Hulk: an Immortal CRT

[DanielIH15]

I want to make some changes to the attack pottency part because Hulk became stronger when he came back that time in Avengers No Surrender, and this is not only stated, but it's supported by the feats. Hulk is now stronger than the combined might of Hercules and Thor (Jane Foster) and,besides Scarlet Witch. It was the only avenger that could injure the Challenger. He defeated Avengers (Robbie Reyes, Black Panther, Captain America Thor, Iron Man in his last version of the Hulk buster armor, that it should be stronger that his recent prime armor, and She Hulk) with Thor stating he's stronger now, and with Black Panther saying that he thought it was an impossibility to see his vibranium suit overloaded in the fight. Put a better fight against Nebulon than Namor and Silver Surfer. It was shown as as vastly superior to the Red Absorbing ma, who, at the time, was a Hulk.Defeated Red Hulk in Hell with ease too Voyager stated it was the stronger avenger in a team that had Scarlet Witch and Hercules. With this I don't trying to say Hulk is more powerful than SW at full, but restrained. Voyager doesn't know how powerful SW really is, and SW, when restrained, is 4-B, and Voyager knows the peak of SW 4-B showings, as she was the one who could defeat the Challenger. And finally, it was shown as superior to the Abomination shell that should be comparable to the original Abomination. (just see how the Abomination flies out when Hulk hits him, but that doesn't happens to Hulk when he hits back. Torn the shell with ease and, when Hulk has the opportunity, killed him easily) Also, Hulk have those power boosts that meant draining gamma from Maverick and Sasquatch. I have to say all of these feats, except one, were done without Devil Hulk increasing his strenght because at the time he was trying to keep calm not to lose control, to the point that everytime he got angry he put Savage Hulk in charge as a safety mechanism. So, I think that it might be necessary to point out that, as Devil Hulk, he is stronger now.

And, about the key, it would be called something like "Hulk at the end of all things". Just see this: https://imgur.com/gallery/pxykTrR

In this key he should have all his previous abilities to higher degree, specially his absorption since he was able to eat beings like Galactus, Franklin Richards, possibly the universal abstracts (Hulk said "and all the rest of them") and even the Sentience of the Cosmos, that it must be some kind of aspect of multi-Eternity, likely its heart, seeing that it's like the same thing that merged with Galactus at the end of 6th Cosmos, that it was the heart of that multiverse. So, it doesn't matter which tier this version is, he has a high 1-B absorption.

By looking through the abilities pages, I'm not sure how to call what he did to his body, maybe it just another type of body control, as it was able to control his own corporal mass by having a total control of his transformation, and with this he was capable of having many arms, several rows of teeth, lengthen his neck, and being bigger than any other Hulk seen before; besides the fact that now he can decides what part of the body transforms, as he just "hulked out" the half of his body.
This one surely has immortality negation, as he could kill Mr. Immortal by just breaking his neck, and Mr Immortal didn't resurrect and heal, just died.

Finally, this version should be 2-A by consuming Franklin Richards and Galactus, and presumably the rest of the cosmic entities.

The tier of what he will become after eating the Sentience of the Cosmos? That's for another CRT after Immortal #25 is released!

 

[Eficiente]

Huh, that's neat. I will later revisit that comic from which Galactus' quote comes from and see how powerful he should be after that. It would be "Initially 4-B, [?] at the end of all things".

 

[DanielIH15]

That was from last issue (#24. Except for the two first ones, those are from #20), and to me it was like the craziest, most unexpected (in a good way) to literally everything. Here you can see the Sentience of the Cosmos is what fused with Galactus during the end of 6th Cosmos, that was, in fact, the 6th Cosmos itself.

I agree for what you say about the tier, I like the "initailly 4-B, [?] at the end of all things" idea. Okay, I'll wait then. And what do you think about the attack potency thing?

