He-Man, Skeletor, She-Ra, etc upgrades

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

I understand if this can not go through due to lockdown, but I do want it to be ready for when we do eventually move

This was a long time coming. TL;DR - Skeletor and He-Man only being 5-A is a pretty massive lowball as even the earliest media portrays them in the universal range, with later media putting them as high as 2-A to Low 1-C. Details below.

Also, just in case it ever becomes an issue - infinite universe statements:

I have been to the bowels before of Hellskull, the Orb of Horrors. I ave peered into the infinite universes contained within. In every one of those worlds, it's you who is the ultimate evil lord of destruction Keldor

But there isn't one universe. There are thousands. Perhaps millions. Perhaps infinite

Castle Grayskull and the Power Swords
He-Man and Skeletor gain their powers from Castle Grayskull, or in some continuities, Castle Hellskull. The power of Castle Grayskull is actually quite consistent across the franchise. In Eternity War, the Castle was described as having the magic that created the universe.

Eternia is home to the magic that created the universe. If our world were to be destroyed, the very fabric of reality would unravel. Do you understand, Adam? As Eternia fares, so fares the universe

Now, you might say that being powered by a universal thing means nothing, and you are right, but the power Grayskull bestows upon its wielders is also consistently around this level.

In the second story of the original He-Man comics, it is said anyone who had the power of Grayskull would control the universe.

It is said that whoever controls the castle controls the universe

This by itself may be a hyperbolic claim, but it's backed up as being literal in later sources, such as:
The Dolph Lundgren film - After Skeletor gains the power of Grayskull, he becomes one with the universe.

I feel the Universe...within me. I am a part of the Cosmos. Its energy flows...flows through me. Of what consequence are you now? This planet, these people...they are nothing to me! The Universe is power! Pure, unstoppable power! And I am the force! I am that power! Kneel before your master! Fool! You are no longer my equal. I am more than man. More than life! I...am...God!

"To Temp the Gods" the storyline we use to justify Low 2-C He-Man and Skeletor. After Skeletor gains the power of Grayskull, he has the power to destroy universes with but a thought and make the multiverse "tremble".

I have traveled the length of the Multiverse, wreaking havoc...bringing terror wherever the shadow of Skeletors boot fell across the cowering populace. Billions of souls...Countless worlds...Universes beyond counting...All have fallen to my might! Oh but never have I held such raw power in my fist! With this...ahhhhh, with this, I could cause the very Cosmos to be gone with but a thought!

LET THE VERY MULTIVERSE TREMBLE BEFORE ME! HA HA HA. I can fill its power even NOW, coursing throughout my being...filling my form with energies beyond imagining! IT IS...GLORIOUS! This object used for GOOD, used for the ULTIMATE EVIL! Glow, my sword. Feed me this wondrous power!

In addition, the narration itself says Skeletor is twisting reality itself.

Reality twists upon itself and the falcon is there, it's eyes blaze with fire as it spies the sword. Skeletor hears its hunters cry and whirls his grotesque parody of a face turning into a leering obscene smile. What concern is this creature to the possessor of the fabled Power Sword..?

In Masters of the Multiverse #1, Grayskull is described as containing all the energy of the Universe.

But if you do, I'll use the power of Castle Grayskull to do far, far worse. So what shall it be? All knowledge and energy in the universe in the hands of your greatest enemy, the Demon Wizard Skeletor?

Star Seed
Masters of the Multiverse continues this trend by fleshing out on the Star Seed. The Star Seed is made up of the fragments of each big bang across the entire multiverse.

The Starseed. An orb containing the residual energies that created the universe. In turn, those same energies created every universe across the multiverse

This lines up with the quote earlier about the Orb of Horrors and its infinite dimensions.

Skeletor describes the Star Seed as having "infinite, all-consuming power"

Yes! Come to me! Give me power! All-consuming infinite power! Nyahaha

Filmation He-Man, or "Annoyingly Chipper He-Man" shatters the Starseed.


