Heatran (Pokemon upgrade)

[Gohanblanco217]

The Pikachu and Piplup feat either means they're 2-A, its an "outlier", or they get upgraded to tier 6.

Actually why is heatran High 6-A l in the first place ? He got harmed by tier 7 pokemons and was literally gonna die by a tier 7 explosion :

 

[Arceus0x]

Actually why is heatran High 6-A l in the first place ? He got harmed by tier 7 pokemons and was literally gonna die by a tier 7 explosion :

this sometimes happens in the anime. Zapdos got beat up by a few of ash's pokemon back in the day, an articuno got beat up by ash's charizard, doesn't invalidate them fighting Lugia now does it?

 

[Arceus0x]

Actually why is heatran High 6-A l in the first place ? He got harmed by tier 7 pokemons and was literally gonna die by a tier 7 explosion :

also blowing away an entire mountain doesn't mean its only tier 7, it could be far higher as this is just an estimate brock made on the spot

 

[Arceus0x]

But then does Heatran have any high 6-A feat ? The profile says that he faught Regigigas with no scan backing them up

you must be either blind or have a site banned for you because it's literally right there on th eprofile

 

[Gohanblanco217]

you must be either blind or have a site banned for you because it's literally right there on th eprofile

Huh ??? I literally clicked before and no scans were showing up, nevermind it worked now lol

 

[Arceus0x]

Huh ??? I literally clicked before and no scans were showing up, nevermind it worked now lol

big oof

 

[Gohanblanco217]

this sometimes happens in the anime. Zapdos got beat up by a few of ash's pokemon back in the day, an articuno got beat up by ash's charizard, doesn't invalidate them fighting Lugia now does it?

But then shouldn't we just upgrade the tier 7 pokemons to tier 6 in that case ?

 

[Arceus0x]

But then shouldn't we just upgrade the tier 7 pokemons to tier 6 in that case ?

no because pretty much any normal pokemon on legendary fight is considered an outlier on this wiki due to the nature of a pikachu harming pokemon that warp the multiverse being quite outliery.
Even if you try it'll just get shut down and if you were to miraculously succeed you'd still only upgrade ash's pokemon and such.

 

[GyroNutz]

Actually why is heatran High 6-A l in the first place ? He got harmed by tier 7 pokemons and was literally gonna die by a tier 7 explosion :

It was said later in the episode that the entire Sinnoh region would have been destroyed. Plus Heatran at that point was clearly already weakened by a lot.

But yeah I don't think that flame monster Heatran thing should be tier 2

 

[Gohanblanco217]

It was said later in the episode that the entire Sinnoh region would have been destroyed. Plus Heatran at that point was clearly already weakened by a lot.

It was stated that Sinnoh region is gonna suffer tons of damage and not that it was gonna get destroyed :

but anyway it seems that everyone agree with space-time manip and large size so I think it can now be added to heatran profile

 

[GyroNutz]

It was stated that Sinnoh region is gonna suffer tons of damage and not that it was gonna get destroyed :

Right near the episode I believe, it was said that the whole of Sinnoh would've been destroyed.

 

[Arceus0x]

just for fun, to create an explosion that completely destroys sinnoh you'd need 173980848165 tons of tnt or 173 gigatons, High 6-C. It is the minimum and a very wack assumption as i got the area from taking the area of hokkaido, making it a circle and assuming the radius. If I was serious then id calc the furthest point of hokkaido to the mountain in question and use that.

 

[NeoZex6399]

According to Regigigas' dex, Hisui (aka Sinnoh) is a continent.

 

[Arceus0x]

According to Regigigas' dex, Hisui (aka Sinnoh) is a continent.

the world of pokemon is based on our world with some geographical differences. Sinnoh is based on Hokkaido

 

[Gohanblanco217]

Right near the episode I believe, it was said that the whole of Sinnoh would've been destroyed.

I watched the 4 episodes like 3 times and no this wasn't mentioned anywhere

 

[XXKINGXX69]

doesn't change much. The lake trio still did less damage to Heatran than a freaking piplup. We cannot assume that pikachu and piplup are 2-A all of a sudden and adding up all of the context it just makes it even more reasonable to say that Heatran doesn't scale to 2-A.

