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How far into low 2-C is DBS?
- Thread starter Zamasu_Chan
- Start date
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Promo material tends to be wrong, using the same series as a reference it points out to MUI being >>> Base Jiren who is > Belmod.
We have no direct comparison between Beerus and Belmod in the Anime outside Whis' statement which was kinda rejected, but it was on point with the rumor that Whis confirmed it was true. So Belmod being in Beerus' ballpark is not far-fetched.
Not to mention the manga (since there are no more ways to compare both GoDs) doesn't have them so different from each other in power. You can even make an argument for Belmod > Beerus in the Manga. No reason to believe MUI = Beerus while UI Omen > Belmod IMO. That's a one shot worthy gap.
We have no direct comparison between Beerus and Belmod in the Anime outside Whis' statement which was kinda rejected, but it was on point with the rumor that Whis confirmed it was true. So Belmod being in Beerus' ballpark is not far-fetched.
Not to mention the manga (since there are no more ways to compare both GoDs) doesn't have them so different from each other in power. You can even make an argument for Belmod > Beerus in the Manga. No reason to believe MUI = Beerus while UI Omen > Belmod IMO. That's a one shot worthy gap.
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...Doesn't Beerus pretty much single-handedly take on all the other GoDs at once in the manga version of the opening of the ToP?
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Ultra Instinct.
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UI. When the fight becomes a AllvAll Belmod had the capacity to kill everyone and even when he got attacked by Liquir he wasn't any damaged at all and just pretended to be injured as he didn't need to get healed, he likely wasn't even trying in that fight.A Stoned Orc said:
He was confident on top of that so his strength isn't far from Beerus.
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bruhOvrhide said:
If it's not stated, we can't assume otherwise without resorting to headcanon
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Um technically speaking headcanon is also assuming there is a crucial power difference between them when that also has not been shown in the Anime. So it goes both ways, I don't understand though because honestly when Whis literally states that Belmod is stronger than Beerus, we take Beerus' "It was just an arm wrestling match." to face value as if Beerus is not an extremely prideful god that lacks humility and wouldn't want to put over another for the sake of his reputation. In the manga, this is quite literally the same as Belmod faked his injury against Liquir and Beerus while given tons of praise for his UI, was still caught by Masco and had to use all his strength to get out and he also nearly stalemated with Quitela. If the Manga proved anything it was that Beerus was more skilled than most GoD but not on a higher level of Power or AP, he was beat up and required healing like the rest of them.Ovrhide said:
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In theory.
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There's more evidence that all of the GoDs are in the same range of power than there is of one or two GoDs being exponentially stronger than any of the others, at least in the Anime
therefore we can assume that Base Jiren's, MUIS Goku's, and FPSSJ Ikari Broly's GoD scaling should be around equal
therefore we can assume that Base Jiren's, MUIS Goku's, and FPSSJ Ikari Broly's GoD scaling should be around equal
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What I tried to argue before is that you can't assume any of the GoDs are stronger than the other because it's not stated
You responded by saying that we can't assume that they are in the same range of power since it's not stated
therefore
if we can assume neither "They are roughly equal" nor "They are not roughly equal"...
then what the *** are we supposed to do?
Think about that for a sec
You responded by saying that we can't assume that they are in the same range of power since it's not stated
therefore
if we can assume neither "They are roughly equal" nor "They are not roughly equal"...
then what the *** are we supposed to do?
Think about that for a sec
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- Thread starter
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Toppo is stated to be hakaishin level so...
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thank god someone else said it before meZamasu Chan said:
I was always wondering why characters like SSGSSE Vegeta weren't stronger than Beerus at this point
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Vegeta outright defeated a GoD-level opponent, to be sure, but Toppo was a "newborn" God of Destruction. It's arguable that he should be expected to be weaker than Sidra, Liquir, Beerus, etc.
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That, in-itself, shows that the Gods of Destruction vary greatly in power though. SS Broly is already multiple times Toppo's power, and Beerus scales to thousands of times that. You also have to consider that Beerus (and Champa) are over 65 million years old, but that doesn't have to be the case for any other Destroyer.
Overall, if you are going to make a claim (that GoDs are all comparable) then you need to provide sufficient evidence for that claim. There is plenty of sufficient scaling and evidence that GoDs vary greatly in power thanks to Toppo, so why should anyone believe that any random GoD is as strong as Beerus?
Overall, if you are going to make a claim (that GoDs are all comparable) then you need to provide sufficient evidence for that claim. There is plenty of sufficient scaling and evidence that GoDs vary greatly in power thanks to Toppo, so why should anyone believe that any random GoD is as strong as Beerus?
