed after that so)

 

[Tyloxtus]

I didn't say Photoshop Flowey broke the Barrier. I said he made all humans and monsters disappear.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

I didn't say Photoshop Flowey broke the Barrier. I said he made all humans and monsters disappear.

okay actually nvm

 

[StrymULTRA]

Yeah, but the game itself does.

Flowey later says that he needs 7 SOULs to show to both monsters and human his "kill or be killed" thing though. Asgore even reinforces this through claiming that he'd need godlike power to destroy humanity, which needs 7 SOULs.

Aka the intro is fake and just a way of Flowey to mess with you.

Keep wanking and ignoring.

We do if they're higher enough than their physicals.

Unquantifiable boost isn't "higher enough".

Alright, so no Genocide Frisk.

Yes.

Who made Flowey, Strym?

Same Flowey that can't beat Asgore no matter what? Makes me hard to believe Alphys can supposedly recreate the power of something far stronger than him.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Keep wanking and ignoring.

Unquantifiable boost isn't "higher enough".

Yes.

Same Flowey that can't beat Asgore no matter what? Makes me hard to believe Alphys can supposedly recreate the power of something far stronger than him.

Flowey killed everyone in the Underground, he just couldn’t find the souls, no?

 

[StrymULTRA]

Flowey killed everyone in the Underground, he just couldn’t find the souls, no?

He said himself he never could get past Asgore and that he wasn't able to convince in giving the SOULs either.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

He said himself he never could get past Asgore and that he wasn't able to convince in giving the SOULs either.

Yes, but do not forget that Flowey here is incapable of reseting, saving and loading. He did kill everyone when he had this ability.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Yes, but do not forget that Flowey here is incapable of reseting, saving and loading. He did kill everyone when he had this ability.

He talked of when he could lol. He literally said he tried hundreds of times.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

He talked of when he could lol. He literally said he tried hundreds of times.

Yes but it still means that Flowey > Asgore in 1v1.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Yes but it still means that Flowey > Asgore in 1v1.

I think you're genuinely stonewalling because I've already explained this. By his own words Flowey can't beat Asgore by his own before Frisk came in, and thus he could never get the SOULs either, he even describes the feeling of getting a SOUL inside his soulless body for the 1st time, implying he's never got the SOULs.

Only way he could kill Asgore is thanks to Frisk, there's more evidence hinting that even with LOADing Flowey could never beat Asgore.

 

[Tyloxtus]

You're assuming that just by killing Asgore that means he automatically gets the SOULs.

 

[StrymULTRA]

You're assuming that just by killing Asgore that means he automatically gets the SOULs.

Indeed. Plus there's a reason why he said to Frisk that he could never get past him after the latter defeated Asgore, and Flowey only killed Asgore when the latter was both off guard and almost dead.

And wanna know why? For the same reason the 6 humans couldn't beat Asgore despite being able to LOAD too, Frisk simply had so much DT compared to all of them that they could break through that unsurmountable wall that none before them could. There's literally 0 definitive evidence that someone before Frisk has ever defeated Asgore in the Underground.

 

[Tyloxtus]

Flowey was, notably, not killing anyone for LOVE.

Flowey was created after the other 6 SOULs were collected. SAVE and LOAD didn't exist when the others fell.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Flowey was, notably, not killing anyone for LOVE.

Flowey was created after the other 6 SOULs were collected. SAVE and LOAD didn't exist when the others fell.

This doesn't debunk Flowey being unable to kill Asgore without Frisk's help + Asgore wasn't surprised when Frisk told him that he's killed them already, implying he's aware of what LOADing is.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Posting it here because phone sucks.

https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpreview.redd.it%2F8xa6nc8q3cs51.jpg%3Fauto%3Dwebp%26s%3Df1c183dfc0f984db91dd933fae5c5045ae13f876

 

[Tyloxtus]

There's a dozen things he could've thought that means other than physical.

 

[StrymULTRA]

There's a dozen things he could've thought that means other than physical.

So now you just got out of arguments.

Flowey can't beat Asgore without outside help. No ifs or buts. I've yet to see a debunk to all the evidence I've sent.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

I think you're genuinely stonewalling because I've already explained this. By his own words Flowey can't beat Asgore by his own before Frisk came in, and thus he could never get the SOULs either, he even describes the feeling of getting a SOUL inside his soulless body for the 1st time, implying he's never got the SOULs.

Only way he could kill Asgore is thanks to Frisk, there's more evidence hinting that even with LOADing Flowey could never beat Asgore.

I am not. Flowey is saying that thanks to Frisk, Flowey wouldn’t get “past Asgore”. But under what circumstances is he saying that? That’s right, it is when Flowey has 0 control over saving and resetting. Also “getting past Asgore” might simply mean getting the souls. Meanwhile killing everyone means what it says: he killed everyone, including Asgore.

Why are you implying that killing Asgore would lead to anyone getting souls? If Asgore didn’t pull them up prior the beginning of the battle, we wouldn’t even see the souls. Even Flowey says that he “tried hundreds of ways to get Asgore to show him”. He had problems with convincing/tricking Asgore, not killing.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I am not. Flowey is saying that thanks to Frisk, Flowey wouldn’t get “past Asgore”. But under what circumstances is he saying that? That’s right, it is when Flowey has 0 control over saving and resetting. Also “getting past Asgore” might simply mean getting the souls. Meanwhile killing everyone means what it says: he killed everyone, including Asgore.

Flowey never tried to fight Asgore after Frisk came in, the hell are you talking about? He's obviously mentioning when he had access to the DT powers.

Plus this all debunks the OP notion that Alphys would be able to create something on the level of the Human SOULs, as her best invention (Flowey) wasn't 8-A at all.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Flowey never tried to fight Asgore after Frisk came in, the hell are you talking about? He's obviously mentioning when he had access to the DT powers.

Plus this all debunks the OP notion that Alphys would be able to create something on the level of the Human SOULs, as her best invention (Flowey) wasn't 8-A at all.

Again, “past Asgore” might mean to get the souls. Killing him does not grant souls. Also, if Frisk did (somehow) spare Asgore and befriend him before the Asgore’s critical HPs, Flowey would be left with nothing too. The reason why these interpretations are most likely to work is due to Flowey stating that he already killed everyone and retried everything, so my interpretations avoid contradiction in the statements, meanwhile interpretation of yours completely ignores the second statement.

I don’t really care specifically about this part, the purpose of my messages is to show the truth of what actually happened in the lore. Although saying that Alphys is “able to create Flowey” is just wrong: she did not create determination, the key factor of Flowey’s existence.