I mean let's face it, the only time he even affected the physical bodies of the lake trio was when they got slightly blow back when they got hit by some wind. At this point it is easier to say that the avatars of the lake trios in this situation were weaker than usual instead of saying that Heatrun can beat up a multiverse buster because he was getting powered up by a plate out of which he couldn't even draw all of the energy.

In fact he was most likely indeed just drawing 'some of the energy'. Team galactic used a stress machine to inflict stress upon the plate to extract energy and Heatran went berserk by giving it too much energy and going out of control. If the stress machine didn't pull out all of the energy then so shouldn't heatran.

Alright, lets downgrade the Lake Trio to below High 7-A. I also am gonna need proof that Piplup isn't 2-A, since you like bringing up horrible comparisons and anti feats

Even more headcanon of the Lake Trio being weaker than usual

Even more headcanon and cherry picking to wank Arceus. Their machine was used to amplify Heatran's power, Heatran absorbed it, couldn't handle it, and had to take on a new form to use its power, not a portion of the power

 

[Hasty12345]

Ash's Pikachu being 2-A fixes everything, let's just do that

 

[Arceus0x]

Alright, lets downgrade the Lake Trio to below High 7-A. I also am gonna need proof that Piplup isn't 2-A, since you like bringing up horrible comparisons and anti feats

Even more headcanon of the Lake Trio being weaker than usual

Even more headcanon and cherry picking to wank Arceus. Their machine was used to amplify Heatran's power, Heatran absorbed it, couldn't handle it, and had to take on a new form to use its power, not a portion of the power

I'mma just stop replying to you after this comment since i am tired of dealing with your bs every day of my already hard life.

Horrible comparisons? Anti-feats? You are trying to upgrade Heatran of a vague-ass feat that doesn't support shit. He has no 2-A feats, he's never hurt a single member of the lake trio and at best he slightly released the abilities of the plate.

Headcannon? Shut tf up, at this point it's pot calling the kettle back. You just proposed to nerf the lake trio to high 7-A based on a weird interaction from an anime filled with weird internactions. The lake trio broke the red chain and stopped dialga and palkia in the games, they also were able to parry attacks for the CT in the manga. If that ain't dumber than what i proposed then idk what is.
Also how is it headcanon? Headcanon is when i say something that i assumed is canon when in reality it isn't. What i said was what was shown. Lake trio never got properly harmed by Heatran, Heatran never absorbed the plate but just made it go berserk by pouring energy into it.

They literally used a stress machine to make the plate work and then used a massive energy attack from Heatran to make it release even more energy. He never absorbed it, in fact, Heatran was the one absorbed by the lava form which appeared due to the fact that some energy traveled back at heatran and made his abilities go berserk. Unless you can provide evidence that he used the full power of the plate and not just used it as a battery then you ain't gonna upgrade anything.

Also i think the fact that the explosion that would kill heatran would only destroy Sinnoh and not, you know, the universe, is enough proof that he doesn't constantly use 2-A levels of energy. Just because an electric hairdryer has a nuclear reactor powering it up doesn't mean the hairdryer is 7-C does it? Neither does being slightly powered up by a plate mean that you're using full 2-A energy.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

I'mma just stop replying to you after this comment since i am tired of dealing with your bs every day of my already hard life.

Horrible comparisons? Anti-feats? You are trying to upgrade Heatran of a vague-ass feat that doesn't support shit. He has no 2-A feats, he's never hurt a single member of the lake trio and at best he slightly released the abilities of the plate.

Headcannon? Shut tf up, at this point it's pot calling the kettle back. You just proposed to nerf the lake trio to high 7-A based on a weird interaction from an anime filled with weird internactions. The lake trio broke the red chain and stopped dialga and palkia in the games, they also were able to parry attacks for the CT in the manga. If that ain't dumber than what i proposed then idk what is.
Also how is it headcanon? Headcanon is when i say something that i assumed is canon when in reality it isn't. What i said was what was shown. Lake trio never got properly harmed by Heatran, Heatran never absorbed the plate but just made it go berserk by pouring energy into it.

They literally used a stress machine to make the plate work and then used a massive energy attack from Heatran to make it release even more energy. He never absorbed it, in fact, Heatran was the one absorbed by the lava form which appeared due to the fact that some energy traveled back at heatran and made his abilities go berserk. Unless you can provide evidence that he used the full power of the plate and not just used it as a battery then you ain't gonna upgrade anything.

