Hellsing: Schrodinger revision

[ImmortalDread]

I share the same persuasion as @Bobsican and agree with the rest.

 

[LordGinSama]

I'd rather ask first how it'd be "advanced" NPI over just NPI, the ability doesn't seem above baseline, but rather just can affect more than one kind of intangible stuff going by the proposal, so it'd be best to just index that as NPI then just mention to what exactly.

Alucard already has normal NPI, this would be adding more layers on top of that.

Either way, I'm unsure on that, characters often have "real" illusions and we don't grant them anything beyond Subjective Reality, and something being an

I've literally seen people get NEP and such for existing as only an illusion. Zorin's illusions aren't real and do not exist physically, Subjective Reality has nothing to do with NPI. Alucard also effected himself after being erased from existence.

 

[Bobsican]

I wouldn't say "layers" as it doesn't mean he can now affect someone with NEP above baseline (as far I can see with what's provided anyways), instead just that he can affect more kinds of intangible beings.

...That's part of my point, Subjective Reality has nothing to do with NPI, so I'm unsure how that'd support it. If you mean that interacting with something coming from SR that is "not real", then I'd prefer if ther was more proof on this qualifying for NPI, like that not being usually interactuable by the average character. The so-called EE is also already quite on dispute out of the whole deal with the blood, so I wouldn't rely too much on that.

 

[LordGinSama]

The so-called EE is also already quite on dispute out of the whole deal with the blood, so I wouldn't rely too much on that.

The EE is not on dispute, this is both shown and stated, same thing with the blood. Both me and Random have told you this countless times, Alucard was indeed erased and the blood does in fact carry the soul and mind.



Stop bringing up old shit that we've already gone over.




Schrodinger Subjective Reality has nothing to do with his NPI Bob, your confusing yourself for literally no reason.

 

[Bobsican]

I'm still allowed to disagree myself, now what is the current general consensus is another thing.

Well, may you please explain further the NPI reasoning then?

 

[LordGinSama]

I'm still allowed to disagree myself, now what is the current general consensus is another thing.

That's fine, you can disagree all you want but that doesn't make your opinion right. This thread has been held up long enough, so if you want to create a thread about Alucard's already accepted feat of Regeneration from Erasure then you can go ahead and make a seperate CRT if you disagree.

Well, may you please explain further the NPI reasoning then?

I already provided two reasons why he needs advanced NPI, up-scaling from Alucard's Base NPI, physically effecting Zorin's illusions and effecting himself after being erased from existence.

 

[Random-Helper323]

This thread has been held up long enough

I agree, I was thinking I'd discuss the AP and speed stuff but in a later thread. I'd like to go over that with you, actually. I've got a possible speed and AP upgrade in mind as you know.

so if you want to create a thread about Alucard's already accepted feat of Regeneration from Erasure then you can go ahead and make a seperate CRT if you disagree.

I have a few thoughts about Schrodinger as well but I think I might discuss that with Bobsican so we can come to some sort of arrangement. That way any Schrodinger discussion won't be a shambles.

I already provided two reasons why he needs advanced NPI, up-scaling from Alucard's Base NPI

Does it really upscale? I suppose he couldn't kill Schrodinger before.

physically effecting Zorin's illusions

I do have an issue with this; the fact that Schrodinger acted like he was climbing but didn't actually demonstrate any ability to move the illusionary objects around.

and effecting himself after being erased from existence.

We can certainly agree he was without any physical form, which goes beyond intangibility. Is that a different type of NPI or just a note that he can kill something that doesn't have any physical form to attack?

 

[LordGinSama]

I have a few thoughts about Schrodinger as well but I think I might discuss that with Bobsican so we can come to some sort of arrangement. That way any Schrodinger discussion won't be a shambles.

Bobsican isn't knowledgeable regarding the verse so he most likely wouldn't be of very much help tbh.

Does it really upscale? I suppose he couldn't kill Schrodinger before.