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SSJ Ikari Broly >>>>>> Toppo?CryoTheMayo said:
I'm confused
Toppo was fighting on par with SSGSSE Vegeta, who, by scaling to SSGSS Kaioken x20 Goku, should be about 20 times stronger than SSGSS Goku or Vegeta
SSJ Ikari Broly's (not FP) only feats were easily dominating SSGSS Goku and SSGSS Vegeta and beating up Golden Frieza
From what I can see, Toppo should be at least 10 times stronger than SSJ Ikari Broly, if not a little less
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I really hope we get a Broly arc if/when twoper returns, just so they can state/show the difference in power between Jiren and Broly or w/e
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Toppo was fighting on par with SSGSSE Vegeta, who, by scaling to SSGSS Kaioken x20 Goku, should be about 20 times stronger than SSGSS Goku or Vegeta
Broly's Super Saiyan inherits traits from his Wrath State, which is a 10x multiplier. So Broly's Super Saiyan is Great Ape x Super Saiyan or 50x Wrath.
This is evident in how base Gogeta scales around or above SSB Goku (dodges Broly's blasts easily, can keep up) and then his Super Saiyan 1 matched Broly's Super Saiyan Wrath.
As you say, GoD Toppo scales to 20x Post-UIS2 SSB Goku but Broly's Wrath Super Saiyan scales to 50x Post-UI SSB Goku. Broly should stomp GoD Toppo quite easily.
To add further, claiming Broly is only 2x SSB Goku is horribly incorrect when considering context.
To add further, Super Saiyan is 5x more powerful than Wrath (which equals Great Ape), so SS Broly would be 5x Blue at the absolute minimum.
Scaling:
SS Broly = SS Gogeta >> Golden Frieza > SSB Goku + SSB Vegeta >> Base Gogeta >/= Goku Blue >/= Wrath Broly
SS Broly, at minimum, is a quarter of GoD Toppo's power and is easily argued to be over twice GoD Toppo's strength by scaling to SS Gogeta or pointing out that Wrath and Super Saiyan are blatantly being stacked.
Broly's Super Saiyan inherits traits from his Wrath State, which is a 10x multiplier. So Broly's Super Saiyan is Great Ape x Super Saiyan or 50x Wrath.
This is evident in how base Gogeta scales around or above SSB Goku (dodges Broly's blasts easily, can keep up) and then his Super Saiyan 1 matched Broly's Super Saiyan Wrath.
As you say, GoD Toppo scales to 20x Post-UIS2 SSB Goku but Broly's Wrath Super Saiyan scales to 50x Post-UI SSB Goku. Broly should stomp GoD Toppo quite easily.
To add further, claiming Broly is only 2x SSB Goku is horribly incorrect when considering context.
- SSB Goku and SSB Vegeta combined are heavily exhausted and have to flee SS Broly in under a minute
- Their combination attacks, at most, budged Broly slightly and their Galick Kamehameha was torn through
- Golden Frieza fought SS Broly for over an hour without running out of stamina (still had enough to stay in Golden, when we see energy loss can force him out of Golden in the ToP)
- The novel (which is accepted on the wiki) expands on their fight and describes that Frieza's attacks could slow Broly down slightly, phasing him
- Broly opted to dodge Frieza's full-force blows whereas he chose to barrel through Galick Kamehameha and tank the combined attacks of Goku and Vegeta
To add further, Super Saiyan is 5x more powerful than Wrath (which equals Great Ape), so SS Broly would be 5x Blue at the absolute minimum.
Scaling:
SS Broly = SS Gogeta >> Golden Frieza > SSB Goku + SSB Vegeta >> Base Gogeta >/= Goku Blue >/= Wrath Broly
SS Broly, at minimum, is a quarter of GoD Toppo's power and is easily argued to be over twice GoD Toppo's strength by scaling to SS Gogeta or pointing out that Wrath and Super Saiyan are blatantly being stacked.
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oh yeah right this wiki accepts SSJ multipliers now
ok that proves that Beerus is stronger than GoD Toppo, I guess.
However, none of Jiren's, MUIS Goku's, nor FP SSJ Broly's GoD scalings scale to Toppo
and Toppo is the only example we have of a GoD being vastly inferior to another GoD. The Other GoDs have no such statements (except for Beerus > Champa, but since that statement Beerus and Champa have fought i think twice afterwards, and they seemed evenly matched, which implies that the gap either doesn't exist or isn't large), and Belmod > Beerus (which was arm wrestling, and not an example of actual combat, plus it was never stated whether or not that match was one-sided or not).