 

[Antvasima]

This version of the Hulk killed Franklin, Galactus, and the Sentience of the Multiverse, yes, but Al Ewing explicitly does not care at all about logical powerscaling, and it is also an alternative future version of the character. Then again, he may have been empowered by The One Below All.

 

[DanielIH15]

I don't think it's somekind of alternative version of the character, but the canonical future of the character, until something else says otherwise, because what happens there is the really end of Multiverse and it affects Marvel as whole. And, yes, he could be empowered by the One Below All (although we don't know if it's true), but that doesn't mean he couldn't have a key with those statistics. A power up is a power up, it doesn't matter the source, I think. And about the scaling, well, characters get extremely high, unbelievable power ups and buffs, fiction is like that sometimes, so I don't see any problem of adding a key or something to the wiki about this.

But if adding it is a problem, we can wait until next issue, it could be better just add what Hulk will become after that, as it will be more justified (Hulk will become a higher entity, he fused with the Sentience of the Cosmos after all)

 

[Antvasima]

I think that Mark Waid is writing the current canonical (history and) future of the Marvel universe, in which Franklin Richards seems destined to become the new Galactus in the 9th Cosmos.

Regardless, there are several versions of the Marvel future, and this one does not seem prominently featured enough to warrant a profile yet.

 

[DanielIH15]

Well, Ewing said that the first view, and maybe only view, to the 9th Cosmos will be on Immortal Hulk, not another, so... But, well, let see what next Immortal Hulk issues has to say. You talking about History of the Marvel universe remembered me that I haven't read the last two issues. Huh. How good they are? I liked the first one.

I'll wait for what Eficiente has to say about the attack potency and stuff, and, after that, we can finish this (for now)

Edit: here what Ewing said https://www.marvel.com/articles/comics/immortal-hulk-25-we-re-gonna-need-a-bigger-book

 

[Antvasima]

The HOTMU comics are pretty good, although I largely dislike the changes that Jason Aaron has made to Marvel history.

 

[DanielIH15]

I haven't read (yet) his Avengers run. Has he changed anything else, besides much of Thor's mythos (which most of those changes were... very, very, extremely far from being the best IMO)? In some way, it would have been great if Aaron would left the character after that good Thor: God of Thunder vol. 1

I already read the HOTMU issues and, yes, you're right, they're good and entertaining. Just three days and two months to see how ends

Oh, and I forgot to link this one: https://mobile.twitter.com/multiversitycom/status/1180218093676703744 There Ewing said that Immortal Hulk will be the first and maybe only story about the 9th Cosmos.

 

[Antvasima]

Aaron messed with Kirby's setup that the Celestials engineered the potential for superhuman abilities in humanity and made it into a disgusting accident instead.

He also inserted a team of Avengers 1 million years ago. Never mind that humanity has not existed for nearly that long.

 

[DanielIH15]

Oh, that's really bad, really bad. I like the Celestials A LOT, and that part was one of my favorites about them.
I knew about the Avengers team of 1 millions years ago. In fact, I liked that idea, and, not knowing anything about them, I assumed something like that the "humans" there were like Homo Erectus, but they look like Homo Sapiens, because they were changed by the forces that were shown there (The Phoenix, Ghost Rider, the Panther God I think and the Starbrand). But seeing that's not the case, yes, it doesn't have any sense that they're Homo Sapiens...

 

[A_Stoned_Orc]

Pretty sure Starbrand is a Neanderthal, at least.

 

[DanielIH15]

By lookikg the pictures, he could be the only one that is not a big anachronism, yes

 

[Antvasima]

Neanderthals technically lived at most 450000 years ago, but alright then.

 

[Antvasima]

Anyway, is there anything left to do here?

 

[DanielIH15]

I thought he was something older than a neanderthal by a picture, but I saw other drawings and, yes, he's a neanderthal, so is still an anachrinism...
Anyway, yes, it left to say if the attack potency part (that Hulk is stronger now) is accepted or not . I put the evidence in message #41

 

[Antvasima]

Let's wait and see more of this version of the Hulk first.

