HonestlyBored24’s Stupendous High 8-C Tournament of Bloodshed: Miguel O'Hara vs. Lucy (R1M2, 5-1-0)

[HonestlyBored24]

Spoiler: Funny Stuff

ROUND 2 ALREADY? WELL, SHIVER ME TIMBERS, BUCKLE MY SHOE, AND ** * *! TAKE THAT, @Froggytron! IN OTHER NEWS. IN THIS CORNER, WE HAVE MIGUEL O’HARA FROM THE SPIDER-VERSE TRILOGY! AND IN THIS CORNER, WE HAVE KAEDE OR NYU OR LUCY FROM ELFEN LIED, WHICH IS INCREDIBLY WEIRD CONSIDERING SHE’S ONLY 8-C- OH WAIT, I’M MISTAKEN, THIS ISN’T KAEDE OR NYU OR LUCY FROM ELFEN LIED, THIS IS KAEDE OR NYU OR LUCY FROM DEATH BATTLE!!! WELL, SHIVER ME TIMBERS, BUCKLE MY SHOE, AND BURST MY SKULL OPEN WITH A HATCHE-

Da Roolz
Most of the rules are specified in the Hub World.
Lucy starts at her peak.

Da Vouts
“YOU’RE AN ANOMALY! EVERYWHERE YOU GO, YOU’LL ALWAYS BE AN ANOMALY!”: 5 (MintyBoi1, LeoEpicGamer8910, GreyFang82, Flowerguy2, ExSENNA)

Scales to this; > 2.86 Tons of TNT​

Scales to this; > 64.10 Metric Kilotons​

“Does it hurt yet? Don’t worry… I’ll put you out of your misery.”: 1 (XSOULOFCINDERX)

Scales to this; 2.71 Tons of TNT​

Scales to baseline Class 5; 1 Metric Ton​

Da Fakts
Miguel O'Hara has a 1.05428991906x advantage in Attack Potency, and vastly upscales from his value.
Miguel O'Hara has a 641007.3026x advantage in Lifting Strength, and vastly upscales from his value.

 

[MintyBoi1]

Miguel is really held back by not having a spider sense, but still he has experience/skill, acrobatics, and intelligence over Lucy. Her arms aren’t strong enough to tear him apart and he’s tough enough to take them. Aside from explosions, I don’t see Lucy having anything very threatening, and she took minutes to actually use that against Carnage. It’s likely he just poisons or paralyzes her and ends it there once he figures out her attacks are invisible.

Voting Miguel unless Lucy has some good arguments

 

[LeoEpicGamer8910]

Miguel FRA for now

 

[Flowerguy2]

Miguel is really held back by not having a spider sense, but still he has experience/skill, acrobatics, and intelligence over Lucy.

While I can't argue against Miguel's having the experience/skill advantage, opponents who has acrobatics and webbing is nothing new to her, most example of this (And only example) is Carnage, who is a AOE and acrobatic fighter which Lucy easily blocked attacks from.

Her arms aren’t strong enough to tear him apart and he’s tough enough to take them.

...But are strong enough to cut Miguel to pieces with piercing damage from her invisible arms.

I don’t see Lucy having anything very threatening, and she took minutes to actually use that against Carnage.

Who is ALSO a Spider-Person who can fire webs and even who has shown regenerating from being cut into pieces or turn into a puddle of blood by Lucy, which Miguel CANNOT do at all.

It’s likely he just poisons or paralyzes her and ends it there once he figures out her attacks are invisible.

I don't see how Miguel could get through Lucy's multiple arms in which she can make many out of. (Which, not to mention, Miguel can't even see at all dues to them being invisible). Lucy's whole tactic is blocking attacks fast and then hitting back just as fast from Carnage, who would start with AOE and constant barrages but she easily blocked them with no effort. due to speed being equalized, similar to a previous thread, Miguel's speed is now just as fast as Lucy while her vectors are way faster than her. Which Carnage also has troubling from even hitting her at all unless she was caught off guard.

 

[MintyBoi1]

While I can't argue against Miguel's having the experience/skill advantage, opponents who has acrobatics and webbing is nothing new to her, most example of this (And only example) is Carnage, who is a AOE and acrobatic fighter which Lucy easily blocked attacks from.

Who is ALSO a Spider-Person who can fire webs and even who has shown regenerating from being cut into pieces or turn into a puddle of blood by Lucy, which Miguel CANNOT do at all.