So essentially we have 1 piece of evidence implying that 1 GoD (who isn't even an official GoD yet) is vastly inferior to one of the others
and much, MUCH more evidence implying that all of the official GoDs are in the same range of power
ok that proves that Beerus is stronger than GoD Toppo, I guess.
However, none of Jiren's, MUIS Goku's, nor FP SSJ Broly's GoD scalings scale to Toppo
and Toppo is the only example we have of a GoD being vastly inferior to another GoD. The Other GoDs have no such statements (except for Beerus > Champa, but since that statement Beerus and Champa have fought i think twice afterwards, and they seemed evenly matched, which implies that the gap either doesn't exist or isn't large), and Belmod > Beerus (which was arm wrestling, and not an example of actual combat, plus it was never stated whether or not that match was one-sided or not).
So essentially we have 1 piece of evidence implying that 1 GoD (who isn't even an official GoD yet) is vastly inferior to one of the others
and much, MUCH more evidence implying that all of the official GoDs are in the same range of power
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ok that proves that Beerus is stronger than GoD Toppo, I guess.
FPSS Broly pushed Gogeta into Blue and managed to make him get serious at the end of their fight, when SS Gogeta was equal to SS Broly. Goku compares Broly to Beerus in power.
Broly (and by extension, Beerus) are both easily hundreds, maybe thousands, of times more powerful than GoD Toppo.
However, none of Jiren's, MUIS Goku's, nor FP SSJ Broly's GoD scalings scale to Toppo
They surpass GoDs, they don't specify a specific GoD, just the GoDs. Them scaling above the GoDs doesn't mean the GoDs are all comparable. Just that they surpass that scaling chain.
and Toppo is the only example we have of a GoD being vastly inferior to another GoD.
Anime-wise, the only scaling supporting GoDs being comparable is a mock sparring match between three GoDs, who were very obviously trying to entertain Zeno rather than win.
except for Beerus > Champa, but since that statement Beerus and Champa have fought i think twice afterwards, and they seemed evenly matched, which implies that the gap either doesn't exist or isn't large
They have NEVER fought. At the absolute maximum, they had brief clashes that Whis and Vados stopped. They literally state if Gods of Destruction fight, it could mean the destruction of multiple universes.
and Belmod > Beerus (which was arm wrestling, and not an example of actual combat, plus it was never stated whether or not that match was one-sided or not).
Beerus seriously denies the notion that warrants as a measure of strength and the scaling between FPSS Broly, Belmod and Base Jiren would reject the notion that Belmod is anywhere near Beerus.
FPSS Broly >/= Beerus > Base Jiren >> UIS Goku >> Belmod >> GoD Toppo
There is absolutely zero evidence or scaling for Belmod being anywhere near Beerus, besides that singular contested arm-wrestling statement.
So essentially we have 1 piece of evidence implying that 1 GoD (who isn't even an official GoD yet) is vastly inferior to one of the others
He is literally called a God of Destruction by everyone in-universe out of universe. Being 'official' doesn't mean a thing here.
and much, MUCH more evidence implying that all of the official GoDs are in the same range of power
The 'evidence' is highly lacking, contested and overall flawed.
FPSS Broly pushed Gogeta into Blue and managed to make him get serious at the end of their fight, when SS Gogeta was equal to SS Broly. Goku compares Broly to Beerus in power.
Broly (and by extension, Beerus) are both easily hundreds, maybe thousands, of times more powerful than GoD Toppo.
However, none of Jiren's, MUIS Goku's, nor FP SSJ Broly's GoD scalings scale to Toppo
They surpass GoDs, they don't specify a specific GoD, just the GoDs. Them scaling above the GoDs doesn't mean the GoDs are all comparable. Just that they surpass that scaling chain.
and Toppo is the only example we have of a GoD being vastly inferior to another GoD.
Anime-wise, the only scaling supporting GoDs being comparable is a mock sparring match between three GoDs, who were very obviously trying to entertain Zeno rather than win.
except for Beerus > Champa, but since that statement Beerus and Champa have fought i think twice afterwards, and they seemed evenly matched, which implies that the gap either doesn't exist or isn't large
They have NEVER fought. At the absolute maximum, they had brief clashes that Whis and Vados stopped. They literally state if Gods of Destruction fight, it could mean the destruction of multiple universes.
and Belmod > Beerus (which was arm wrestling, and not an example of actual combat, plus it was never stated whether or not that match was one-sided or not).