 

[DanielIH15]

Of course, to clarify, just in case, I talking about Devil Hulk, Hulk in the present, not at the end of all things,.because it was stated by Thor in the fight against the Avenger that Hulk is stronger than before, "vastly so", and defeats with extreme ease people with whom he used to be comparable, and all of this without getting angry, just base strenght. But, okay, if you think that more evidence is needed, no problem. Having said that, I think I don't have anything more to say.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, that still does not warrant a higher than 4-B rating.

Okay. Should I close this thread then?

 

[DanielIH15]

I know, that doens't give anything higher than 4-B. I was expecting just a clarification in the green Hulk key that he's stronger as Devil Hulk, as he can do things that not even an enraged Savage Hulk can do, and with base strenght. Something like "Solar system level (comparable to Thor and empowered the force field that halted Exitar) Higher as Devil Hulk (stated by Thor to be vastly stronger than before)". Just that, nothing more. It would be like that clarification in The Sentry profile, that says that, after Sentry merges with the Void, he became stronger. Is there any problem with that?

Yes, you can close this. Thanks for the help

Edit: Hold on! There's still an ability I forgot to put here and see if it get accepted. My apologies. Give me time to find the evidence and post it here.

.

 

[Likelytierzero]

I think Immortal Hulk has enough feats to upgrade his tier.

1.Thor said that Hulk is stronger than before. https://m.imgur.com/gallery/pzbGAba

2.Absorbed Dormammu attack. https://m.imgur.com/a/5oXvxfU

3.Absorbing Man has absorbed the power of Green Door and brought it to Hulk. https://m.imgur.com/a/ujZM3uD

4.Killed Franklins Richard and Galactus. https://m.imgur.com/a/R1ZOMez

 

[The_Impress]

@Likelytierzero

Hulk's power level is vastly varied due to his "anger", so the greater strength statements are hard to exactly quantify since his actual AP is somewhat dynamic.

Alongside that, modern Dormammu is quite weak compared to his classic incarnations, and the Absorbing Man thing doesn't imply any statistic change that is permanent.

The last feat literally contradicts every character involved's canon it is downright hilarious, and a massive outlier. Al Ewing I think reallllyyy doesn't care about scaling at all, since this Devil Hulk is getting dangerously close to those "Weak AF Street Tier kills the Marvel Universe" comics.

I will admit the current incarnations of Thor and Hulk are somewhat higher than their classic incarnations, but as of now, we aren't sure to what extent, and are waiting for a lieu of better feats for a consistent ranking. For all it's worth it may be just a writer thing, not actual shifts in power levels.

 

[Davidsteel1]

In regards to killing Franklin and Galactus there's clearly lots of context missing, seeing as it apparently happens well over 2 billion years in the future of the current time period. There's also the apparent implication that he's being powered by TOBA at that time- a character whose power level is undefined but clearly implied to be massive.

 

[Antvasima]

Zark is correct, and in addition, as David said, this is an alternative future version of the Hulk who is likely empowered by The One Below All.

Is there anything else left to do here, or can we close this thread?

 

[The_Impress]

I reckon we can, but the OP wants another ability introduced and added that he originally forgot to list in their post

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[DanielIH15]