Also i think the fact that the explosion that would kill heatran would only destroy Sinnoh and not, you know, the universe, is enough proof that he doesn't constantly use 2-A levels of energy. Just because an electric hairdryer has a nuclear reactor powering it up doesn't mean the hairdryer is 7-C does it? Neither does being slightly powered up by a plate mean that you're using full 2-A energy.

So when Arceus and the creation trio get hurt by anyone else, its an outlier, but when the lake trio do their best to try and stop Heatran and fail, it means the Lake Trio are holding back? Makes total sense

He is empowered by the plate, the plate scales to 2-A since the plates just existing give Arceus the ability to live, and without them, he starts dying. Even the plates just existing provide a large portion of Arceus' power. And its never stated that he's using a portion of the plate's power, so its best to say its all its power

 

[Arceus0x]

So when Arceus and the creation trio get hurt by anyone else, its an outlier, but when the lake trio do their best to try and stop Heatran and fail, it means the Lake Trio are holding back? Makes total sense

I already said, they didn't do their best. They used attacks once where they blocked some attacks flawlessly and when the lifted up Ash and Co. They never used their full power otherwise they'd be spamming attacks like when they dealt with the red chain.

He is empowered by the plate, the plate scales to 2-A since the plates just existing give Arceus the ability to live, and without them, he starts dying. Even the plates just existing provide a large portion of Arceus' power. And its never stated that he's using a portion of the plate's power, so its best to say its all its power

He got hit by the energy of the plate which made him go berserk. Yes he's using the energy of the plate but you provide no evidence that he's using the full energy of the plate and using Arceus, the guy who's plates are a part of him, as an argument that a random heatran with a fire attack could fully control a plate that made all fire types moves in the first place is wrong. Also the plates give arceus power to transform into different types, Arceus even without the plates is 2-A.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

I already said, they didn't do their best. They used attacks once where they blocked some attacks flawlessly and when the lifted up Ash and Co. They never used their full power otherwise they'd be spamming attacks like when they dealt with the red chain.



He got hit by the energy of the plate which made him go berserk. Yes he's using the energy of the plate but you provide no evidence that he's using the full energy of the plate and using Arceus, the guy who's plates are a part of him, as an argument that a random heatran with a fire attack could fully control a plate that made all fire types moves in the first place is wrong. Also the plates give arceus power to transform into different types, Arceus even without the plates is 2-A.

Can you show me them blocking attacks? They also didnt spam attacks on the Red Chain, they just used 1 attack each. So even when they barely do anything in a fight, they're still 2-A

Arceus without the plates is 2-A, but that doesn't mean he can't just be massively higher when fully plated. Its literally a dying Arceus without them. The plates also didn't even make all fire attacks, even Mew has all fire attacks, including Arceus'. There is no statement of him using just a portion of its power, so occam's razor says it should be using all of it

 

[Arceus0x]

Can you show me them blocking attacks? They also didnt spam attacks on the Red Chain, they just used 1 attack each. So even when they barely do anything in a fight, they're still 2-A

Arceus without the plates is 2-A, but that doesn't mean he can't just be massively higher when fully plated. Its literally a dying Arceus without them. The plates also didn't even make all fire attacks, even Mew has all fire attacks, including Arceus'. There is no statement of him using just a portion of its power, so occam's razor says it should be using all of it

tbh the plates are hella contradictory but you are wrong about Mew. Arceus created the plates as they were part of him and gave their power to the pokemon. You can read about it in the pokemon called gods blog. Just knowing all moves doesn't mean creating the moves.

Anyways, no matter what you say or do, the feats contradict occams razor. Heatran never harmed anyone who's 2-A or done anything remotely close to the tier. We also don't know the extent to which he was using the plate, though we do know that it wasn't enough to destroy the universe, just a region.

Even if you were correct about heatran and even if i agreed with you, you'd still get shut down by the mods since they use the same logic of you not necessarily using all of the energy of a power source.

also lemme just quote something from the wiki page about occam's razor " "Occam's Razor is, of course, not an arbitrary rule nor one justified by its practical success. It simply says that unnecessary elements in a symbolism mean nothing. Signs which serve one purpose are logically equivalent; signs which serve no purpose are logically meaningless."
that is all.