Beerus seriously denies the notion that warrants as a measure of strength and the scaling between FPSS Broly, Belmod and Base Jiren would reject the notion that Belmod is anywhere near Beerus.
- Jiren is too strong for Belmod to ever defeat (to the extent that Belmod spread the rumor)
- A magazine scan (our only source for scaling Beerus) claims that UI Goku is 'possibly' stronger than Beerus
- UIS is accepted as an at least 40x Blue multiplier
- FPSS Broly is thousands of times more powerful than Post-UI SSB Goku
- Jiren was too powerful for UIS Goku to defeat
FPSS Broly >/= Beerus > Base Jiren >> UIS Goku >> Belmod >> GoD Toppo
There is absolutely zero evidence or scaling for Belmod being anywhere near Beerus, besides that singular contested arm-wrestling statement.
So essentially we have 1 piece of evidence implying that 1 GoD (who isn't even an official GoD yet) is vastly inferior to one of the others
He is literally called a God of Destruction by everyone in-universe out of universe. Being 'official' doesn't mean a thing here.
and much, MUCH more evidence implying that all of the official GoDs are in the same range of power
The 'evidence' is highly lacking, contested and overall flawed.
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since most of what you said above agreed with my points, I'm only gonna mention the stuff which I don't agree with
"They have NEVER fought. At the absolute maximum, they had brief clashes that Whis and Vados stopped. They literally state if Gods of Destruction fight, it could mean the destruction of multiple universes."
If I remember correctly, they fought during the baseball game, and they were both severely brused and battered even after the brief confrontation
"UIS is accepted as an at least 40x Blue multiplier"
Just want to clarrify: Is this because UIS Goku > SSGSS Kaioken Goku + SSGSSE Vegeta via performance against Jiren?
"The 'evidence' is highly lacking, contested and overall flawed."
Most of the GoDs are featless. So it's pretty safe to say that most of them scale to each other, no? Although I agree that not all GoDs are created equal, we can't make up random power differences between multiple featless beings with the same status in the godly hierarchy.
Overall, now that you showed me the scaling chain, this makes a lot more sense to me. FPSSJ Ikari Broly, BUW Jiren, and MUIS Goku should be in the same range of power.
"They have NEVER fought. At the absolute maximum, they had brief clashes that Whis and Vados stopped. They literally state if Gods of Destruction fight, it could mean the destruction of multiple universes."
If I remember correctly, they fought during the baseball game, and they were both severely brused and battered even after the brief confrontation
"UIS is accepted as an at least 40x Blue multiplier"
Just want to clarrify: Is this because UIS Goku > SSGSS Kaioken Goku + SSGSSE Vegeta via performance against Jiren?
"The 'evidence' is highly lacking, contested and overall flawed."
Most of the GoDs are featless. So it's pretty safe to say that most of them scale to each other, no? Although I agree that not all GoDs are created equal, we can't make up random power differences between multiple featless beings with the same status in the godly hierarchy.
Overall, now that you showed me the scaling chain, this makes a lot more sense to me. FPSSJ Ikari Broly, BUW Jiren, and MUIS Goku should be in the same range of power.
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also, on a completely unrelated note, why is destroying U6 and U7 considered 2C again? I forgot why and I can't find the source
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Because Kaioshin Realms/infinitely branching timelines.
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If I remember correctly, they fought during the baseball game, and they were both severely brused and battered even after the brief confrontatio
They had gag bruises and lumps in a gag episode. Whis and Vados literally state if they fought seriously, it would cause the destruction of multiple universes.
Using that episode for scaling feels silly, honestly.
Just want to clarrify: Is this because UIS Goku > SSGSS Kaioken Goku + SSGSSE Vegeta via performance against Jiren?
It's due to staff believing UIS Goku should stomp KKX20 Goku, rationalising that he would have to be at least twice his power level due to his massive power, speed, etc leap.
Most of the GoDs are featless. So it's pretty safe to say that most of them scale to each other, no?
No, it isn't. Beerus is stronger than Champa, and Toppo is vastly weaker than Beerus. That's three Gods of Destruction in the anime alone that are stated or depicted as having power gaps.
Again, there is more argument for them NOT being comparable relative to them being comparable.
Although I agree that not all GoDs are created equal,
They aren't created. From what we have seen, GoDs are trained from mortals into Gods. Look at Toppo becoming a GoD, the existence of GoD candidates, Beerus and Champa being twins and so on.