@Zark2099 About Hulk dynamic power, I want to say, as I already explained, that Hulk did all of the feats I posted without getting angry, all of them were done with base strenght, because Devil Hulk didn't want to get angry.
About Dormammu's feat, I think that could be consistent with what he shown at the End of All Things, that he's able to absorb things far above his normal tier (We have never seen the limits of his absortion as far I remember, and he also was able to have/bear within himself a third part of Nyx power), but that's just a posibility. Anyway, I don't want to upgrade Hulk for that feat, that one could be easily an outlier.
I think that's not contradictory (storywise) at all, as it will happen literally moments before the really end of everything (the synopsis of the next Immortal Hulk issue indicates that the death that the universe will suffer is its heat death, when final entropy is reached [something that is even hinted in HOTMU, Franklin said something like "final entropy isn't yet complete", so even HOTMU could happen before that flashforward in Immortal Hulk #24] and the heat death of the universe is something that will happen in 10^100 years. So it will happen far, far, extremely far in the future.) How an story set that far in the future could be contradictory? Even Mr Immortal is there (someone who is destined to see the end of everything, but normally the writers forget this). If you say it's contradictory because it contradicts prophecies and stuff, the Sentience of the Cosmos itself says that everything went wrong and not intended things to the cosmic destiny happened, possibly because of the influence of an evil entity (the One Below All, probably) and Hulk actions. And, so far, we don't know if it's an outlier or not. As DavidSteel1 said, at the moment of doing that, he could have been empowered by the One Below All or grew stronger somehow during those trillions and trillions and trillions (and more) of years, and, until History of the Marvel Universe #6 and Immortal Hulk #25, we don't know for sure if this is an alternative future or not (I think it's not, but that's another thing). However, I already accepted that there's not enough info to add it as a new key for now so, to me, there's no need to discuss this here anymore. About the Absorbing Man, he just gave Hulk back the gamma he already took from him (he opened the Green Door with the gamma he took from Hulk, nothing more or less), so that don't give him any power up of any kind.

Finally, it's not a writer tread thing the reason Hulk is stronger (I don't know Thor). Just see how Thor states Hulk is stronger and that BP thought his vibranium suit was enough to resist Hulk strenght, but it wasn't (his stament is also a proof, as he thought Hulk was as strong as before, but he realizes it's not the case). Also, as I said, those statements are supported by the facts, because he's shown as vastly superior to people he used to be comparable (Like Hercules, Thor, Silver Surfer, Red Hulk, Namor, The Abomination, etc) and this is just with his base strenght only. He also took gamma from Sasquatch and Maverick, something that made him stronger. And when someone asked Ewing how was possibly that Hulk defeated Thor that easily, he answered "Hulk is stronger now", somethng that Thor himself said. About this, I just want a clarification in his attack potency justification that, as Devil Hulk, he's stronger than before as Savage Hulk, nothing more. it would be like what Sentry page says about his attack potency, that he became stronger after he merged with the Void. Not another tier or something, just a clarification.

@Ant Zark is right, I forgot to add an ability and right now I'm collecting the evidence. Probably I'll post it tonight or tomorrow.

 

[The_Impress]

What are you actually trying to argue here? I legit do not understand. None of those feats are usable anyhow, so why bother putting a gigantic paragraph to explain to me what I've already typed as such.

Is it like, a change that you wanna propose?

 

[DanielIH15]

Basically? I was giving my opinion about why what Immortal Hulk #24 shows could be not contradictory or and outlier, as you say, or an alternative future, as Ant says. And I wrote a lot because I wanted to give a complete explanation of my opinion. It's just my opinion, and share it is something I can do, I think. Not discussing, just giving my opinion. I'm sorry if it caused any inconvenience.

But in the last part, the one I really care, I'm trying to see if there's any problem to put a clarification in Hulk profile that, as Devil Hulk, he's stronger than before as Savage Hulk, something that is backed up by statements and feats. (Devil Hulk in calm state is even stronger than a enraged Savage Hulk by the way, because all feats, including the one where Thor says Hulk is stronger than before, except one, were made when Devil Hulk didn't can get angry because at the time he was trying to keep calm not to lose control, to the point that everytime he got angry he put Savage Hulk in charge as a safety mechanism, as I already explained) I don't want to change his tier, just to put the clarification.

About the other missing ability, I want to notify I'm still collecting evidence, so probably I'll get it ready tomorrow. Edit: I found another evidence about Devil Hulk being stronger than Savage Hulk, I'll post it tomorrow too.

