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Honkai: Star Rail Discussion Thread

PedjaTarzan said:
well.. i guess phainon 3-B feat and welt statement abt lord ravagers should put all emanators at a consistent 3-B, cornerstone level to downscaling 10x of emanators and for rest well they are 4-C or just unknown (lingsha bailu tingyun etc)
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Emanators in Galaxy or Multigalaxy, it is coherent, and consistent.

My criticism was precisely about how there is a correlation between the power of Nikador and the final 3-B result of Phainon's feat.

The feat is only obtained after 33550336 cycles where he obtained 12 coreflames, I suppose that the power of the coreflames could be determined by dividing the final result between the cycles, and then between the coreflames.

A small Star level looks more accurate for most characters, but it's still a bit of a stretch. In any case, yes, it's better than saying anyone is galaxy.
 
BlackLight said:
Emanators in Galaxy or Multigalaxy, it is coherent, and consistent.

My criticism was precisely about how there is a correlation between the power of Nikador and the final 3-B result of Phainon's feat.

The feat is only obtained after 33550336 cycles where he obtained 12 coreflames, I suppose that the power of the coreflames could be determined by dividing the final result between the cycles, and then between the coreflames.

A small Star level looks more accurate for most characters, but it's still a bit of a stretch. In any case, yes, it's better than saying anyone is galaxy.
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well Titans and Demigods are actually made from Nanook THEMSELVES, as they are fuel for an Aeon to burn the universe, i dont think putting them to low 4-C is fitting when they can shown realtivity to dan heng and traiblazer, who already have fought characters like phantylia aventurine and sunday.
I think they can fit well in the cornerstone tiers.
 
PedjaTarzan said:
well Titans and Demigods are actually made from Nanook THEMSELVES, as they are fuel for an Aeon to burn the universe, i dont think putting them to low 4-C is fitting when they can shown realtivity to dan heng and traiblazer, who already have fought characters like phantylia aventurine and sunday.
I think they can fit well in the cornerstone tiers.
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Let's say there are several nuances.

The stelaron is also a fragment of Nanook, and its power is stipulated as a planet Buster, with the ability to interfere with paths in presumably SS range.

The dang heng thing can also be translated as "a planet devouring beast", in fact, if I recall correctly, vidyahara are part of Long's scions.

Precisely what is seen in Long's trailer

The sunday the protagonists faced was nerfed by Acheron's cut.

The characters don't necessarily scale linearly from the phantalya feat, due to the fact that at least mathematically speaking, they didn't receive all the energy from the star.

Jade uses planets as jewels, so the fact that they are above the planet level is very telling.
 
BlackLight said:
Let's say there are several nuances.

The stelaron is also a fragment of Nanook, and its power is stipulated as a planet Buster, with the ability to interfere with paths in presumably SS range.

The dang heng thing can also be translated as "a planet devouring beast", in fact, if I recall correctly, vidyahara are part of Long's scions.

Precisely what is seen in Long's trailer

The sunday the protagonists faced was nerfed by Acheron's cut.

The characters don't necessarily scale linearly from the phantalya feat, due to the fact that at least mathematically speaking, they didn't receive all the energy from the star.

Jade uses planets as jewels, so the fact that they are above the planet level is very telling.
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what are you even trying to say here?
 
PedjaTarzan said:
what are you even trying to say here?
Click to expand...
That the starting point for scalling and the level of most of the characters should be understood as a "higher than planet level" instead of "higher than Star level".

It is true that both are ambiguities in themselves, but the work supports the former more than the latter.

By this I do NOT mean that there are no Star lvl, SS, MSS, or Galaxy characters.

But the level of most of them, Trailblazer, March, Welt Yang, Dang Heng, The generals of loufu, stelaron hunters, and a long etc. They should just be "higher to planet level" and not "Galaxy or Star".

At the time of scaling, a lot of nuances are being omitted.
 
BlackLight said:
That the starting point for scalling and the level of most of the characters should be understood as a "higher than planet level" instead of "higher than Star level".

It is true that both are ambiguities in themselves, but the work supports the former more than the latter.

By this I do NOT mean that there are no Star lvl, SS, MSS, or Galaxy characters.

But the level of most of them, Trailblazer, March, Welt Yang, Dang Heng, The generals of loufu, stelaron hunters, and a long etc. They should just be "higher to planet level" and not "Galaxy or Star".

At the time of scaling, a lot of nuances are being omitted.
Click to expand...
no they are not, if you read Jing yuan or Feixiao profile youd see that they are explicitly stated to be not inferior to lord ravagers, and if you saw the fight with phantylia you would know that.
I dont know what typa scaling you buy but im not putting generals at star level if they can keep up with characters that are easily galaxy level.
same goes with express here but instead they would scale of aventurine and the cornerstone members having 1/10th power of an emanator which is again gonna be into tier 3.
i dont rly get what you are trying to say, but as of now i dont see any issue with them hangin in the level where lord ravagers and other emanators are, where in fact generals are an emanator level.
Kinda tired rn so ill argue when crt drops or when im not lazy
 
BlackLight said:
That the starting point for scalling and the level of most of the characters should be understood as a "higher than planet level" instead of "higher than Star level".