If we were to go into manga territory, it's even shown that Belmod was a member of the Pride Troopers, a good friend of Jiren's master and became a GoD after leaving the Pride Troopers. So we certainly know that GoDs = trained Mortals is approved by Toriyama due to its presence in the anime and manga alike.
we can't make up random power differences between multiple featless beings with the same status in the godly hierarchy.
There are multiple instances of power differences among the same TRAINED status in the TRAINED godly hierarchy and little to no 'made up random comparable powers' presented in the anime or manga.
We know full well that the powers of the GoDs wildly vary with Beerus being thousands of times more powerful than GoD Toppo. Acting like every GoD is thousands of times the power of Toppo is plain silly when they have no feats indicating as such.
Overall, we know the GoDs trained from being mortals. We know a mortal who becomes a GoD is thousands of times weaker than another GoD and we have no reason to think any of these GoDs are veterans like Beerus, outside of Belmod, Champa and Quitela. Toppo's very existence proves that a power of a GoD doesn't end at 'GoD-level'. The level of a GoD varies from a lowly new GoD like Toppo to a veteran super trained GoD like Beerus.
You also have to note that Toppo's decision to become a GoD wasn't a limit of power, it was a limit of his self-morality and philosophy restraining him from accepting the position. Assuming the power isn't static, this means a rookie GoD could actually be MUCH weaker than GoD Toppo.
In conclusion, there is lacking evidence for GoDs all being comparable, and considerable evidence that they can vary wildly in power by thousands of times.
They had gag bruises and lumps in a gag episode. Whis and Vados literally state if they fought seriously, it would cause the destruction of multiple universes.
Using that episode for scaling feels silly, honestly.
Just want to clarrify: Is this because UIS Goku > SSGSS Kaioken Goku + SSGSSE Vegeta via performance against Jiren?
It's due to staff believing UIS Goku should stomp KKX20 Goku, rationalising that he would have to be at least twice his power level due to his massive power, speed, etc leap.
Most of the GoDs are featless. So it's pretty safe to say that most of them scale to each other, no?
No, it isn't. Beerus is stronger than Champa, and Toppo is vastly weaker than Beerus. That's three Gods of Destruction in the anime alone that are stated or depicted as having power gaps.
Again, there is more argument for them NOT being comparable relative to them being comparable.
Although I agree that not all GoDs are created equal,
They aren't created. From what we have seen, GoDs are trained from mortals into Gods. Look at Toppo becoming a GoD, the existence of GoD candidates, Beerus and Champa being twins and so on.
If we were to go into manga territory, it's even shown that Belmod was a member of the Pride Troopers, a good friend of Jiren's master and became a GoD after leaving the Pride Troopers. So we certainly know that GoDs = trained Mortals is approved by Toriyama due to its presence in the anime and manga alike.
we can't make up random power differences between multiple featless beings with the same status in the godly hierarchy.
There are multiple instances of power differences among the same TRAINED status in the TRAINED godly hierarchy and little to no 'made up random comparable powers' presented in the anime or manga.
We know full well that the powers of the GoDs wildly vary with Beerus being thousands of times more powerful than GoD Toppo. Acting like every GoD is thousands of times the power of Toppo is plain silly when they have no feats indicating as such.
Overall, we know the GoDs trained from being mortals. We know a mortal who becomes a GoD is thousands of times weaker than another GoD and we have no reason to think any of these GoDs are veterans like Beerus, outside of Belmod, Champa and Quitela. Toppo's very existence proves that a power of a GoD doesn't end at 'GoD-level'. The level of a GoD varies from a lowly new GoD like Toppo to a veteran super trained GoD like Beerus.
You also have to note that Toppo's decision to become a GoD wasn't a limit of power, it was a limit of his self-morality and philosophy restraining him from accepting the position. Assuming the power isn't static, this means a rookie GoD could actually be MUCH weaker than GoD Toppo.
In conclusion, there is lacking evidence for GoDs all being comparable, and considerable evidence that they can vary wildly in power by thousands of times.
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Toppo's existence should prove that the GoD chain varies. Anyway, Broly should be comfortably above Toppo.
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"They had gag bruises and lumps in a gag episode. Whis and Vados literally state if they fought seriously, it would cause the destruction of multiple universes. Using that episode for scaling feels silly, honestly."
I thought all filler episodes were considered canon in the anime?
"No, it isn't. Beerus is stronger than Champa, and Toppo is vastly weaker than Beerus. That's three Gods of Destruction in the anime alone that are stated or depicted as having power gaps. Again, there is more argument for them NOT being comparable relative to them being comparable."
Then what about the other GoDs then? Do they all scale to GoD Toppo?