Yeah absolutely, remember Schrodinger can affect himself despite being made of his own thoughts. Up-scaling from his base NPI should acceptable.

I do have an issue with this; the fact that Schrodinger acted like he was climbing but didn't actually demonstrate any ability to move the illusionary objects around.

I mean that doesn't really debunk anything he never tried to move any of the illusionary objects around. He can just exist there physically and grab the space / boarders with his hands as if it were a solid.

 

[Random-Helper323]

Bobsican isn't knowledgeable regarding the verse so he most likely wouldn't be of very much help tbh.

Really? It seemed he was.

Yeah absolutely, remember Schrodinger can affect himself despite being made of his own thoughts. Up-scaling from his base NPI should acceptable.

Well, Alucard already possessed NPI, as did Seras, and yet neither of them seemed to be able to kill Schrodinger, although admittedly neither of them tried to destroy his soul. And yet later on Alucard evidently can kill souls that have the same nature as Schrodinger's own, so that does suggest some kind of improvement, maybe due to Alucard's own soul and NPI also having that nature.

I mean that doesn't really debunk anything he never tried to move any of the illusionary objects around. He can just exist there physically and grab the space / boarders with his hands as if it were a solid.

My concern isn't so much about it debunking the ability to move things around in the illusion, it's more that it means Schrodinger didn't provably demonstrate the ability to physically affect the objects in Zorin's illusion. If the fact that he acts like he is touching them is enough to make the small stretch that he can physically affect them, that's fine, it's just that he didn't actually affect them for us to see.

 

[Bobsican]

I'm not particularly knowledgeable into the verse, but generally you'd cite past revisions to back up a claim, either way I'll sort out in DMs the issues I may have with Random.

 

[Antvasima]

What are the conclusions here so far?

 

[ImmortalDread]

What are the conclusions here so far?

No NEP as it is not sufficient.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Going to say that I don't think Alucard killing his own souls qualifies as Advanced NPI or NPI that would be able to harm characters with NEP.
Schrödingers power doesn't just make you not exist. It more makes you "maybe exist" (as in quantum mechanical superpositions are at play).
Like, fundamentally Schrödinger's power is based on Schrödinger's Cat, that's in a state of "maybe alive". That cat could eat a treat someone left in the box like normal. Just that it would only have "maybe happened" until someone definitely observes it.
Similarly, Alucard within his catbox can probably kill his own lives as normal, while from the outside he remains caught in his paradoxical state.

It's kinda debatable whether he can do what he did to the lives inside himself to others anyway.

 

[ImmortalDread]

But NEP's argument has no evidence to back it up (even the scan does not refer it).
Pardon me, but you're using Wikipedia as source for the ability is a bad argument and also incognizant. Also, from where is the <literal illusion> coming from?
Read @Random-Helper323 argument for the quantum physics reference, as it actually makes sense why he said it and nothing here refers to NEP.

Also, to make my comment a bit more crystal clear:

---

“Cluster of imaginary numbers” is referring to the fact that the wave function is a complex-valued function.
And the: “neither dead nor alive” is a reference to both Schrödinger's cat and quantum superposition in general.
The nature of imaginary numbers is being roots of the equation x² + b = 0 for b > 0.
Imaginary numbers have no relation whatsoever to NEP, neither the binary terms refer to any existence/nonexistence and -1 being result of not both.

People seem to think imaginary numbers are some kind of mystical made up numbers.
So to elucidate, they're neither fabricated nor mystical, they are just as “real” as Real numbers are (and both are conceptional constructs anyway).

Note: and i is not √-1, the square root function is only defined for positive real numbers.

In my all honestly, I have never seen this scan brought in any argument exchange when we were arguing for NEP 3. And I assume @Dereck03 share the same view point since he shared me all relevant posts regarding it in this thread. I apologize for overlooking it, but I am hearing it for the first time.

