High 6-C General Zod

[Marvel_Champion_07]

Currently, General Zod doesn't scale to peak MoS Superman because he was fatigued during his fight

A toppling skyscraper clipped him on its way down, swatting him to Earth. He crashed into a deserted street a few blocks beyond the circle of destruction.

This can’t go on, he thought. The whole city is coming down on top of us.

He staggered to his feet, reeling. He had been going nonstop for hours now, first against the World Machine, then the singularity, and now Zod. He needed a moment to recharge.

However, the VFX people stated that Zod and MoS Superman were at the height of their powers, as per this source. So even though Clark is exhausted, they were both still at their peak when they clash on the building side

This affects characters such as Doomsday (who is stronger than General Zod), Wonder Woman, Steppenwolf, Aquaman and their SnyderVerse counterparts

 

[AnonymousBlank]

Good to see my knowledge is being put to use, agree.

Edit: Also gonna point out that this would apply to DD, Diana and the rest of her tier in ZS:JL.

I think we might need to make a small CRT for Supes, Adam, Sabbac and Fate to scale above the Karathen too. Adam is the strongest thing on the planet and the rest scale to or above him.

 

[Qawsedf234]

I'll still take the novelization's events over the statement. We see that Superman at peak condition stomps people who can fight Zod's enhanced Doomsday form, so unless he was holding back the entire time the only way it makes sense is if he was exhausted.

Though I guess the point being "Does the exhausting weaken him enough to make him thousands of times worse" might be another story.

Either way even if they did scale it'd be with a heavy downscaling treatment.

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

Edit: Also gonna point out that this would apply to DD, Diana and the rest of her tier in ZS:JL.

RIP to my Steppenwolf vs S&L Superman match then

I think we might need to make a small CRT for Supes, Adam, Sabbac and Fate to scale above the Karathen too. Adam is the strongest thing on the planet and the rest scale to or above him.

True, though there is this alleged statement, but there is no scan so does it even exist?

I'll still take the novelization's events over the statement. We see that Superman at peak condition stomps people who can fight Zod's enhanced Doomsday form, so unless he was holding back the entire time the only way it makes sense is if he was exhausted.

Though I guess the point being "Does the exhausting weaken him enough to make him thousands of times worse" might be another story.

Either way even if they did scale it'd be with a heavy downscaling treatment.

Then perhaps "At most High 6-C" or "At least 7-C, likely High 6-C"

Or we make separate keys for Man of Steel and Batman v Superman (2016) - Justice League (2017) (in which BvS/JL Superman is stronger) and Doomsday scales to BvS Superman while Zod only scales to MoS Superman. I'm going too deep into this

 

[Qawsedf234]

Then perhaps "At most High 6-C" or "At least 7-C, likely High 6-C"

Probably be "At least 7-C, at most High 6-C" or something like that.

 

[Excellence616]

Agree with op

 

[AnonymousBlank]

RIP to my Steppenwolf vs S&L Superman match then

At least a goated Superman won’t have an L on his profile

True, though there is this alleged statement, but there is no source, so does it even exist?

Personally never seen it myself but it would be retconned by in and out of universe statements contradicting it.

I'll still take the novelization's events over the statement. We see that Superman at peak condition stomps people who can fight Zod's enhanced Doomsday form, so unless he was holding back the entire time the only way it makes sense is if he was exhausted.

This only works under the assumption that Superman doesn’t get stronger between MoS and BvS, something that is directly stated to not be the case on multiple occasions.

• Guide to the Man of Steel says BvS are his toughest trials yet (Batman with Kryptonite and Doomsday being > Zod)
• BvS: DoJ Annual 2015 and Guide to the Caped Crusader both state that Batman has been worried about Superman’s growing powers for years.

Combine those scans with Jor-El’s statement of Clark pushing his limits making him stronger and Clark becoming = Faora and Nam-Ek after getting slumped and bit of sunlight, and we have a lovely cocktail of that ray of sun on Clark’s hand after the World Engine making him > the MoS that one shot the WE which also nerfed his powers.

Though I guess the point being "Does the exhausting weaken him enough to make him thousands of times worse" might be another story.

Either way even if they did scale it'd be with a heavy downscaling treatment.

There’s no need for downscaling as BvS Supes =< Final form DD (post Superman’s return to Death of Superman) > 3rd form DD (nuke to Superman’s return) > 2nd form DD (Lex tower to nuke) > Kryptonite nerfed Supes =< 1st form DD (just born to Lex tower) > Flying Zod > Metropolis Zod = Metropolis Supes > WE Supes.

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

At least a goated Superman won’t have an L on his profile

Agreed. He has too many Ls, he needs another W

This only works under the assumption that Superman doesn’t get stronger between MoS and BvS, something that is directly stated to not be the case on multiple occasions.

