Halo: Master Chief and Spartans' revisions and downgrades

[VersusJunkie54]

I guess I'm making this thread because I have unfinished business with Halo on this site, so I'll get right to the point for the grand total of five users who care about Halo here. Spartans, Elites, Brutes, and those who scale to them should be downgraded to 9-B - 9-B+, or maybe baseline 9-A in select cases. There are likely many uncalculated feats, especially with the newer wave of novels but that's beyond this discussion. It's been a long time since I've participated in a discussion here, so bear with me if this post seems a touch messy.

There's also the matter of new abilities shown by Spartans, particularly in Gen3 but that is secondary to the downgrades.

I will be focusing on Master Chief for this thread, as these changes will be applicable to everyone else who scales to and from Spartans.

Currently, Spartans' physical stats scale to this calc and to some now defunct, and debunked calculations as DarkDragonMedeus has demonstrated. Basically what I am saying is that the Boulder feat is a High-End Outlier. Spartans have now been consistently shown otherwise to have physical AP, and durability feats in the single to double digit megajoules. Weapons calced to be in the 30+ range, and especially the 100 or higher megajoules have been shown and implied to be major threats to Spartans. The boulder feat is 15-20 times higher than any other Spartan feat, so what is that if not an outlier? Especially as this is so far the only 9-A feat for Spartans. This is more damming when we take statements about the MkV having 15 megajoules of shield protection, Wall Level+. It is also remarkably consistent with some of @DarkDragonMedeus calcs that were buried.

Edit: The 15 Megajoule statement comes from a wiki that has no citations, so this cannot be used.

There's a statement in First Strike where a Spartan receives an upgrade that "doubles" the protection, and we can reasonably assume those upgrades carried over to the later armors. So Spartans with energy shields would have 9-A durability at 30 megajoules in later armors, but only barely. It has been awhile, but I will try to track that statement down if asked.

As for speed, I do not see anything in need of total revision, Supersonic-Supersonic+ has remained consistent in Spartans and their comparables. In fact, a forgotten calc here shows a legit Supersonic+ feat. So it may actually be a bit of an upgrade for Gen 2 & Gen 3 Spartans, and consistent with the armors being an upgrade.

As for lifting strength, I think everything is solid as is, but as I'll point out below, lifting strength feats in newer armors do not scale to older ones.

So how should the profiles of Spartans like Master Chief be rated? What should the new ratings be?

There is a clear difference between the performance of Spartans in MkIV, MkV Mjolnir, and the MkVI and so on.

The MkIV doesn't even have energy shields, nor can it support an AI, and that is a suit that Master Chief wore for most of his career. The MkV has shields, but they are shown, and stated to be inferior to the MkVI and on such as recharging slower, and providing less protection. The statements about Gen 2 Mjolnir being similar to Gen 1 clearly refers to the MkVI's capabilities, it wouldn't make sense for Spartan IV's to be compared to armor systems one or two iterations out of date, so any feats from the MkVI Gen 1 Mjolnir onwards do not scale to Master Chief or Spartans in the MkIV and MkV.

Good feats to scale the older suits to would be this 5 megajoule calc, and the Scorpion Missile feat at 1-3 megajoules which occured when Chief was in the MkV. It is consistent with what that iteration of Mjolnir shows.

As for MkVI/Gen 2 Mjolnir, they should scale to the durability of the Promethean Knights. This is because Spartans are capable of damaging them with their strikes, including tearing off their blade arm. This would be at 15 megajoules, Wall Level+. Consistent with upgraded armor, and the Spartans being able to damage and destroy a Wraith or Scorpion with multiple strikes. It's also consistent with assassination animations that show that Spartans can punch out the Warden Eternal's joints, and grapple with him.

So here is my proposal.

Master Chief should be split into two profiles. One profile would show John during the Human-Covenant War with the keys Unarmored | MkIV | MkV | MkVI

And Master Chief during the reclaimer Saga with Unarmored | Gen 2 Mjolnir | Gen 3 Mjolnir

The reasoning for this is that it will make it easier to separate Master Chief's various feats, weapons, abilities, etc exclusive to one or another part of his career. Same for other Spartans.

So the revised profiles' attack potency/durability may roughly look like this. Note that John without Mjolnir should go unchanged unless there are new feats of Spartans out of armor that need to be addressed.