"They aren't created. From what we have seen, GoDs are trained from mortals into Gods. Look at Toppo becoming a GoD, the existence of GoD candidates, Beerus and Champa being twins and so on."
It's just an expression. I'm taking US History in school, and I'm just mixing quotes here
I thought all filler episodes were considered canon in the anime?
"No, it isn't. Beerus is stronger than Champa, and Toppo is vastly weaker than Beerus. That's three Gods of Destruction in the anime alone that are stated or depicted as having power gaps. Again, there is more argument for them NOT being comparable relative to them being comparable."
Then what about the other GoDs then? Do they all scale to GoD Toppo?
"They aren't created. From what we have seen, GoDs are trained from mortals into Gods. Look at Toppo becoming a GoD, the existence of GoD candidates, Beerus and Champa being twins and so on."
It's just an expression. I'm taking US History in school, and I'm just mixing quotes here
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Let me just add this,
For the most part, most of the GoD are in an equal echelon when it comes to power. This is displayed when Arak, Liquir and Iwen all were sparring on par with each other on equal footing and when Beerus and Champa have their disputes throughout the show. The only evidence we have to a GoD scale is Sidra from the anime being unable to destroy Frieza with his hakai and on the opposite spectrum we have a statement from Whis stating that Belmod is as strong or possibly stronger than Beerus. While some like to write off Belmod >= Beerus due to them not actually fighting but going at it in an arm wrestling match, Sidra's evidence of being a weaker GoD could be written off as well.
Here's the problem with Sidra's case, he specifically said that he gave his guy "some" of his GoD energy underestimating the power of Frieza. It's honestly expected from a destroyer god especially since the strongest in your universe are a bunch of fodder and Sidra had no prior knowledge of Frieza's power. Sidra then tells Roh, LITERALLY after the latter told him that Frieza may be stronger than him, that if they added Frieza to the team and Frieza rebelled then he would just simply destroy him proving Frieza is not really a problem for Sidra, just an inconvience to his not well thought out plan. Sidra also was one of the few to be able to quickly react to Beerus' attacks in the manga only being taken out by Belmod's sneak attack.
The point is the GoD tier seems to be very limited in range as there's only two mortal individuals that have actually been stated or implied to surpass the tier, Goku and Jiren. While Toppo is a canidate for Belmod's position there still seems to be a power gap between him and the other GoDs period not just one. He also shows a lack of control with his energy. So while Toppo is up there and is nearly breaching the tier he still isn't on a level where he could confidently hold his own.
For the most part, most of the GoD are in an equal echelon when it comes to power. This is displayed when Arak, Liquir and Iwen all were sparring on par with each other on equal footing and when Beerus and Champa have their disputes throughout the show. The only evidence we have to a GoD scale is Sidra from the anime being unable to destroy Frieza with his hakai and on the opposite spectrum we have a statement from Whis stating that Belmod is as strong or possibly stronger than Beerus. While some like to write off Belmod >= Beerus due to them not actually fighting but going at it in an arm wrestling match, Sidra's evidence of being a weaker GoD could be written off as well.
Here's the problem with Sidra's case, he specifically said that he gave his guy "some" of his GoD energy underestimating the power of Frieza. It's honestly expected from a destroyer god especially since the strongest in your universe are a bunch of fodder and Sidra had no prior knowledge of Frieza's power. Sidra then tells Roh, LITERALLY after the latter told him that Frieza may be stronger than him, that if they added Frieza to the team and Frieza rebelled then he would just simply destroy him proving Frieza is not really a problem for Sidra, just an inconvience to his not well thought out plan. Sidra also was one of the few to be able to quickly react to Beerus' attacks in the manga only being taken out by Belmod's sneak attack.
The point is the GoD tier seems to be very limited in range as there's only two mortal individuals that have actually been stated or implied to surpass the tier, Goku and Jiren. While Toppo is a canidate for Belmod's position there still seems to be a power gap between him and the other GoDs period not just one. He also shows a lack of control with his energy. So while Toppo is up there and is nearly breaching the tier he still isn't on a level where he could confidently hold his own.
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- Thread starter
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It's best that we call them equals to be safe cause this is ridiculous.
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It's still about DBS stupid numbers. It's just that GoD scaling, Jiren and Broly are the epitome of DBS stupid numbers.ZERO7772 said:
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I thought all filler episodes were considered canon in the anime?
They are, but claiming Beerus and Champa fought seriously is like claiming Beerus fought SSG Goku seriously. Whis and Vados very clearly stated that if they ever fought seriously, it would cause multiple universe erasure.
