Higher-Dimensional Physiology and Hax(REDUX )

[Sniper670]

Alright so, this has gotten me way too many conflicting opinions.

If you have Higher-Dimensional Existence, do we automatically assume your abilities also scale to your higher-dimensionality?

Why I'm asking? Well, it's because of Arceus

As some of you may know, he got upgraded to Low 1-C. The problem surfaced when he was put in a low 1C match. You see, he's 5D alright, but he's never made an appearance, so all he really has is upscaling from other 4D hax in the verse
There are hints about him scaling to 5D in power, such as said 4D hax being merely fractions of his being, including the plates, where all Pokemon powers come from. Existing as a totality of all existence, both 4D and 5D.But aside from that, there's no other hints about whether his power is 5D or not. We've never seen his True power anywhere on screen

So is Arceus a 5D reverse smurf? Not just arceus, but those who end up reaching tier 1 in this fashion

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

It's a tough question. Normally when characters have some kind of Tier jump there are blatant examples of them using some kind of power at this new level or statements saying that they have just gotten stronger. This is usually why stuff like this never comes up.

The real issue is Arceus' true self just has zero feats of doing anything at all. Overall I don't know, it makes sense that he would have 5D powers but at the same time it would be a leap to assume 3D abilities are insta bumped up to 5D without any showings.

 

[Vietthai96]

You can have like over 4D HDE but building level of AP, so why not hax.

Anyway normally we assume hax will scale to the dimensionality of the user or the opponent if said hax can affect the opponent, however the user at least need to perform it. The other way is scaling via Universal Energy System like Chaos Energy from Sonic or something similar, but again said Universal Energy System also need feat or statement of its dimensionality first before we do any scaling

 

[Sniper670]

The real issue is Arceus' true self just has zero feats of doing anything at all. Overall I don't know, it makes sense that he would have 5D powers but at the same time it would be a leap to assume 3D abilities are insta bumped up to 5D without any showings.

Can't we scale him based on what scaled him to 5D? Unless somehow Arceus used 4D power to create a higher plane of reality.

 

[Sniper670]

You can have like over 4D HDE but building level of AP, so why not hax.

I've seen that too. But Arceus embodies 5D and presumably created that.

Anyway normally we assume hax will scale to the dimensionality of the user or the opponent if said hax can affect the opponent, however the user at least need to perform it. The other way is scaling via Universal Energy System like Chaos Energy from Sonic or something similar, but again said Universal Energy System also need feat or statement of its dimensionality first before we do any scaling

Llama God is out of luck then

 

[StekFence]

Honestly, viet makes sense. Without any clear showings or scaling, it would all be conjecture. in the context of arceus, I would simply give him an extra layer to whatever he alr has

 

[StekFence]

Can't we scale him based on what scaled him to 5D? Unless somehow Arceus used 4D power to create a higher plane of reality.

5D creation or space time I guess, better then nothing

 

[Sniper670]

This is what Professor Kukui had to say. What do you think?

Yeah no. I’m completely against the notion that his abilities aren’t 5-D based off the simple fact that all of the powers Arceus has would be ORIGINALLY 5-D in the first place, because they originally come from True Arceus to begin with.

This is why all of the verses abilities that Arceus got when his hax got upgraded were agreed to become 4-D at that time, because these said powers originated from the 4-D Arceus before they were bestowed to all Pokémon in the multiverse.

The same principle should go here. Powers that originally belong to a now 5-D being should be 5-D.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

@Everything12

 

[StekFence]

well I disagree, as I don’t think coming from a 5d being inherantly means 5d, as that should be based off feats, which arceus lacks entirely

 

[Sniper670]

4D hax in the verse are actually nowhere close to the full power of Arceus

I think that's why I believe he should scale to 5D. Noone in the verse is 5D besides him and all the powers they're using are merely fragments

 

[Vietthai96]

Yeah no. I’m completely against the notion that his abilities aren’t 5-D based off the simple fact that all of the powers Arceus has would be ORIGINALLY 5-D in the first place, because they originally come from True Arceus to begin with.

That wrong, did he ever show feat or statement or anything confirm that power come from him must be 5D????. We don't assuming thing without a groud to stand. iirc there is many higher D character have lower D hax

This is why all of the verses abilities that Arceus got when his hax got upgraded were agreed to become 4-D at that time, because these said powers originated from the 4-D Arceus before they were bestowed to all Pokémon in the multiverse.

that mean thing was wrong from the time 4D was accepted (i'm not talking about tier), every power was downscale from him due to it being a portion of his power, and we don't scale a portion to something full

 

[Sniper670]

Alright so why wouldn't his full power be 5D, since that's what he is in his Tru Form

 

[Sniper670]

That wrong, did he ever show feat or statement or anything confirm that power come from him must be 5D????. We don't assuming thing without a groud to stand. iirc there is many higher D character have lower D hax

We don't assume the 5D realm came out of nowhere. Unless Arceus power switches from 5D to 4D occasionally

 

[Vietthai96]

We don't assume the 5D realm came out of nowhere. Unless Arceus power switches from 5D to 4D occasionally

and why that 5D realm scale to every hax again. Unless you scale hax to his own AP which is ridiculous to be honest