 

[The_Impress]

Well, it contradicts the future as told by Deathurge to Mister Immortal, alongside the future as present in Despicable Deadpool (which has Cable be the one who is at the end of it) both of which are futures, not a prophecy, so it is one of the possible futures. Using the "future" statement is legit pointless IMO, since Marvel has a habit of contradicting itself alot, hell some futures imply characters like Gwenpool and Sandman survive everything (as in, everything else is dead.) So like, are those character's futures irrelevant now because the Mary Sue-Hulk willed himself as such?

I think it's better to wait? I think he has potentially higher feats in the future as Devil Hulk, given the buildup he's getting, so it's slightly better to kinda wait for that?

 

[A_Stoned_Orc]

I kinda think I agree more with Zark, here.


While I don't see Hulk as a Mary Sue, I agree that it's probably better to wait over the whole "AP" thing until more feats are given to us in the comics.

Don't forget that Devil Hulk reverts to Savage if he's emotionally upset enough, yet seems not to lose any strength, so IDK what to do there.

 

[DanielIH15]

@Zark2099 You have a good point there and I understand it very well. I think it doesn't contradict what Deathurge said (Mr. Immortal is there, just got killed moments before the really end because not intended things to the Cosmos happened), but it contradicts the other futures, yes. And no, those futures aren't irrevelant just because Hulk comic said it (I'm with A Stoned Orc here, it's not a Mary Sue, or it's to soon to called it like that, it will be if we don't get any explanation before Ewing run ends), but because:
1) Collecting the evidence for the las ability, I saw that, during the Hulk in Hell arc, which occurs in the present , the Sentience of the Cosmos talked with Bruce and told him "I'll speak to you again in due time" and, well, now we see that it did.
2) What happened there lead to Hulk next issue, which it will be set in the 9th Cosmos, the next multiverse, so it'll be the continuation of all Marvel continuity as whole, and, seeing what Ewing have said, with Hulk on it, which would connect it directly with the end of the last issue.
But, anyway, next issue will talk by itself, I think.

Okay, we can wait, no problem, you're right, maybe as Devil Hulk he will show higher feats in the future. I thought it would be fine to note that as Devil Hulk he's stronger than before because Sentry page has a clarification on Merged Sentry similar to the one I propose with Hulk, although that Sentry form only has a single feat, which only shows that he is stronger than before. While Hulk has even statements. But no problem, we can wait. If someone is interested, the last evidence I found about this, it's that, in Immortal Hulk #15, Samson could resist a beating from Savage Hulk, and even stopped one of his punches (which it mean that Samson is weaker than Savage Hulk, but still comparable), but when they fought against the gamma mutated animals in IM #16, Samson has problems with one, while Devil Hulk defeated them extremely easily. So Samson can fight Savage Hulk, but Devil Hulk is vastly stronger than Samson (I don't post the scans because it's not needed, I already accepted that it's better to wait if Devil Hulk do higher feats before making modifications to Hulk AP justification) (Sorry for the text wall)

@AStonedOrc About last thing, I think that, seeing what happened in last issue in his fight against Fortean, he's able to get angry now., or I understand it like that. And I think he didn't get weaker despite being calm because Devil Hulk is THAT strong in calm state, in base strength he's stronger than an enraged Savage Hulk.



Finally, the last ability I want to see if it can be accepted is something like claryvoyance+information analysis (I think he has already Information anaylisis, but with this we can see he can analyze more things than just magic objects). This ability comes with what Banner calls "magical thinking" . It's like an unscientific, irrational way to think and analyze information, that allow Hulk to know things he shouldn't and to reach correct conclusions with little, or some cases, 0 evidence. As you'll see in the scans below:

1) He knew that Langowski was possessed.

2) He discovered that taking gamma from Sasquatch would stop the possession. (you can see it in the scan I posted in the original post about Hulk absorbing gamma from people)

3) He noticed that he was been fooled by his father.

4) He knew that Rick corpse was stole

5) After fighting the gamma mutated animals, he could see that it was a trap.