Trying to scale Champa from a scuffle (where they only suffered gag damage) to Beerus' level is like trying to scale SSG Goku to Beerus-level because he wounded Beerus. It doesn't make any sense.
Then what about the other GoDs then? Do they all scale to GoD Toppo?
Scaling the GoDs to Beerus is wank, due to them having no basis or scaling for it other than 'they are also Gods of Destruction'. Typically, if you are going to VS debate about them you'd want to scale them to the minimum power of a GoD (Toppo) rather than the maximum power of a GoD (Beerus).
So yes, in regards to a VS Debate you should scale them to 'at least' Toppo-level rather than definitely or likely Beerus-level. They are, at most, possibly Beerus-level unless scaling indicates otherwise.
It's just an expression. I'm taking US History in school, and I'm just mixing quotes here
I figured as much, but it was an interesting piece of lore that supports my stance here so I decided to use it as a platform to argue for that piece of lore.
They are, but claiming Beerus and Champa fought seriously is like claiming Beerus fought SSG Goku seriously. Whis and Vados very clearly stated that if they ever fought seriously, it would cause multiple universe erasure.
Trying to scale Champa from a scuffle (where they only suffered gag damage) to Beerus' level is like trying to scale SSG Goku to Beerus-level because he wounded Beerus. It doesn't make any sense.
Then what about the other GoDs then? Do they all scale to GoD Toppo?
Scaling the GoDs to Beerus is wank, due to them having no basis or scaling for it other than 'they are also Gods of Destruction'. Typically, if you are going to VS debate about them you'd want to scale them to the minimum power of a GoD (Toppo) rather than the maximum power of a GoD (Beerus).
So yes, in regards to a VS Debate you should scale them to 'at least' Toppo-level rather than definitely or likely Beerus-level. They are, at most, possibly Beerus-level unless scaling indicates otherwise.
It's just an expression. I'm taking US History in school, and I'm just mixing quotes here
I figured as much, but it was an interesting piece of lore that supports my stance here so I decided to use it as a platform to argue for that piece of lore.
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It's still about DBS stupid numbers. It's just that GoD scaling, Jiren and Broly are the epitome of DBS stupid numbers.
Wat? You absolutely don't need to compare those to figure out some DB numbers.
IMO Gogeta is the best candidate to figure this out and the highest bar we have who is not angel level with clear numbers stacked to his transformation.
Wat? You absolutely don't need to compare those to figure out some DB numbers.
IMO Gogeta is the best candidate to figure this out and the highest bar we have who is not angel level with clear numbers stacked to his transformation.
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It's easy to just say Beerus and Broly are 50% of 2-C and Gogeta is somewhere over 50% of 2-C, making them the strongest Low 2-Cs in terms of raw AP.
If you want to actually scale them, however, you can say:
SS = 50x
SS2 = 2x SS
SS3 = 2x SS2
SSG = 2x SS3
SSB = 50x SSG
Post-UIS2 Goku Blue > Merged Zamasu, who is baseline and Base Gogeta is comparable to Post-ToP SSB Goku.
50 x 2 x 2 x 2 x 50 = 20,000x.
SSB Gogeta, the strongest Low 2-C, is at least 20,000x baseline.
What I'm arguing and what they are arguing is about the scaling for specific characters such as GoDs, Broly, Jiren and Goku. It's already very easy to argue the scaling for Low 2-C for the top tiers, it's harder to argue the scaling between said top tiers.
How strong are GoDs? How strong is Beerus? What about Jiren? Answering these three questions illuminate the scaling chain for Dragon Ball and makes it easier to determine 2-Cs, considering Champa = 50% 2-C.
Considering GoD Toppo is over 20x Baseline (scaled from Post-UIS2 Goku) and Gogeta curbstomped Broly (who is comparable to Beerus) we can say the scale of a GoD is around 20x upwards to 10,000x baseline. That's a 500x difference between GoDs.
Base Jiren was stronger than UIS3 Goku, who should be 1/250th of Beerus' power (40x Baseline). We can say LB Jiren and UI Goku are at least 2x that.
LB Jiren and UI Goku = 1/100th of Beerus (give or take)
FPSS Broly = possibly stronger than Beerus
Gogeta = upwards to 2x FPSS Broly
Do you now understand why the scaling between GoDs, Broly and Jiren is considered to be important by me? By simply scaling, the best I can define Jiren and Goku as would be 100x weaker than Beerus, yet people argue that Base Jiren > Beerus due to Base Jiren > Belmod.