Master Chief, Human-Covenant War

Attack Potency: Wall Level physically (should not be too much weaker than his MkV self), Street Level up to Building Level with Weapons | Wall Level physically (comparable to other Spartans, can fight Elites and Brutes capable of damaging Mjolnir with their strikes), Street Level, up to Building Level with weapons | Wall Level+ (His new suit is stronger than before, and has a higher strength multiplier. His strength is later compared to Spartan IV's who can damage, and tear limbs off of Promethean Knights with their strikes. Can grapple with Hunters and assassinate them. Can do significant damage to Wraith, and Scorpion tanks after multiple punches), Street Level, up to Building Level with Weapons)

Durability: Wall Level (Should be comparable to his MkV armor, can survive strikes from physically similar opponents) | Wall Level (Comparable to Fred and other Spartans who survived a terminal velocity fall), Wall Level+ With energy shields (Stated to have 15 megajoules of protection), up to Small Building Level with Overshield (Can get a temporary powerup that multiplies his shields by 3) | Wall Level+ (Comparable to the Spartan IV's whose performance is compared to Master Chief's) Small Building Level with Energy Shields (The MkVI has shields twice as powerful as its predecessor), higher with Overshields and deployable cover (Can gain a temporary powerup that multiplies his shields by 3),at least Multi-City Block level with Invincibility (Renders him virtuously impervious to all UNSC and Covenant infantry weapons, this includes Spartan Lasers, Wraith Mortars, and Scarab beam), at least Small City level with Bubble Shield (Repels all projectiles and nearly all explosions outside the bubble shield. Withstood a several Megaton Nuclear explosion)

Master Chief: Reclaimer Saga

Attack Potency: Wall Level+ (Can damage, and tear the arms off of Promethean Knights, overpowered and defeated Spartan Locke), Street Level to Building Level+ with Weapons, Multi-City Block level with the Incineration Cannon | At Least Wall Level+ (The Gen 3 Mjolnir is an upgrade from the Gen 2. Briefly traded blows with, and staggered Atriox who stomped Spartan Team Red, defeated an infamous "Spartan Killer"), Street Level to Building Level+ with Weapons, up to Multi-City-Block Level with the Incineration Cannon (Should still be able to get access to Promethean Weapons)

Durability: Wall Level+ (Comparable to the Spartan IV's, took multiple physical strikes from Spartan Locke), Small Building Level with Energy Shields, higher with Overshield, At least Multi-City-Block Level with the Hardlight Shield (Can bounce shots from the Incineration cannon) | At least Wall Level+ (Easily tanked a full power swing from Atriox's gravity hammer to the shoulder, and endured multiple full power hits and kept fighting, his armor took no visible damage aside from dislodging his AI chip), Small Building Level with Energy Shields (Should be stronger than his Gen 2 suit), higher with Overshields and Drop Shields.

Things worth noting.

In Halo 2, Master Chief crashes into In Amber Clad at high speeds. He was moving fast enough to escape the destruction of a Covenant carrier in a matter of seconds. That could be another supporting single to double digit megajoule feat.

A handheld Sentinel Beam-like weapon in Halo Infinite can ionize brutes armor and all, and Mjolnir shields can tank this narrow beam, so that's worth considering.

I already mentioned that there are other feats in Halo that are yet to be uncovered, or calced. For one, Master Chief tanking Fuel Rod cannons and Phantom Cannons should be calculated using the same method that @DarkDragonMedeus used in their blogs so that can be measured accurately, and Spartans can survive them both in gameplay, and lore. The Chief in MkVI in particular seemed to tank fuel rod cannons to his bare armor.

There are some new feats in novels written by Troy Denning. One that comes to mind was done in the MkIV, where John has 30 seconds to run away from a 1 megaton nuke, on an airless world. That's probably only going to be in the single digit megajoules being overly optimistic, but it's worth addressing.

In Shadows of Reach. John has a number of feats in his Gen 3 suit. One he punches a Banshee in a Kamikaze dive so hard, its velocity is canceled, and is sent skittering across Reach. If calced, it's probably in the single digit megajoules. He also holds up a boulder that is compared to a Warthog in size, though he needs assistance to get it over his shoulders, and he only holds it in place. Consistent with suit upgrades though. I hate doing this, but this is a Reddit thread hosting some of those feats.

Supposedly Locke Spartan charged through a statue. I have no idea where this feat can be found, but supposedly that happened. If found and calced, it could be a legit 9-B+ or low 9-A feat but that's speculative.. He also was either stated, or shown to flip over a Wraith with a ground pound. Would make for good supporting feats to establish consistency though.

So I don't think I've missed anything critical, but for the few who do care to participate, please share what needs to be included.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Seems reasonable, but I will inform DarkDragon as he was involved in some revisions of Halo

 

[VersusJunkie54]

Seems reasonable, but I will inform DarkDragon as he was involved in some revisions of Halo

I already pinged them, so they should come shortly.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

I already pinged them, so they should come shortly.

The Ping seems to reserved for staff only IIRC so it wouldn’t work I think. Have to inform them via message wall or via other means unfortunately

 

[VersusJunkie54]

The Ping seems to reserved for staff only IIRC so it wouldn’t work I think. Have to inform them via message wall or via other means unfortunately

Really now? Well I have been away from this site for a long time, so I'm sure a lot has changed. Once DDM comes in to contribute, this discussion can be underway.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Yep, a lot of stuff has changed including needing references on profiles as well.

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

What's the source for the 15 megajoule shield statement? Is from one of the games, guidebook, encyclopedia, novel, etc?

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

I can only imagine how cracked Chief is gonna be for 9-B with all the equipment he has access to all at once in Infinite.