It is true that both are ambiguities in themselves, but the work supports the former more than the latter.

By this I do NOT mean that there are no Star lvl, SS, MSS, or Galaxy characters.

But the level of most of them, Trailblazer, March, Welt Yang, Dang Heng, The generals of loufu, stelaron hunters, and a long etc. They should just be "higher to planet level" and not "Galaxy or Star".

At the time of scaling, a lot of nuances are being omitted.
Click to expand...
Dude, even if they're not stated as galaxies.. It's literally the most common feat for them to destroy star systems, ain't no way that's just planet level when destroying Glamoth itself gets you Large Planet in itself and Zephyro casually destroying stars (It's stated as star, not planet btw) in the myriad celestia
 
Unrelated to all this, but on a scale of 1-10, how crazy do you think I’d be if I put Feixiao and Phainon in the same team with the former as a sub-DPS for the latter?
 
Hsharpe said:
Unrelated to all this, but on a scale of 1-10, how crazy do you think I’d be if I put Feixiao and Phainon in the same team with the former as a sub-DPS for the latter?
Click to expand...
literally doing more damage than good for both of them, this aint genshin where proper artifacts surpass team comp sadly (i learnt it hard way)
 
PedjaTarzan said:
well.. i guess phainon 3-B feat and welt statement abt lord ravagers should put all emanators at a consistent 3-B, cornerstone level to downscaling 10x of emanators and for rest well they are 4-C or just unknown (lingsha bailu tingyun etc)
Click to expand...
I feel like Welt's statement would just make Lord Ravagers and Arbiter-Generals comparable as a collective not necessarily individually. Which the nuance of such would mean you can have significant weaker and stronger characters in each group.
 
PedjaTarzan said:
no they are not, if you read Jing yuan or Feixiao profile youd see that they are explicitly stated to be not inferior to lord ravagers, and if you saw the fight with phantylia you would know that.
I dont know what typa scaling you buy but im not putting generals at star level if they can keep up with characters that are easily galaxy level.
same goes with express here but instead they would scale of aventurine and the cornerstone members having 1/10th power of an emanator which is again gonna be into tier 3.
i dont rly get what you are trying to say, but as of now i dont see any issue with them hangin in the level where lord ravagers and other emanators are, where in fact generals are an emanator level.
Kinda tired rn so ill argue when crt drops or when im not lazy
Click to expand...
I think its quite dubious to suggest at all Lord Ravagers galaxy level anyways. The feat of destroying a galaxy was specifically attributed to Zephyro iirc. Whom is the strongest Lord Ravager, so I don't see why Phantiliya (who might be the weakest lowkey) would also get that scaling.
 
Community_Gamer said:
I feel like Welt's statement would just make Lord Ravagers and Arbiter-Generals comparable as a collective not necessarily individually. Which the nuance of such would mean you can have significant weaker and stronger characters in each group.
Click to expand...
Do we even have anything that put one general above another? The closest one i saw is Sushang claiming Feixiao is stronger but thats all?
Community_Gamer said:
I think its quite dubious to suggest at all Lord Ravagers galaxy level anyways. The feat of destroying a galaxy was specifically attributed to Zephyro iirc. Whom is the strongest Lord Ravager, so I don't see why Phantiliya (who might be the weakest lowkey) would also get that scaling.
Click to expand...
They are all pretty much stated to be able to do so, so i dont think its limits it to Zephyro and Phainon, also we dont know if Phantylia is the weakest we are yet to see her true form at all since she also has countless forms scattered around the cosmos.
 
PedjaTarzan said:
Do we even have anything that put one general above another? The closest one i saw is Sushang claiming Feixiao is stronger but thats all?
Click to expand...
I'm not claiming they are notably stronger than each other.
PedjaTarzan said:
They are all pretty much stated to be able to do so, so i dont think its limits it to Zephyro and Phainon, also we dont know if Phantylia is the weakest we are yet to see her true form at all since she also has countless forms scattered around the cosmos.
Click to expand...
I don't know if Welt is saying they've all been shown to destroy a galaxy OR one or two of them have, therefore he's assuming they all can. Phantiliya and Celenova are fairly recent Lord Ravager so they don't have a lot of feats in lore. I don't know which interpretation is the most valid. I just want to know what the rationalization is for one interpretation being more valid than the other.

Why do you think she has a "true form"? She's a heliobi; her true form is energy. If anything, the form we fought her in could be stronger than her normal bodies.
 
Community_Gamer said:
I'm not claiming they are notably stronger than each other.