Even if Base Jiren was stronger than Beerus, that arises the issue of LB Jiren being vastly stronger than Base Jiren. That implies LB Jiren and UI Goku are 2-C but Gogeta is only possibly 2-C.
In conclusion, there is massive variance in power here with different arguments. It muddles up discussion, scaling and general debate on AP. That is why it's important to scale the Gods of Destruction properly, and determine if Base Jiren should only scale above Belmod rather than all GoDs.
If you want to actually scale them, however, you can say:
SS = 50x
SS2 = 2x SS
SS3 = 2x SS2
SSG = 2x SS3
SSB = 50x SSG
Post-UIS2 Goku Blue > Merged Zamasu, who is baseline and Base Gogeta is comparable to Post-ToP SSB Goku.
50 x 2 x 2 x 2 x 50 = 20,000x.
SSB Gogeta, the strongest Low 2-C, is at least 20,000x baseline.
What I'm arguing and what they are arguing is about the scaling for specific characters such as GoDs, Broly, Jiren and Goku. It's already very easy to argue the scaling for Low 2-C for the top tiers, it's harder to argue the scaling between said top tiers.
How strong are GoDs? How strong is Beerus? What about Jiren? Answering these three questions illuminate the scaling chain for Dragon Ball and makes it easier to determine 2-Cs, considering Champa = 50% 2-C.
Considering GoD Toppo is over 20x Baseline (scaled from Post-UIS2 Goku) and Gogeta curbstomped Broly (who is comparable to Beerus) we can say the scale of a GoD is around 20x upwards to 10,000x baseline. That's a 500x difference between GoDs.
Base Jiren was stronger than UIS3 Goku, who should be 1/250th of Beerus' power (40x Baseline). We can say LB Jiren and UI Goku are at least 2x that.
LB Jiren and UI Goku = 1/100th of Beerus (give or take)
FPSS Broly = possibly stronger than Beerus
Gogeta = upwards to 2x FPSS Broly
Do you now understand why the scaling between GoDs, Broly and Jiren is considered to be important by me? By simply scaling, the best I can define Jiren and Goku as would be 100x weaker than Beerus, yet people argue that Base Jiren > Beerus due to Base Jiren > Belmod.
Even if Base Jiren was stronger than Beerus, that arises the issue of LB Jiren being vastly stronger than Base Jiren. That implies LB Jiren and UI Goku are 2-C but Gogeta is only possibly 2-C.
In conclusion, there is massive variance in power here with different arguments. It muddles up discussion, scaling and general debate on AP. That is why it's important to scale the Gods of Destruction properly, and determine if Base Jiren should only scale above Belmod rather than all GoDs.
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Consider the following:
Scenario 1 -
Scenario 1 -
- Base Jiren is stronger than Belmod, and all GoDs are considered comparable
- Beerus > Champa
- Champa is 50% of 2-C
- Therefore LB Jiren is 2-C, due to being vastly stronger than Base Jiren.
- FPSS Broly is Low 2-C, Gogeta is possibly 2-C and UI Goku is 2-C.
- GoDs vary greatly in power (500x gap between Toppo and Beerus at least)
- All GoDs must be at least 50% 2-C, due to the statement that two GoDs fighting would destroy multiple universes
- Base Jiren > Belmod and is much stronger in LB, with Belmod not having much scaling to Beerus
- LB Jiren, UI Goku and SSB Gogeta are all 2-C. Beerus and FPSS Broly are possibly 2-C (due to Beerus possibly being much stronger than other GoDs, who are generally 50% 2-C).
- Champa is much weaker than Beerus due to his many anti-feats and statements (can't perceive Dyspo, frightened by Hit and Goku, stated to be weaker than Beerus, etc)
- Golden Frieza blitzed Dyspo and could react to Dyspo's Super Light Bullet, thus Frieza > Champa
- Champa is 50% 2-C.
- Frieza, Goku, Vegeta, Toppo, Jiren, Broly, Gogeta, Beerus and potentially 17 are all 2-C due to being much stronger than Champa by Post-ToP.
- Suddenly, dozens of DBS characters are 2-C based on this claim.
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Why is that feat even Low Multiversal? They weren't going to do it in one hit, so it's Baseline Universal+ and not Half Low Multiversal.
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@CryoTheMayo
There's no way SSJG is only twice as strong as SSJ3
Before I start arguing, though, is there a thread where people agreed to this?
There's no way SSJG is only twice as strong as SSJ3
Before I start arguing, though, is there a thread where people agreed to this?
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Goku goes from 4B to 3A after getting the transformationZERO7772 said:
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