Yes Carnage is similar in powerset to Miguel and Peter, but the skill and mindset are different. Carnage is just a psycho basically throwing himself at Lucy, Miguel should be far less predictable even when angered. Having multiple arms isn’t new to a Spider Person, if he gets in there he has the option to choke her out or snap her neck if he feels like it.

Lucy’s piercing/cutting could be a threat, but Miguel is more likely to shut her down before she finishes him with that. Spider people are incredibly tanky, Miguel himself taking a huge electric blast from Miles and just coming out more pissed off really. Carnage is odd to really prove this point with since he’s basically a weird mix of slime and blood as well as having regeneration as his shtick, so I’m taking that with a grain of salt.

There’s nothing suggesting Lucy’s arms are automatic either, like you said her thing is attacking back JUST as fast. Looking at the animation, yes she’s swiping fast but I don’t think it’s anything she couldn’t do physically given she’s actively controlling the arms and not really surprised by anything Carnage is doing.

 

[ExSENNA]

I recommend not to have a FRA train before an argument can be concluded

 

[Flowerguy2]

Yes Carnage is similar in powerset to Miguel and Peter, but the skill and mindset are different. Carnage is just a psycho basically throwing himself at Lucy, Miguel should be far less predictable even when angered.

While yes, Carnage is just a psycho killer who has shown just trying to fight Lucy in close range... during the first half of the fight, after close range-combat wasn't gonna work against Lucy, he decided to resorted to attacking Lucy when she was off-guard from the shadows and throwing pillars to distracted her before firing out multiple pin-shots at Lucy, which, while she managed to blocked them, a few cuts was made by her during the attack, which was ACTUALLY able to harmed her a few times before getting slammed into a wall by Lucy's invisible vector. When after being thrown inside of the train, Carnage turns himself into dozen of tentacles to attacked her, even causing Lucy to pulled herself to the air to avoid the tentacles, in which, makes Carnage wrapped his tentacles around the vectors and climbed on it in attempted to killed her... before getting himself blown up by Lucy's vectors vibration.

Carnage, despite being a fighter who just basically throws himself straight at the opponents, has shown to be able to be skilled and formed ways of hurting Lucy which are actual able to somewhat harmed her before getting attacked when he couldn't do before in close range.

Having multiple arms isn’t new to a Spider Person, if he gets in there he has the option to choke her out or snap her neck if he feels like it.

Expect Lucy's Arms are invisible ones, in which none of the Spider-Peoples has dealt with before and Miguel is going to have problems dealing with invisible projectiles that gonna attacked him from left, front and right. (Expect for those other Spider-People I don't know about who dealt with Invisible combatants in their series)

Lucy’s piercing/cutting could be a threat, but Miguel is more likely to shut her down before she finishes him with that.

How exactly? In close range, Miguel's melee attacks are basically gotta get blocked by Lucy's vectors before getting cut to pieces by them in seconds. And even when he tried to restrained Lucy with his energy-webs, they are just gotta eventually get slashed and explodes to pieces by her own vectors.

Spider people are incredibly tanky, Miguel himself taking a huge electric blast from Miles and just coming out more pissed off really.

Don't see how Miguel is going to last long if he is being slashed by the vectors multiple times till' he is cut to pieces of himself/blood of puddle in mere seconds by piercing damage (Piercing damage can be a b*tch sometimes)

 

[MintyBoi1]

I’m seeing this being closer than I thought, I’ll have to see what Leo says

 

[HonestlyBored24]

Bump

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Lucy FRA.

 

[MintyBoi1]

Lucy’s vectors are still arms, all the damage she did to Carnage was fast swiping and vibrating, not exactly piercing damage in the way a sword is. So if Miguel is tougher, how can Lucy really cut him apart before he gets into her range and takes her out or pulls something with his webs? It’s more likely a build up of flesh wounds than full on bisection for Miguel who’s far tougher (even vastly upscaling from his listed AP value) and certainly more solid than Carnage. Even Lucy’s vibration took a second with her vectors already being lodged in the ground, so I don’t see how her swipes are doing enough damage. Even if she grabs ahold and tries to vibrate Miguel, he’ll rip out of that in an instant and take her off guard.

It may be difficult, but it’s more likely for 2099 to incapacitate Lucy than for her to end him in the early game where her best chance of winning lies due to his resilience and AP/skill advantage.

 

[Flowerguy2]

Lucy’s vectors are still arms, all the damage she did to Carnage was fast swiping and vibrating, not exactly piercing damage in the way a sword is.