Either, let's go to the scan. Nothing suggests either for NEP 3 at all.


In your scan, it never states like that.

All your scan refers to is Schrödinger's cat is a thought experiment in quantum mechanics that was proposed by the physicist Erwin Schrödinger in 1935. It involves a scenario in which a cat is placed in a sealed box with a device that has a 50% chance of releasing a lethal poison. According to the principles of quantum mechanics, until the box is opened, and the contents are observed, the cat is both alive and dead, existing in a state of superposition. The thought experiment is used to illustrate the concept of quantum superposition, as well as the idea that observation and measurement can affect the outcome of events.

The phrase “Cheshire cat” refers to a fictional character from Lewis Carroll's Alice's Adventures in Wonderland. The Cheshire cat is known for its enigmatic smile and its ability to disappear and reappear at will.

In the context of the sentence you provided, it seems to be suggesting that the person in question is like Schrödinger's cat in that they are able to exist in multiple states simultaneously, and also like the Cheshire cat in that they are able to jump around and be present in various places at different times. It is not entirely clear what is meant by the phrase “a world where the probability of existence is equivocal,” but it may be recommending that the person's existence is uncertain or difficult to define.

@DontTalkDT I have given a deep clarification regarding this, what do you think?

 

[DontTalkDT]

I would assume the "equivocal" bit refers to the existence being in a superposition.

But yeah, I can generally agree that Schrödinger's ability has to primarily be seen through the lense of quantum mechanics. It appears to be, in its entirety, a play on quantum effects.

 

[Random-Helper323]

My large concern with NEP is that Alucard doesn't have any ability to choose not to exist, so at very best it wasn't combat applicable, but indeed, Schrodinger always seemed more like a maybe than anything else. I would however figure he could interact with souls he couldn't before, since he couldn't kill Schrodinger earlier.

My issue with the Mid-Godly regeneration was always that we weren't sure Alucard's soul was physical like his blood was, and I also have some misgivings about it when some of his blood still physically remained on the ground afterwards, deliberately arranged into his pattern as if it was still connected to him or something. That's why it became possibly.

 

[LordGinSama]

Why are we sitting here still talking about NEP whenever I dropped that a hot minute ago?

Going to say that I don't think Alucard killing his own souls qualifies as Advanced NPI or NPI that would be able to harm characters with NEP.

That wouldn't be the cause of his advanced NPI, it comes from Alucard still being able to somehow effect himself and take some action after he was erased from existence.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Why are we sitting here still talking about NEP whenever I dropped that a hot minute ago?

It was @DontTalkDT, don't blame me

 

[LordGinSama]

It was @DontTalkDT, don't blame me

I say we blame Damage instead.

 

[ImmortalDread]

I say we blame Damage instead.

Yes true true

 

[Antvasima]

So what has been accepted and what has been rejected by our staff members here?

 

[LordGinSama]

Bump, NEP was dropped awhile ago so I'm not sure why that's still even being mentioned. I think DontTalk might have gotten confused with the current discussion.

So what has been accepted and what has been rejected by our staff members here?

The accepted ones are Possible Mid-Godly regeneration, Type 1 AE, Subjective Reality & Unconventional resistance to absorption.


Rejected would be NEP


Currently being discussed is the NPI.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

The OP looks good to me.

 

[Antvasima]

The accepted ones are Possible Mid-Godly regeneration, Type 1 AE, Subjective Reality & Unconventional resistance to absorption.

Rejected would be NEP

Currently being discussed is the NPI.

Okay. The accepted parts are probably fine to apply then.

 

[LordGinSama]

Okay so I'll go ahead and apply the accepted changes, this can be closed now.

 

[Crabwhale]

You sure?

 

[LordGinSama]

You sure?

Yeah I'll save the NPI stuff for a separate thread. The rest is gucci to add since they've been accepted already.

 

[Crabwhale]

Whatever you say, magic man. Closing thread.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you to everybody who helped out here.