I don't know if Welt is saying they've all been shown to destroy a galaxy OR one or two of them have, therefore he's assuming they all can. Phantiliya and Celenova are fairly recent Lord Ravager so they don't have a lot of feats in lore. I don't know which interpretation is the most valid. I just want to know what the rationalization is for one interpretation being more valid than the other.
Click to expand...
I mean how can we even tier them then? what tier would asat and archforger be when we dont know shit abt them, what tier are phantylia and celenova if we know they can match and even overpower generals? Phainon and Zephyro are definetly into 3-B range hto
Community_Gamer said:
Why do you think she has a "true form"? She's a heliobi; her true form is energy. If anything, the form we fought her in could be stronger than her normal bodies.
Click to expand...
basically this, yea the form we fought was arbor absorbed so it was>her heliobi
 
PedjaTarzan said:
give me your luck vro 💔
Click to expand...
image.png
 
yeah nah guess im spending it all for saber and her LC...no cerydra no sparkle no sunday...where do i sell kidney legally? gonna need it for hsr
 
PedjaTarzan said:
I mean how can we even tier them then? what tier would asat and archforger be when we dont know shit abt them, what tier are phantylia and celenova if we know they can match and even overpower generals? Phainon and Zephyro are definetly into 3-B range hto
Click to expand...
We don't scale characters without valid discernible feats. I already mentioned my contention with the that statement but assuming we are being generous with the interpretation, where do you scale the generals without scaling to Lord Ravagers via that statement.

Phainon is at his peak yea, simulated Zephyro wouldn't scale to Phainon at his peak since he didn't fight that Phainon so it's hard to scale him based on their fight.
PedjaTarzan said:
basically this, yea the form we fought was arbor absorbed so it was>her heliobi
Click to expand...
Yeah I mean her physical appearance is irrelevant she can possess anything
 
Community_Gamer said:
We don't scale characters without valid discernible feats. I already mentioned my contention with the that statement but assuming we are being generous with the interpretation, where do you scale the generals without scaling to Lord Ravagers via that statement.
Click to expand...
I mean if we do it this way, i might just delete 99% of hsr profiles, genuenly... when has this ever become a standard, i could just put phainon and zephyro profiles alongside argenti and doomsday beast and thats all, those are the only ones with actual feats then, and the herta since she has that calc that im doubt its gonna last any time soon.
So uhh ig if we REALLY use feats only without statements and scaling from game itself,
5-B for jing yuan destroying demonic planet and thats all.
Like what do you want me to do? dig all possible feats and put every character on the feat they have performed, might as well not even scale the verse.
I am quite sure the verse page itself and profiles explained how scaling for emanators goes but okay.
 
PedjaTarzan said:
I mean if we do it this way, i might just delete 99% of hsr profiles, genuenly... when has this ever become a standard, i could just put phainon and zephyro profiles alongside argenti and doomsday beast and thats all, those are the only ones with actual feats then, and the herta since she has that calc that im doubt its gonna last any time soon.
So uhh ig if we REALLY use feats only without statements and scaling from game itself,
5-B for jing yuan destroying demonic planet and thats all.
Like what do you want me to do? dig all possible feats and put every character on the feat they have performed, might as well not even scale the verse.
I am quite sure the verse page itself and profiles explained how scaling for emanators goes but okay.
Click to expand...
You're missing the point, it's not an issue of feats vs mentions. It's a matter of plausibility and correlation between different points.

Acheron mentions that it takes the same power (in the sense of amount of Imaginary energy) as an emanator to counter it.

An emanator of destruction is galaxy or Multigalaxy, hence any emanator should have that same level. At first glance it sounds "logical".

But at depth it is not, the paths work in different ways. It is logical that the path of destruction is endorsed with feats of destruction, but the others do not necessarily follow that logic.

An emanator of order or propagation would be presented in the same way, I doubt it. And you have sunday as an example.
 
The mention of Welt, personally, seems to me to be more related to the chain of command, rather than to power.

If we go to the facts, well.... A phantalya avatar brutally humiliated Jing Yuan, I doubt very much that he is equivalent to 100% phantalya.

In any case, I have to reread the Loufu, I don't remember a lot of things.
 
BlackLight said:
You're missing the point, it's not an issue of feats vs mentions. It's a matter of plausibility and correlation between different points.

Acheron mentions that it takes the same power (in the sense of amount of Imaginary energy) as an emanator to counter it.
Click to expand...
when was it even mentioned that it takes same imaginary energy for emanator to beat one? in the fight we werent even using imaginary energy we were just jumping sunday till our power matched his and beat him what the?
BlackLight said:
An emanator of destruction is galaxy or Multigalaxy, hence any emanator should have that same level. At first glance it sounds "logical".
Click to expand...
well its not just emanator of destruction, theres literal calc of emanator of erudition herta having galaxy lvl+ feat
BlackLight said:
But at depth it is not, the paths work in different ways. It is logical that the path of destruction is endorsed with feats of destruction, but the others do not necessarily follow that logic.
An emanator of order or propagation would be presented in the same way, I doubt it. And you have sunday as an example.
Click to expand...
Emanators are still scalable with acheorn statement, fact that lygus and herta clash is evidenty shown to be "mutual self destruction" which is like worst outcome of the fight, and herta stating that 3 emanator level or higher having destructive power bigger than chadwick bombs which include destruction of 24 planets with the space between them. I dont see why scaling them to each other in same tier is an issue, sure Lord Ravagers are stronger than the rest but that doesnt mean we should put them whole 30 tiers below them at all.
 
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