 

[Sniper670]

and why that 5D realm scale to every hax again. Unless you scale hax to his own AP which is ridiculous to be honest

Because he should be able to manipulate/affect the 5D realm anyway he likes since he embodies it just as he embodies the 4D multiverse

Everything in the verse is merely inner workings of Arceus. He can do what he wants

 

[Vietthai96]

Because he should be able to manipulate/affect the 5D realm anyway he likes since he embodies it just as he embodies the 4D multiverse

he has no feat to be honest, so this part is your assumption, but anyway it is not matter

Everything in the verse is merely inner workings of Arceus. He can do why he wants

This not giving any informations, like is said before, everything was downscale from him, and when you downscale, now reason to assume the result is something still equal to the source of scaling. And vice versa, he upscaled from something 4D, so reason to assume he suddenly 5D hax, it is a leap in logic. Lastly, iirc Plate was just a part of his power, like i said before, a part of something is not equal to the full of that thing

 

[Sniper670]

Well here's what Professor Kukio said. I'll call him here :

Yes, but the thing that separates Arceus's case from the standard is that this case gives us a 5-D being who, according to this verse's context, was always 5-D from the start in his true form. And the abilities of this said being originated from them. With this context, that is telling us that these abilities originated from a 5-D source.

Thus, they were always 5-D before being distributed to weaker beings in their verse. That makes it the exception as you can't argue something isn't what it originally was.

 

[Vietthai96]

Yes, but the thing that separates Arceus's case from the standard is that this case gives us a 5-D being who, according to this verse's context, was always 5-D from the start in his true form. And the abilities of this said being originated from them. With this context, that is telling us that these abilities originated from a 5-D source.

Thus, they were always 5-D before being distributed to weaker beings in their verse. That makes it the exception as you can't argue something isn't what it originally was.

At this point i think you refuse to understand me, everything was downscale from him, being a portion of his power, a portion will not give the same thing as full, he distributed his power doesn't mean all of them suddenly is 5D. His case is not Universal Energy System, and no one assume a portion of power from a 5D being will be 5D in potency

 

[Everything12]

I'll echo the opinions of others from the past thread.

We should not assume the potency of hax scales to one's physical dimensionality if we haven't been proven it can. If the being has only shown hax on lower beings, it already puts into question whether this would be useable against bengs on their level.

Essentially, assuming that all abilities of a character MUST be on part with their physicality is an assumption with no real basis.

"Think of it like an author writing a story in a book. They are transcendent over the fictional world of the book, but they can't rewrite the plot of real life."

I'm with "No. It shouldn't". We have not just many Higher D characters whichs abilities come from a weaker version of themself, but some even inherit abilities from other characters or general species properties for various reasons.

That those get infinitely better just due to the characters body changing its dimensionality is not a given to me.

 

[Sniper670]

Bro. Arceus has never used hax on a lower being. In fact you're only echoing his avatars feats

The fact that he created and embodies a 5D realm implies he can affect it, so I'm not getting your point like his hax is low tier

Are you saying the laws/rules/systems that exists in his 5D realm is beyond his control??

Because everything in the verse are merely inner workings of his being

 

[Everything12]

Arceus isn't the center of the world. This and the previous thread might be important to Arceus, but other characters are affected and should be part of the conversation as well.

 

[Sniper670]

I don't get what you're trying yo say. Rephrase pls

 

[Pikaman]

This is probably a matter for staff rather than the general membership of the wiki tbh

 

[Sniper670]

I agree

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

well I disagree, as I don’t think coming from a 5d being inherantly means 5d, as that should be based off feats

That doesn't make any sense though since not only is hax (unless this changed while I was away) scaled to the dimensionality of the user, but the abilities are originating from a 5-D source.

It isn't the same thing as if a character gets a new never before seen form, in which THAT would require feats. The context of the verse here is saying that, in Arceus's case, he was always 5-D with his true form prior to the cosmology even existing. There shouldn't be any need to require feats of 5-D stuff for powers that are originally coming from a 5-D source.

 

[StekFence]

hax (unless this changed while I was away) scaled to the dimensionality of the user,

It seems to be kinda ambiguous tbh

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

>We should not assume the potency of hax scales to one's physical dimensionality if we haven't been proven it can. If the being has only shown hax on lower beings, it already puts into question whether this would be useable against bengs on their level.

Essentially, assuming that all abilities of a character MUST be on part with their physicality is an assumption with no real basis.

See, I only partially agree with this, because Arceus's case doesn't exactly fit with what this note is saying here. For characters who receive NEW forms, that have never been seen before? Absolutely fine to not assume the hax scales.

But that is exactly part of the problem here. Arceus's 5-D form isn't a new form. It's his true form that's always been a thing. The context is saying Arceus's true form has always been 5-D by accepting it as Low 1-C. Everything in the Pokemon Cosmology originates from True Arceus, that includes all Pokemon powers. That is saying that these powers originally were 5-D, because they are originally coming from a 5-D source. Not the other way around.