• Guide to the Man of Steel says BvS are his toughest trials yet (Batman with Kryptonite and Doomsday being > Zod)
• BvSoJ Annual 2015 and Guide to the Caped Crusader both state that Batman has been worried about Superman’s growing powers for years.

Combine those scans with Jor-El’s statement of Clark pushing his limits making him stronger and Clark becoming = Faora and Nam-Ek after getting slumped and bit of sunlight, and we have a lovely cocktail of that ray of sun on Clark’s hand after the World Engine making him > the MoS that one shot the WE which also nerfed his powers.

So I guess we can do this?:

we make separate keys for Man of Steel and Batman v Superman (2016) - Justice League (2017) (in which BvS/JL Superman is stronger) and Doomsday scales to BvS Superman while Zod only scales to MoS Superman

 

[Qawsedf234]

we have a lovely cocktail of that ray of sun on Clark’s hand after the World Engine making him > the MoS that one shot the WE which also nerfed his powers.

He can't be. The internal narration from Superman himself noted that he had not recovered from the World Engine and the Phantom Zone drained him right afterwards. Even if peak MoS Superman > World Engine Superman; Zod wouldn't scale to either.

There’s no need for downscaling as BvS Supes =< Final form DD (post Superman’s return to Death of Superman) > 3rd form DD (nuke to Superman’s return) > 2nd form DD (Lex tower to nuke) > Kryptonite nerfed Supes =< 1st form DD (just born to Lex tower) > Flying Zod > Metropolis Zod = Metropolis Supes > WE Supes.

Being real this is a hard-to-read list for me.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

Agreed. He has too many Ls, he needs another W

So I guess we can do this?:

Eh, I suppose we could but BvS is just higher into High 6-C.

He can't be. The internal narration from Superman himself noted that he had not recovered from the World Engine and the Phantom Zone drained him right afterwards. Even if peak MoS Superman > World Engine Superman; Zod wouldn't scale to either.

Superman says he is tired and that he isn’t at full capacity, yes. That doesn’t contradict the VFX statement telling us that he is stronger than he was when performing the WE feat. We already have an almost 1:1 situation of this in Smallville where he becomes equal to something that bullies and KOs him after a bit of sunlight. The only reason it isn’t 1:1 is because the WE also weakened Supes when he did it so without the Kryptonian atmosphere, he would be even stronger.

Being real this is a hard-to-read list for me.

Lmao, fair. Shorthand is BvS Supes =< Final DD > all the evolutions > Zod = MoS > WE Superman > WE

 

[Qawsedf234]

Superman says he is tired and that he isn’t at full capacity, yes. That doesn’t contradict the VFX statement telling us that he is stronger than he was when performing the WE feat.

It does, because the following part of that quote was Superman attempting to get back to his normal strength but being interrupted by Zod.

He needed a moment to recharge.

But Zod gave him no respite.

Plus at the end of the fight he had to go 100% with he remaining power to even win

It was Zod's life- or the lives of innocents. He marshaled every ource of strength that remained within him. And then...

He snapped Zod's neck.

He was just weakened overall for the entire thing.

WE also weakened Supes when he did it so without the Kryptonian atmosphere

WE weakened Superman because of it making a Kryptonian atmosphere. Along with the general pressure of the gravity beam.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

It does, because the following part of that quote was Superman attempting to get back to his normal strength but being interrupted by Zod.

I’m not disagreeing with Supes not being at his full strength. I’m saying that his weakened strength at that point is above the WE feat, which again, isn’t contradicted. The movie tells and shows us on multiple occasions that the more he pushes himself, the stronger he becomes so when he strains himself more than he ever has before, he logically becomes stronger than he ever was before, aka >>> him performing the WE feat.

Plus at the end of the fight he had to go 100% with he remaining power to even win

And? Flying Zod was beating him up and was stronger than him. Supes needing all of his power at the time to snap his neck is perfectly normal.

He was just weakened overall for the entire thing.

I refer you to what I said above.

WE weakened Superman because of it making a Kryptonian atmosphere. Along with the general pressure of the gravity beam.

If you accept that to be the case when Supes one shot the WE, then you also have to accept that he would be stronger against Zod since he doesn’t have those nerfs on him and is stated to be stronger than he ever was when the two clash on the side of the building.

Your entire argument assumes that it has to be either A or B when it doesn’t and refuses to reconcile both statements when they aren’t mutually exclusive.

 

[Qawsedf234]

hen you also have to accept that he would be stronger against Zod since he doesn’t have those nerfs on him

I don't, because he never recovered from the strain of those events.