6) Knew that the fish tank connected with that office, and helped Joe to notice it.

7) Knew that something was bad in that town, and that the corpse was Stephen Strange before seeing the body.

8) Knew how to have access to Nyx power in the shard, something that Nightmare or Nyx herself didn't know.

9) Knew about Euphoria, a planet he shouldn't even know the name, but he did anyway (somehow he even knew that it was a sentient planet that makes dream comes true, as we saw in those Silver Surfer comics) , and knew that the night shard was there.

And, as you can see in the scans that explains the magical thinking, 6 and 7, he's able to communicate his discoverings (?) with the other personas, especially in the forms of hunches and gut feelings. Also, this makes Devil Hulk smarter than Banner.

Thanks to Yobo Blue, because without his comment about this, I would have forgotten this ability.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Immortal Hulk is so ******* weird and different from all other Hulk runs that it might as well be a separate key.

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

Immortal Hulk is so ******* weird and different from all other Hulk runs that it might as well be a separate key.

Agreed.

 

[A_Stoned_Orc]

Love it, though. There's good shit in those books. Wish Joe would get a chance to be big, ugly, and gray in a suit again, though.

 

[DanielIH15]

@Mathew I thought about that, but I didn't propose it because this wiki treats the Green Hulk key almost like a composite made of any green (canonical) Hulk that it's not Green Scar, and I didn't see any problem to keep it that way.

@Astonedorc Yeah, you're right, to me this run has been very entertaining, even the less good issues don't bore. And I think we' will see Joe as Grey Hulk soon, we just have to be patient.

Anyway, what do you think about the last ability?

 

[Antvasima]

I am fine with if somebody is willing to move all of the Immortal Hulk/Devil Hulk abilities and statistics into a separate key.

 

[DanielIH15]

We can do that, yes, but before someone have to see if the last ability I posted is fine.
Also, if we're going to make a Devil Hulk key, which abilities are exclusive to him? We would have to determine that first. Of course, immortality, and the ones related to this, aren't exclusive to Devil Hulk, as when he was killed by Red Harpy, he was Savage Hulk at the moment, and in the past he has died even as Banner, and he could resurrect. Personally, I think that the abilities exclusive to Immortal/Devil Hulk are: body control, the thing of smelling lies and stuff, the resistance to illusions and fear manipulation, the magical thinking and the ability to change between the personas, because he's the one who put them in charge depending of the case. Maybe the absorption part too, not sure.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[DanielIH15]

I'll post it again because this way is easier to read.

The last ability I want to see if it can be accepted is something like clairvoyance+information analysis (I think he has already Information anaylisis, but with this we can see he can analyze more things than just magic objects). This ability comes with what Banner calls "magical thinking" . It's like an unscientific, irrational way to think and analyze information, that allow Hulk to know things he shouldn't and to reach correct conclusions with little, or some cases, 0 evidence. As you'll see in the scans below:

1) He knew that Langowski was possessed.

2) He discovered that taking gamma from Sasquatch would stop the possession. (you can see it in the scan I posted in the original post about Hulk absorbing gamma from people)

3) He noticed that he was been fooled by his father.

4) He knew that Rick corpse was stole

5) After fighting the gamma mutated animals, he could see that it was a trap.

6) Knew that the fish tank connected with that office, and helped Joe to notice it.

7) Knew that something was bad in that town, and that the corpse was Stephen Strange before seeing the body.

8) Knew how to have access to Nyx power in the shard, something that Nightmare or Nyx herself didn't know.

9) Knew about Euphoria, a planet he shouldn't even know the name, but he did anyway (somehow he even knew that it was a sentient planet that makes dream comes true, as we saw in those Silver Surfer comics) , and knew that the night shard was there.

And, as you can see in the scans that explains the magical thinking, 6 and 7, he's able to communicate his discoverings (?) with the other personas, especially in the forms of hunches and gut feelings. Also, this makes Devil Hulk smarter than Banner.