Swiping and slashing are two different thing, swiping is hitting or try to hit something, while slashing is to lash out and cut through things with an edged blade. And just because they are shaped like arms, doesn't mean they can't cut through things (OG Lucy's Profile even stated that the Vectors can cut through thing and refer to them as "cutting weapons", while they are technically the same characters but are still different in terms of stats and abilities, it's still worth to mention that both of their vectors are also shaped like arms but still managed to cut through things/people without much problems)

Lucy's Vectors has even shown to be able to cutting through Carnage like butter multiple times already. And what? Your telling me swiping can cut through someone into pieces like butter with enough speed?

So if Miguel is tougher, how can Lucy really cut him apart before he gets into her range and takes her out or pulls something with his webs?

Lucy could tried to easily blocked attacks from Miguel if he attempted to attacked her in close range or destroyed the things that Miguel thrown at her, but if she's having trouble with Miguel, he could pulled herself away from him and attacked him from range alone since Miguel's whole shtick is getting close to his opponents by either getting up close or webbing himself to them before attacking them.

And when also Lucy's shtick is being excels at blocking melee/sharped weapons and long range attacks in seconds with her vectors, which I mentioned as before, which are way faster than her. And as shown here, while Miguel WAS distracting by Gwen and not noticing Vulture behind him, it still worth to mentioned that it implies Miguel can be caught off guard by attacks (Which not to mention Miguel has no counter against Lucy's Invisibility Vectors or even get a chance to hit her dues to the vector blocking his attacks)

It’s more likely a build up of flesh wounds than full on bisection for Miguel who’s far tougher (even vastly upscaling from his listed AP value) and certainly more solid than Carnage.

Lucy's Durability (And likely her vectors) massively upscales from her AP value since she wasn't even harmed by her own explosion, which was able to vaporized Carnage to nothing while Lucy came out just fine. Don't know if that changes anything but I just want to mentioned it.

Even Lucy’s vibration took a second with her vectors already being lodged in the ground, so I don’t see how her swipes are doing enough damage.

Like I said above, swiping and slashing are two different things. And also, just because it took a second doesn't mean it slow (And Miguel's speed is equalized to Lucy's speed now)

Even if she grabs ahold and tries to vibrate Miguel, he’ll rip out of that in an instant and take her off guard.

Why would Lucy would do that? Lucy would just start by tearing/cutting her opponents up to pieces instantly, she only uses her vibration to explodes things that are restraining/around her Vectors. Also, about this scene, I noticed that Lucy was actually blocking attacks from Carnage with her vectors rather than getting hit (Which you can see from the white-shaped crescents when Carnage "attacked" Lucy) despite not knowing where he is and when he is in the shadows. Showing that Lucy CAN blocked attacks even when caught off-guarded.

There’s nothing suggesting Lucy’s arms are automatic either, like you said her thing is attacking back JUST as fast. Looking at the animation, yes she’s swiping fast but I don’t think it’s anything she couldn’t do physically given she’s actively controlling the arms and not really surprised by anything Carnage is doing.

Also, when did I say that Lucy's Vectors are automatic? She just blocked things very fast.

 

[HonestlyBored24]

Bump

 

[ExSENNA]

So vectors are both invisible and faster than Miguel?

 

[HonestlyBored24]

So vectors are both invisible and faster than Miguel?

Yeah

 

[MintyBoi1]

I still feel her arms are just relative to her, even on her page they’re not specified to go faster, so they really should just scale to how fast she can think and move

 

[ExSENNA]

I still feel her arms are just relative to her, even on her page they’re not specified to go faster, so they really should just scale to how fast she can think and move

That's what I was going to ask, if the arms are faster, she should have a faster attack speed indexed on her profile. If she is able to operate arms on her own-not automatic, then they should be relative to her. With that out of the way, invisibility remains only issue for Miguel

 

[MintyBoi1]

Yes, that’s why I specified they’re not automatic earlier. And while the vectors can cut, they cannot stab so I believe Miguel’s skin should be able to withstand them to a point as they’re limited to slashing. I also think vibrating is out of the question since Miguel wouldn’t let her get the second needed to take a hold of him and I don’t think she can do it without a grab.

 

[Flowerguy2]

Yes, that’s why I specified they’re not automatic earlier

That because she just blocked very fast. Which is literally her whole playstyle and tactic.

And while the vectors can cut, they cannot stab so I believe Miguel’s skin should be able to withstand them to a point as they’re limited to slashing.