Flying Zod was beating him up and was stronger than him

Zod was never stronger than Superman. He lost while Superman didn't want to kill him and was still weakened from other events.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

I don't, because he never recovered from the strain of those events.

And you keep ignoring the fact that he doesn’t need to recover from those events to be stronger. His fullpower > his weakened power vs Zod > his old limit > the WE feat.

Zod was never stronger than Superman. He lost while Superman didn't want to kill him and was still weakened from other events.

Zod literally was stronger than Supes when they fight. Pre-flight had him clash evenly with Supes and once he ditched his armor, he was stated to be absorbing more sunlight which, as the source of their powers, makes him stronger than Supes’ strength at that point in time. This is supported by Zod pin balling Supes to space and back, landing more hits and controlling the flow of the fight for most of it until the end where Supes gets lucky enough to put him in a hold when they crash land.

Stop cherrypicking bits and pieces of my post and actually address my arguments and the scaling within them. You ignore a direct statement that Supes was stronger than ever in favor of a statement that doesn’t contradict it outside of your personal opinion, you claim BvS Supes = WE Supes but don’t refute three statements that would make Supes stronger than he was in his first movie, I point out several pieces of evidence in multiple scenes of MoS which support Supes getting massively stronger when he pushes himself with an almost perfect comparison to the WE feat yet there is naught but crickets from you about it etc. There’s no rebuttal, no refutation, no debunk, no counter argument or anything, just disagreement with no basis. Can you please address my points and scans instead of dancing around them?

 

[KLOL506]

Wouldn't Zod at the very least be 7-A to High 7-A based on massively-weakened Supes one-shotting the World Engine which survived its re-entry?

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

Wouldn't Zod at the very least be 7-A to High 7-A based on massively-weakened Supes one-shotting the World Engine which survived its re-entry?

World Engine's AP and durability both fully scale to High 6-C

 

[KLOL506]

World Engine's AP and durability both fully scale to High 6-C

Ah.

That being said, massively-weakened Superman still one-shot it. So I'm not sure what the issue is of scaling Zod to it when this is already nowhere near Superman's peak. Superman would massively upscale from the World Engine when at full power.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Can you please address my points and scans instead of dancing around them?

At the moment I have no proper rebuttal to the idea that Superman fighting Zod wasn't at least comparable to his WE feat self.

So sure, I guess the scaling can go back to as it was with Superman just upscaling higher from the original feat.

you claim BvS Supes = WE Supes

I didn't make that claim. I said that Superman at full strength was notably stronger than people comparable to Doomsday, who had multiple power increases over his base form which is already superior to Zod.

Which is why I found the scaling iffy. But since Superman has AD or something akin to it, then it wouldn't matter much for scaling as you mentioned. A weakened Superman can still be comparable or stronger than another weakened Superman.

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

Eh, I suppose we could but BvS is just higher into High 6-C.

Yeah, but there's also the scaling to Karathen, which would only apply to BvS-JL Superman and not MoS Superman. I just find it a bit easier to separate MoS from BvS-JL to prevent confusion like General Zod mistakenly scaling to Karathen

Though maybe we can leave the separation of keys for that Karathen CRT which I call dibs on

 

[AnonymousBlank]

snip

Sorry if I was being pissy. All nighters ain’t conducive to patience.

Yeah, but there's also the scaling to Karathen, which would only apply to BvS-JL Superman and not MoS Superman. I just find it a bit easier to separate MoS from BvS-JL to prevent confusion like General Zod mistakenly scaling to Karathen

True enough though the Karathen scaling technically only applies to JL since the statements are for current Supes. (Don’t remember if my argument for post-nuke Supes still being weakened is accepted).

Though maybe we can leave the separation of keys for that Karathen CRT which I call dibs on

By all means, I’m not a fan of making CRTs

 

[Lacku]

If Superman upscales that World Engine feat so much why don't we change his rating from just "High 6-C" to "At least High 6-C, likely higher" or even "far higher"?

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

If Superman upscales that World Engine feat so much why don't we change his rating from just "High 6-C" to "At least High 6-C, likely higher"

This can work, yes. Or at the very least "At least High 6-C"

(Don’t remember if my argument for post-nuke Supes still being weakened is accepted).

It's accepted, yes. I was thinking of BvS Superman as more so him at his peak in the movie (pre-Kryptonite) and not post-nuke, since I'm pretty sure a peak BvS Superman is as strong as, or at least not all that much weaker than, JL Superman (then again I could be wrong)

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

I think we might need to make a small CRT for Supes, Adam, Sabbac and Fate to scale above the Karathen too. Adam is the strongest thing on the planet and the rest scale to or above him.

Here it is

By all means, I’m not a fan of making CRTs

Understandable. I felt uneasy when trying to post this one