Earlier versions of the Starseed depicted it as being the very creator of all reality, which extends to at least 5-dimensions. Scans below

The Mother Goddess is the source and heart of allc reation. She is the fire from which our universe was born. The last relic sparks of creation now rages in the forge of Grayskull. That is what you are fighting to protect. But can anyone one man truly claim the Goddess' light as his own?

Later in the storyline, it's revealed that Mother Goddess = Starseed.

The source of creation! The goddess herself! The Star Seed! Tonight, I will murder life itself!

And it can create other universes.

In this aspect, the Goddess will destroy the universe of light and usher in a new universe. The horde universe. The age of Horokoth

In case you don't think this is literal, He-Man witnesses this at the end of the universe.





With this power, Hordak can recreate the entire universe.


Also seems to become omnipresent.


Other things

Hordak shakes the universe and damages "eternity".

With each strike of hammer on steel, the universe shakes. Eternity cannot hold. Entropy and terror are loosed upon the world.

But Amelia, they're crossovers they don't count
Not really. Yes, they are "crossovers" in the sense that different He-Man franchises cross-over, but the story explains it in an in-universe way that Keldor is traveling across the multiverse to fight Anti-He-Man from destroying universes. It's not like they crossover with Superman or Batman, it's all kept within Masters of the Multiverse parameters.

The fact that all He-Man stuff takes place in the same multiverse is essentially confirmed here where Skeletor walks across the multiverse, meeting other versions of himself. Also references the He-Man Superman crossover so take that as you may, but this is not integral to the upgrades and is merely a support of it.

...But the multiverse is vast and complex. I ended up reeling from one reality to the next. I saw a thousand different versions of Eternia across Hypertime. Strange iterations, parallel universes...and different multiversal versions of myself in all of them.

He-Man has always been "kinda canon" to DC, since Mattel and DC have have canonical crossover events since the 80s. The most recent one was the surprisingly really nice storyline Injustice vs Masters of the Universe which, by the way, also continues the trend of cosmic Grayskull.

To the deepest recesses of Castle Grayskull. T the nexus of all realities that cast you from one universe onto my world

I know that's now in of itself tier 2, but it shows that Grayskull is consistently a cosmic thing.

in conclusion, tldr


not really but still. these feats come from the most boring of He-Man stories

• Castle Grayskull, Power Swords and the Star Seed are all consistently described as being Low 2-C - 2-A - Low 1-C in power.
  • Low 2-C comes from the constant statements that Eternia/Grayskull/etc can destroy, create, or reshape the entire universe.
  • 2-A comes from the statements near the end of Masters of the Multiverse that the Star Seed contains the fragments that created infinite universes
  • Low 1-C comes from Eternity War that said the Star Seed can recreate all of reality, up until at least Hyper Time, as Skeletor is fully aware of its existence.
• This scales to the incarnations of He-Man, Skeletor, She-Ra, Hordak, etc, of the following continuities at the very least:
  • Filmation
  • Live action
  • New Adventures
  • Original
  • 2002
• And probably scales to:
  • Pre-Crisis, Post-Crisis and New 52 DC He-Man
• Probably does not scale to:
  • Princess of Power
  • Revelations

My opinion on hiw this should scale would be "At least Low 2-C, possibly 2-A to Low 1-C"

Does anyone have any opinions?

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

Bump. Tabbers don't work in forums apparently so sorry for the extra bloat.

 

[Super_Saiyan_God_Julian]

I think these suggestions seem fine. Don't know so much on He-Man so as to make an assesment on the scaling though.

 

[Antvasima]

I am fine with 2-A scaling to the comicbook incarnation of He-Man mainly featured in the story that featured the Starseed, if he matched its full power on his own without enhancements.