 

[Arceus0x]

sorry the image doesn't seem to work, ill try to get sth else

 

[Arceus0x]

read the durability section. There was another instance where they tanked/blocked an attack but idk where to find it atm

Uxie

Tier: 2-B, likely 2-A | 2-B, likely 2-A Key: Avatars | True Form Name: Uxie Origin: Pokémon Gender: Genderless Age: Predates reality Classification: Pokémon, Legendary Pokémon, Being of Knowledge Powers and Abilities: Attack Potency: Multiverse level, likely Multiverse level+ (Said to maintain...

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Hasty12345]

most of these scaling issues would be resolved if the avatars of the CT and LT were "varied". It's very clear the avatars are not always 2-B.

 

[Arceus0x]

most of these scaling issues would be resolved if the avatars of the CT and LT were "varied". It's very clear the avatars are not always 2-B.

you are speaking my language my guy. I was literally sitting there thinking as i sipped on my berry tea on whether or not i should try and make that CRT.
I think we need to bring it up to Strym.

 

[NeoZex6399]

Arceus without the plates is 2-A, but that doesn't mean he can't just be massively higher when fully plated. Its literally a dying Arceus without them.

Dude, that shit is exclusive to that movie alone and directly contradicts the games (and other appearances of Arceus)
In D/P/PT Arceus does not have any plates and they are scattered all over the region, in HG/SS Arceus not only does not need any plate to perform the event, but if I remember correctly, Arceus should not carry any equipped item to trigger it.
In LGA, not only Arceus never needs the plates (for obvious reasons), but creates a new plate for the encounter with the player

 

[Gohanblanco217]

you are speaking my language my guy. I was literally sitting there thinking as i sipped on my berry tea on whether or not i should try and make that CRT.
I think we need to bring it up to Strym.

most of these scaling issues would be resolved if the avatars of the CT and LT were "varied". It's very clear the avatars are not always 2-B.

I already tried to make a downgrade thread for the avatars while keeping the 2-B rating of the true forms but it simply got rejected

 

[Arceus0x]

I already tried to make a downgrade thread for the avatars while keeping the 2-B rating of the true forms but it simply got rejected

i think a downgrade is unnecessary but a "varies, up to 2-B, likely 2-A" would be a good rating that would fix many problems and nerf darkrai to 2-C

 

[XXKINGXX69]

tbh the plates are hella contradictory but you are wrong about Mew. Arceus created the plates as they were part of him and gave their power to the pokemon. You can read about it in the pokemon called gods blog. Just knowing all moves doesn't mean creating the moves.

Anyways, no matter what you say or do, the feats contradict occams razor. Heatran never harmed anyone who's 2-A or done anything remotely close to the tier. We also don't know the extent to which he was using the plate, though we do know that it wasn't enough to destroy the universe, just a region.

Even if you were correct about heatran and even if i agreed with you, you'd still get shut down by the mods since they use the same logic of you not necessarily using all of the energy of a power source.

also lemme just quote something from the wiki page about occam's razor " "Occam's Razor is, of course, not an arbitrary rule nor one justified by its practical success. It simply says that unnecessary elements in a symbolism mean nothing. Signs which serve one purpose are logically equivalent; signs which serve no purpose are logically meaningless."
that is all.

All it says is that the power was shared among Pokemon. Not that he created all their abilities.

Dialga and Palkia fighting didnt even destroy the continent. Tyranitar fighting didnt destroy a mountain. Regigigas has never destroyed anything above city level. Heatran only destroying the region or mountains isn't a limit to his AP. He doesn't need to harm 2-A beings, he uses the full power of the plates since thats the default assumption

They used protect to block Dialga and Palkia's attacks.

To conclude, the Lake Trio were fighting Heatran just like how they were fighting Dialga and Palkia, they just don't even do much, and prefer to talk to Ash, Brock and Dawn telepathically, and when they actually do attack, they're 2-A. I don't mean to offend you, but I'd recommend you watch some anime episodes

 

[Arceus0x]

Dialga and Palkia fighting didnt even destroy the continent

their prescense was warping the universe in diamond and pearl, their clashes were slowly but surely splitting space and erasing the universe, their clashes in some of the latest anime episodes were causing time and space across three separate time-space continuums to warps and twist.

They used protect to block Dialga and Palkia's attacks.

protect can be bypassed with enough AP, like how Dynamax and Gigantamax pokemon partially bypass protect and detect with their sheer potency. Protect isn't some damage nullificator, its just a barrier.