Cutting and stabbing ARE piercing damage, it was agreed here that characters can harmed other characters of a higher tier with piercing damage and said by @DarkDragonMedeus in this thread:

I think we already have a different thread talking about this. And while it is agreed piercing and cutting attacks can harm characters of higher tier, it was also rejected to give higher ratings via cutting/piercing. But I think a proposal to simply add "Higher via cutting/piercing" to our various Real World guns similar to our animal profiles having it via sharp claws and teeth was being okay.​

I also think vibrating is out of the question since Miguel wouldn’t let her get the second needed to take a hold of him and I don’t think she can do it without a grab.

Lucy only uses her vibration to explodes things that are restraining/around her Vectors, not grabbing and vibrating her opponents to oblivion.

That's what I was going to ask, if the arms are faster, she should have a faster attack speed indexed on her profile.

Does these clips answered your question or not?

 

[MintyBoi1]

That because she just blocked very fast. Which is literally her whole playstyle and tactic.

Which means the vectors are equal to Lucy so Miguel has a good chance of playing around her with acrobatics superior to her and Carnage as well as his other abilities and getting in a paralyze or poison to hinder her and bag the win. The fact they’re in a city also helps this since he can traverse freely and avoid straight up confrontation.

Lucy can pierce Miguels skin but he’s too durable to be taken apart by her. She’s only shown doing that on someone either relative to or weaker than her depending on how you see L vs C, though I’m leaning weaker. And yeah vibrating here is useless unless Miguel manages to tag her with webs. Though that second interval could lead to him engaging in melee and getting into her zone.

 

[GreyFang82]

They are pretty equal in power, I am very certain Miguel isn’t getting cut in half, in real life the energy needed to cut a limb off is way more than a 5% difference in power (and which Miguel holds the advantage not her)

That being said, Lucy’s invisible vectors are a big deal. Miguel doesn’t have a way to dodge these attacks besides guessing.

But he probably would just tank it to close the gap and grab Lucy and slam her like a rag doll with that lifting strength difference.

Her vibration manipulation doesn’t ignore durability, it was just the fact of her being so much stronger than Carnage since she cuts him with her AP with ease.

Miguel can constantly slam her and punch, but Lucy might just use her vectors to block and attack as he’s doing so.

You could argue she could chip him out, but Miguel’s stamina and being able to endure some heavy blows…

I think Miguel takes this as well, but he’s getting really roughed up and tired from chip damage from the vectors she uses, and Lucy had to be somewhat vulnerable to attack back and not just curl up and block.

 

[HonestlyBored24]

I would say grace, but there’s an argument going on rn so I’m gonna wait

 

[ExSENNA]

Yeah, it means Lucy is wastly more powerful than Carnage for being able to cut him apart like that, and/or Carnage is not very durable as his thing is regen after all. Either way I don't think Lucy can cut Miguel the same way she cut Carnage, Miguel can tank some hits I believe

 

[MintyBoi1]

I believe it’s both, Carnage was being outclassed to the point it took minutes for him to land a few cuts. And while this may be out of DB continuity, they mention in canon that Lucy will melt if she goes into her top frequency. This doesn’t happen so it can be said Carnage could never push Lucy to go all out. Afterall he died once she broke out her explosions. This simply won’t be the case with a much stronger and highly experienced Miguel, it’ll be high diff for either of them.

 

[HonestlyBored24]

I believe it’s both, Carnage was being outclassed to the point it took minutes for him to land a few cuts. And while this may be out of DB continuity, they mention in canon that Lucy will melt if she goes into her top frequency. This doesn’t happen so it can be said Carnage could never push Lucy to go all out. Afterall he died once she broke out her explosions. This simply won’t be the case with a much stronger and highly experienced Miguel, it’ll be high diff for either of them.

You’re changing your vote to incon right

 

[MintyBoi1]

No I think Miguel wins

 

[HonestlyBored24]

No I think Miguel wins

Ok

 

[Flowerguy2]

Which means the vectors are equal to Lucy

No, it isn't how it works, it only means Lucy has faster reaction speed but it doesn't affected the Vector's speed with them being incredibly long arms capable of attacking around this fast in seconds/mere-seconds. And again, Miguel's Supersonic speed is equalized to Lucy's Superhuman speed, meaning he can't land a single hit on her if she is just going to blocked every attack from her of her vectors are faster than him.

so Miguel has a good chance of playing around her with acrobatics superior to her and Carnage as well as his other abilities and getting in a paralyze or poison to hinder her and bag the win.

Then how is Miguel even gonna land a single hit on Lucy if she is literally gonna blocked every single melee attacks from him with the Vectors before attacking/slicing him back with piercing damage?