What I have a problem with is retroactively scaling such a massive power level to all incarnations of He-Man in cartoons and otherwise, and every single character that ever fought them reasonably well, regardless if their own feats are enormously below this scale. We cannot scale like that, and assume that the writers of He-Man in all types of media wrote him at a 2-A level even 35 years before this unofficial crossover story happened. It would make the profiles extremely unreliable and create a terrible precedent for other verses. We have to find the highest explicit feats of their own to scale from instead,

Also, we cannot scale Masters of the Universe to Low 1-C from DC Comics concepts such as Hypertime. This would also require use to break our Crossovers rules and scale all of the Injustice: Gods Among Us superhero characters to 2-A, as that version of Superman defeated He-Man.

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

I went over this in the actual post. I am not scaling it to every version of He-Man, just ever version that came in contact with the Star Seed, or who had a serious conflict with Anti-He-Man. Which, yes, would include Filmation, Live-Action, and probably original (however, New Adventures and 2002 probably do not scale in retrospect). I am fine with having this as another key on their profiles, however. I am okay with scaling it like this since Grayskull, since the first days of He-Man, has been depicted at this level, so it is not an outlier or out of question for these characters to really be this strong.

Injustice He-Man does not scale to this. I merely used the Injustice scan to show that Grayskull is very consistently, even in random crossovers, portrayed as something on this level (Injustice Superman actually has a 2-A statement in the comic book, but that's irrelevant).

I am also okay with not using Low 1-C for anything but Eternity War He-Man and Skeletor (and the other books in its continuity, of which I have not read as they are dreadfully dull) since that book is explicitly set in the DC Multiverse, so I am fine with everyone else just scaling to 2-A based off the Star Seed statements.

As for the "full power" bit. Filmation He-Man quite literally shatters the seed just by becoming He-Man, and Live-Action and OG He-Man scale to him.

 

[Antvasima]

Extra keys might work, as long as we do not pretend that they were always presented as anywhere near this powerful, but it still feels like crossover scaling between different continuities, which we have avoided for different versions of Superman who briefly interacted for example, so I would much prefer to avoid it, as it will set an extremely bad precedent for other franchises.

I am fine with 2-A scaling for the Starseed, and any characters that matched its power on their own, but am very uneasy with scaling to Low 1-C from DC Comics. It would be like scaling Doctor Who to tier 1-A because it has referenced Marvel Comics as part of its "Omniverse". It is simply not the standards that we use for scaling in this wiki, and we definitely shouldn't make an exception here.

Additional staff input would be appreciated though.

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

Okay. An extra key for all relevant characters should be fine, then. Perhaps we can add a "possibly far higher" to all non-Tier 2 incarnations of He-Man given how grayskull is incredibly consistently poised as a cosmic thing?

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

Bump.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I think this looks good; I do agree with Antvasima on some details, but I do think Ameila's being quite reasonable regarding what scales. I also don't mind the possibly far higher to all non Tier 2 versions.

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

Should I alert other staff members of this so it can be wrapped up?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

That would be a good idea yes.

 

[Elizhaa]

I think this looks good; I do agree with Antvasima on some details, but I do think Ameila's being quite reasonable regarding what scales. I also don't mind the possibly far higher to all non Tier 2 versions.

I largely shared this view. I agree with Antvasima on his Tier 1's counterpoints.

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

Bump.

 

[Antvasima]

It seems like we are leaning towards the 2-A and extra keys, but no Low 1-C, solution then.

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

Yes. Truth be told I didn't think Low 1-C held much water personally, but I felt like it was a possibility worth debating for. I am perfectly okay with settling for 2-A, as I find it more consistent.

That said, I have no idea what to do with speed. I guess we can scale them to Filmations MHS+ feat, Post-Crisis He-Man and Teela have a feat where they were able to move around in the space after the end of the universe, but I do not believe we consider that a speed feat anymore. I know Marvel and Newspaper He-Man both have FTL/MFTL+ feats, but they don't appear in the crossovers so we can't scale them. I guess that'll be a bridge we cross at a later date as I get more research done.