To conclude, the Lake Trio were fighting Heatran just like how they were fighting Dialga and Palkia, they just don't even do much, and prefer to talk to Ash, Brock and Dawn telepathically, and when they actually do attack, they're 2-A. I don't mean to offend you, but I'd recommend you watch some anime episodes

The lake trio actually used barriers and such to protect everyone from dialga and palkia, meanwhile in the latest episodes they used psychic once to send ash and the rest through the water that arceus created so they can carefully extract heatran. Your comparison means nothing.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

their prescense was warping the universe in diamond and pearl, their clashes were slowly but surely splitting space and erasing the universe, their clashes in some of the latest anime episodes were causing time and space across three separate time-space continuums to warps and twist.


protect can be bypassed with enough AP, like how Dynamax and Gigantamax pokemon partially bypass protect and detect with their sheer potency. Protect isn't some damage nullificator, its just a barrier.

The lake trio actually used barriers and such to protect everyone from dialga and palkia, meanwhile in the latest episodes they used psychic once to send ash and the rest through the water that arceus created so they can carefully extract heatran. Your comparison means nothing.

Yeah Pokemon tend to have better durability when using protect

They only used barriers 1 time. They sent Ash and the rest through the water because they obviously couldn't do it themselves. Thats why they also did something similar before, where they needed Ash, Dawn and Brock's help to fight Dialga and Palkia. Im saying that the Lake Trio even when they're not doing much are still 2-A

 

[Arceus0x]

Yeah Pokemon tend to have better durability when using protect

They only used barriers 1 time. They sent Ash and the rest through the water because they obviously couldn't do it themselves. Thats why they also did something similar before, where they needed Ash, Dawn and Brock's help to fight Dialga and Palkia. Im saying that the Lake Trio even when they're not doing much are still 2-A

i mean yeah they don't do much however their lore and the fact that they can block attacks from the CT is what makes them 2-A.

Meanwhile they do absolutely nothing against Heatran. Just because they did not do much against Dialga and Palkia doesn't mean that them doing nothing against Heatran makes Heatran 2-A. That's just illogical.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

i mean yeah they don't do much however their lore and the fact that they can block attacks from the CT is what makes them 2-A.

Meanwhile they do absolutely nothing against Heatran. Just because they did not do much against Dialga and Palkia doesn't mean that them doing nothing against Heatran makes Heatran 2-A. That's just illogical.

Yes, they do absolutely no damage to heatran because they are weaker than Heatran. They arent holding back just because they didnt attack much, its part of their character to just not fight much.

 

[Arceus0x]

Yes, they do absolutely no damage to heatran because they are weaker than Heatran. They arent holding back just because they didnt attack much, its part of their character to just not fight much.

that's just a baseless assumption.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

that's just a baseless assumption.

Totally baseless dude, that's why you conveniently ignored my evidence and called it illogical without elaboration

 

[Arceus0x]

Totally baseless dude, that's why you conveniently ignored my evidence and called it illogical without elaboration

i already provided my evidence for why they aren't damaging heatran for other reasons than being weaker than him. You provided bs.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

i already provided my evidence for why they aren't damaging heatran for other reasons than being weaker than him. You provided bs.

You claimed that they were holding back because they didn't even attack much, but that doesnt even mean they were holding back because theyre always like that, even when 2-A

 

[Arceus0x]

You claimed that they were holding back because they didn't even attack much, but that doesnt even mean they were holding back because theyre always like that, even when 2-A

when they had to deal with dialga and palkia they at least tried a little bit. This time they kinda just sat there for a while. This fits the idea that they didn't do much because Arceus wants to help people less so they can solve their own problems. Thus they held back.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

A held back attack from a 2-A is still going to be 2-A. I’m not seeing the actual point in mentioning that argument outside of just specifying that Heatrans flame form would just be a lot weaker than the lake guardians. Weaker =/= not in the same tier and all of us here should know this by now.

I’m honestly fine with Heatran in this form being 2-A. It doesn’t scale to anyone else but him, Arceus’a plate was doing all of the work with this form, and as someone said above, Arceus himself had to step in to resolve the issue.

Regardless of what extent, this should be 2-A. And it doesn’t conflict with any of the god tiers ratings as Heatran would be the lowest of the totem pole among them.