The next quote further ties into this argument:

I'm with "No. It shouldn't". We have not just many Higher D characters whichs abilities come from a weaker version of themself, but some even inherit abilities from other characters or general species properties for various reasons.

That those get infinitely better just due to the characters body changing its dimensionality is not a given to me.

Arceus's case is completely in reverse here. His powers aren't coming from his avatars and then being applied to the true being. His powers aren't being inherited from Pokemon and being applied to the true being.

His powers are coming from the true being and being applied to the avatars, and the pokemon in the multiverse. His 5-D form doesnt come from just taking an avatar and changing it's dimensionality, his 5-D self is the original true being that always existed before everything else did. The avatars didn't come first, the 5-D original self did.

Because this upgrade is happening in reverse of what this standard normally applies to, the standard should not apply to Arceus.

 

[Pikaman]

This is defo a staff issue, both on what regular standards should be AND on whether Arceus conforms with those or is an exception

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

It's definitely a staff issue because other characters can fall under this, but in my opinion, Arceus's case is one of those situations that needs to be evaluated differently, because the process isn't the same as I explained in my most recent response.

Its happening in reverse.

 

[Ballsdeep69]

Don't really have an opinion on the reverse smurf thing but wouldn't true form Arceus essentially be a haxless character because any opponent he has wouldn't be inside him?
Take Mata Nui for example, he has a bunch of hax like fate manipulation that only work when you're in his body but if you fight him outside he's "just" a giant robot.

 

[Ego]

Don't really have an opinion on the reverse smurf thing but wouldn't true form Arceus essentially be a haxless character because any opponent he has wouldn't be inside him?
Take Mata Nui for example, he has a bunch of hax like fate manipulation that only work when you're in his body but if you fight him outside he's "just" a giant robot.

Haxless true form Arceus?


What?

 

[Sniper670]

Don't really have an opinion on the reverse smurf thing but wouldn't true form Arceus essentially be a haxless character because any opponent he has wouldn't be inside him?
Take Mata Nui for example, he has a bunch of hax like fate manipulation that only work when you're in his body but if you fight him outside he's "just" a giant robot.

I can say the same for any large Size character who encompass their entire verse

 

[StrymULTRA]

Ok so, this whole "but True Form Arceus just upscales from the Avatar so all its hax is just 4D" is honestly just stupid and ignores a lot of context.

I'll speak like this because people tend to over-simplify and forget things about Arceus.

Arceus doesn't have any Low 1-C feat itself besides its existence, so its hax extend to only its 4D multiverse.

This assumes that Arceus just exists in a plane beyond the multiverse and has created just said 4D multiverse, in a similar way Mashymre did. Issue here is that Arceus itself, unlike Mashymre, didn't just create the multiverse and perceives it as insignificant, but exists AS THE WHOLE PLANE WHERE THE MULTIVERSE IS SUCH. Arceus literally exists as a Low 1-C structure where the Multiverse is just a mere fraction of it, and gets the stuff from said realm. This isn't a thing like Mashymre who can use Fairy Tail verse powers just there, as is just the result of his writing, but something like Truth of The Universe, who embodies the whole Real World and can use haxes this powerful because it is the whole cosmology, affecting whatever being is in it like The Player or Dark Dragon. Like any single character that embodies a comsology can use its hax that strong as they are said cosmology, why Arceus shouldn't? It has created its own realm like Creation Trio has created the multiverse, and like they scale to such in hax, True Form Arceus should, given that they can manipulate and sustain the multiverse in the same way Arceus does with its own Low 1-C realm, given that Arceus IS THE WHOLE POKEMON REALITY ITSELF.

It still has nothing besides upscaling from its avatars.

It's the opposite, given the avatars receive their powers to a limited scale as they are just a piece of the true form. Just like their AP is just 4D as they don't scale to the True Form's AP given the lack of feats on such level, because, again, said their AP is not the full thing, the hax should too for the same reason. This is not Infinite Zamasu who becomes 4D, but all his hax remain 3D because he has nothing suggesting his powers besides AP got upgraded, this is the opposite as IS THE AVATARS WHO GOT THEIR STUFF FROM THE TRUE FORM ON A LIMITED WAY. Like their AP/Hax is limited to 2-A as is not comparable to the True Form in feats, True Form should upscale to 5D in both AP and Hax, given is the avatars who get a limited version of the True Form's power, and not the other way around. Because again, Arceus is not like Mashymre. Is like ToTU here, and has 5D feats of creation/sustenance like Creation Trio does with the 2-A multiverse.

I hope this nonsense ends here ngl.

 

[Dust_Collector]

I think true form Arceus' hax is 3D

 

[BlackDarkness679]

Why would it just upscale from avatars, true form will in another league in all there is, as pointed by others in here against this

 

[Pikaman]

Heck, it doesn’t even upscale from its avatar, the avatar downscales from it

 

[Ego]

This CRT is literally just because of True Arceus Vs True enerjak lol

 

[Pikaman]

Less a CRT and more a question on the Wiki’s stance

 

[Everything12]

@Antvasima

This is a question that is asking about Higher-Dimensional Existence and how it relates to Hax potency, having some more staff here who can answer this would be helpful.