Edit: I find it amusing that Pre-Crisis and Post-Crisis He-Man has both fought Superman, and have feats on his exact level even without the crossover scaling. Pre-Crisis He-Man was destroying universes by accident, and Post-Crisis He-Man scales to Skeletor and Hordak who were sending Shockwaves across the universe.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. We mostly seem to have reached an agreement then, but I do not think that we shoould scale the speeds from different continuities to the regular values of different characters via the crossover. It is better to leave that statistic as "Unknown" if we have nothing else to base it on.

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

I meant scaling the speed i the crossover event key, not for their own appearances. I If I could have my admin privileges back, I can go ahead and edit their articles, but they are currently in desperate need to be split since they're both composited (I am working on splitting them but it'll take some time. Lots of comics to read and episodes to watch).

Or just make them into a blog page as to not conflict with the forum move too much. I don't really know the details, but I heard that was an issue with some pages.

 

[Antvasima]

1) Okay. I suppose that might work then, but more staff input regarding the speed scaling would be appreciated.

2) Well, you were inactive for quite a long while, among other issues, so I am very uncertain about admin privileges, but I can obviously give you editing rights at least. We could talk about it via private messages if you wish though.

 

[Antvasima]

I have given you editing rights.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I personally think the speed scaling is consistent; I thought I recall He-Man already being Massively FTL+ a long time ago, but possibly misremember.

And, as someone who was very shocked at the situation and also feel how OOC it was. I personally support a promotion, but given the situation it is strongly preferable to be talked about via PMs. But I definitely agree editing rights are easy to give.

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

He-Man and Skeletor's pages are locked in general. Should I ask a staff member to unlock them, or should I just make these changes as a blog?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I could unlock them if needed.

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

@DarkDragon. Sorry, I didn't see your post until now. I'm not trying to make a scene with the request for that, so I apologize if it came off like that, I will send Ant a proper PM about it shortly. As for the speed, MFTL+ is only valid for Pre-Crisis DC He-Man, which is not the same He-Man as the others. Off the top of my head, the speed feats I know so far are:

• Post-Crisis DC: No clue, some decent speed feats involving robots in space but I never calculated them.
• Image: No clue.
• New Adventures: No clue.
• Original: MHS, scales to a gem throw at insane speeds.
• Filmation: MHS+, scales to the fact that he reacted to his moon push.
• Marvel/Newspaper: Probably FTL to MFTL+, scales to aliens who flew across a large portion of space but I forgot the specifics.
• Pre-Crisis DC: MFTL+, scales to a dude who zipped across the universe in minutes.

And the unlocking would be most appreciated.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I have already unlocked them, and don't worry. I know you didn't really mean it quite like that. In fact, I am glad to see you back as well as excited.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. We need some calculations for the speed levels though.

We should preferably keep further discussion about any promotions in private, yes, given that it is a controversial subject.

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

Profiles edited, and I have sent you a PM @Ant.

Edit: As for speeds. Filmation He-Man's feat has been calced, Original's actually comes from a stated speed, so no calculation there. Pre-Crisis He-Man, Marvel and Newspaper He-Man's speed will be added to my docket.

 

[Antvasima]

It seems like Skeletor and He-Ma are composite pages. That is not allowed anymore, and in addition they are "At least Low 1-C" by scaling from DC Comics, which is against our crossover rules.

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

It's complicated.

They are composited, but I am working on making articles for individual incarnations and once those are made, I am okay with deleting the articles as is. I want them to stay until I get those done, however.

As for the Low 1-C feat, we're not really scaling it to DC Hypertime, moreso we're assuming Hypertime in this context is 5-D, since Skeletr refers to it as being above typical space-time.

 

[Antvasima]

1) Okay. That seems fine with me then.

2) That makes sense as well, as long as it is better clarified in the page, although our standards have turned stricter for tier 1 now: Tiering System Explanation Page