The fact they’re in a city also helps this since he can traverse freely and avoid straight up confrontation.

Yeah but unlike any other Spider-Person, Miguel doesn't just traveled freely around the battle, he'd just straight up charges at his opponent and fight them for a while before attempting to paralyze/poison them with his fangs since it in-character for him. Also, why are you ignoring that the fact Lucy's Vectors are invisible cutting arms which Miguel cannot see at all?

Lucy can pierce Miguels skin but he’s too durable to be taken apart by her. She’s only shown doing that on someone either relative to or weaker than her depending on how you see L vs C, though I’m leaning weaker.

Still, Lucy can still cut/sliced Miguel O'Hara into pieces because of piercing damage alone.

They are pretty equal in power, I am very certain Miguel isn’t getting cut in half, in real life the energy needed to cut a limb off is way more than a 5% difference in power (and which Miguel holds the advantage not her)

Either way I don't think Lucy can cut Miguel the same way she cut Carnage, Miguel can tank some hits I believe

Tell that to these threads.

I believe it’s both, Carnage was being outclassed to the point it took minutes for him to land a few cuts.

Which would be actually helpful for Lucy, she blocks Carnage's melee/blade attacks with her vectors which Carnage's attacks are shown to actually harmed her a few times, as she was capable of surviving her own explosion (And her vectors also survived it as shown as she is still in the air), which would make her Vectors massively upscales from her value too.

And while this may be out of DB continuity, they mention in canon that Lucy will melt if she goes into her top frequency. This doesn’t happen so it can be said Carnage could never push Lucy to go all out.

Don't make me tap the sign...
"Note: This profile is based on their feats in the fighting animation, not their feats in the analysis."

 

[HonestlyBored24]

Tell that to these threads.

Leo probably thinks that a 3-A character can be defeated with a 9-C weapon because it’s pointy.

 

[Flowerguy2]

Leo probably thinks that a 3-A character can be defeated with a 9-C weapon because it’s pointy.

My whole piercing damage argument is reminding me of VSBW's Sans beating higher tier characters just cuz of soul hax/KARMA and I hate it.

 

[ExSENNA]

No, it isn't how it works, it only means Lucy has faster reaction speed but it doesn't affected the Vector's speed with them being incredibly long arms capable of attacking around this fast in seconds/mere-seconds. And again, Miguel's Supersonic speed is equalized to Lucy's Superhuman speed, meaning he can't land a single hit on her if she is just going to blocked every attack from her of her vectors are faster than him.

Then how is Miguel even gonna land a single hit on Lucy if she is literally gonna blocked every single melee attacks from him with the Vectors before attacking/slicing him back with piercing damage?

Still, Lucy can still cut/sliced Miguel O'Hara into pieces because of piercing damage alone.

That doesn't even make sense. If she operates the vectors on her own they should not be too much faster than her own combat speed, which gets equalized here. She would get a "X attack speed with Arms/Vectors" whatever on her profile if the Vectors are way faster than she is, which she does not have.

Arms would have much more difficult time blocking Miguel's attacks due to him being stronger, and also damaging him, piercing damage is not duraneg and it would be even less effective against Miguel who is tougher than Carnage, who probably downscales from Lcuy. Definitely cannot grab due to massive LS advantage of Miguel. Invisibility is the main problem though

 

[GreyFang82]

How about instead of referring to different threads that I wasn’t a part of, I make my argument here.

Because my argument is slashing damage is usually accompanied by a weapon which amplifies the energy and lowers the surface area which in turn makes it stronger than a person’s normal attacks. Which allows a human level person with a katana cut a human in half. Which the energy created by the person with a sword to cut a person in half is 3735 joules. That is a big energy difference to cut them like that.

However this amplified attack is still weaker than the other person durability, meaning it will hurt them but not cut or pierce through them.

TLDR

Weapons and surface area amplify the actual energy, therefore going above their actual power, the vectors themselves once doing such is still weaker than Miguel’s durability therefore it won’t cut him in half, but will obviously hurt him more than a punch.

 

[Flowerguy2]

Y'know what screw it, due to the fact I am just going to get out-argumented anyway and since I don't want to be one of those users who kept endlessy debating that the character wins despite them losing badly to their opponent sooooo...

"Bro it's a canon event" FRA

Maybe I shouldn't have picked Asta/Izuku or Stitch (If I have made his page yet) into this...

 

[HonestlyBored24]

The definitive GRACE!

 

[ExSENNA]

Miguel FRA