 

[VersusJunkie54]

What's the source for the 15 megajoule shield statement? Is from one of the games, guidebook, encyclopedia, novel, etc?

That's actually a great question. It may have come from any one of those, but I cannot seem to find it? I will keep trying though.

If it doesn't exist, then this complicates scaling for shielding a bit, especially when it comes to the MkV.

 

[Qawsedf234]

What's the source for the 15 megajoule shield statement? Is from one of the games, guidebook, encyclopedia, novel, etc?

The only source I can find is the Fandom wiki and the person who added it did so without a source and has only made two edits in the history of that wiki 11 years ago.

So I think this is a case of "Valdor defeated Horus in a duel" where some guy edited the wiki and no one noticed for years.

 

[VersusJunkie54]

The only source I can find is the Fandom wiki and the person who added it did so without a source and has only made two edits in the history of that wiki 11 years ago.

So I think this is a case of "Valdor defeated Horus in a duel" where some guy edited the wiki and no one noticed for years.

You are correct, I just realized that. Otherwise, MkV energy shields may be able to be scaled from Kig-Yar shields, as it is stated that the MkV is actually an improvement upon that system. Either finding a good baseline to scale that to, or some other feat for MkV shields will be needed.

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

Reactive metal liquid crystal layer: Sandwiched between the external armor and the internal padding is a layer of piezoelectric material that deforms along a preferred axis when exposed to an electric charge. This layer acts as synthetic muscle, allowing the Spartan access to approximately five times their unarmored strength when using the Mark VI due to new optimization of the crystalline geometries.

~ Halo: The Essential Visual Guide, page 157

~ Halo Encyclopedia: The Definitive Guide to the Halo Universe, page 91

The liquid crystal layer increases the strength of the wearer by a factor of five in addition to amplifying the user's reaction time by the same factor.

~ Halo Encyclopedia (2009 edition), unknown page

If these statements are proven true, would this be applicable to a Unarmoured Spartan's Lifting Strength, Striking Strength, and Reaction Speed?

 

[VersusJunkie54]

Reactive metal liquid crystal layer: Sandwiched between the external armor and the internal padding is a layer of piezoelectric material that deforms along a preferred axis when exposed to an electric charge. This layer acts as synthetic muscle, allowing the Spartan access to approximately five times their unarmored strength when using the Mark VI due to new optimization of the crystalline geometries.

~ Halo: The Essential Visual Guide, page 157

~ Halo Encyclopedia: The Definitive Guide to the Halo Universe, page 91

The liquid crystal layer increases the strength of the wearer by a factor of five in addition to amplifying the user's reaction time by the same factor.

~ Halo Encyclopedia (2009 edition), unknown page

If these statements are proven true, would this be applicable to a Unarmoured Spartan's Lifting Strength, Striking Strength, and Reaction Speed?

I would cite this as further evidence of the difference between MkIV/MkV and MkVI onwards armor as the older ones are stated to only have a X2 multiplier, but I am uncomfortable trying to backscale unarmoured Spartans from this. I am pretty sure the wiki has rules against scaling like you suggest.

 

[Qawsedf234]

I am pretty sure the wiki has rules against scaling like you suggest.

It wouldn't for this. Dragon Ball for example takes heavy usage of multiplier down and upscaling with bigger numbers. What would harm it would be feat inconsistency, but if they lack anti-feats then nothing stops the multiplier from being used backwards.

 

[VersusJunkie54]

It wouldn't for this. Dragon Ball for example takes heavy usage of multiplier down and upscaling with bigger numbers. What would harm it would be feat inconsistency, but if they lack anti-feats then nothing stops the multiplier from being used backwards.

Fair enough. But we should wait to hear what DDM has to say on this matter.

 

[Hellbeast]

The statue feat seems like a reference to the Halo 5 trailers where Locke just starts breaking shit in Sunaion. I do think there's some feats that can help us out though, Chief in 4 tanks a Slipspace rupture that makes a huge crater. There's also gameplay feats of Osiris and Blue Team shattering stone walls (these are needed to progress and represented in cutscenes and trailers so it's seemingly intended as something Spartans can do in-universe) but I'm unsure if we'd use them

 

[VersusJunkie54]

The statue feat seems like a reference to the Halo 5 trailers where Locke just starts breaking shit in Sunaion. I do think there's some feats that can help us out though, Chief in 4 tanks a Slipspace rupture that makes a huge crater. There's also gameplay feats of Osiris and Blue Team shattering stone walls (these are needed to progress and represented in cutscenes and trailers so it's seemingly intended as something Spartans can do in-universe) but I'm unsure if we'd use them

Is there any proof that Master Chief was in the crater epicenter? And if the statue feat came from a trailer, I'm fairly certain it cannot be used.

 

[Hellbeast]

Is there any proof that Master Chief was in the crater epicenter? And if the statue feat came from a trailer, I'm fairly certain it cannot be used.

He wakes up in the crater so I'd assume so yeah

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Oh man, there are a lot of things indeed overdue for revisions and this is mostly good. I originally wanted to make a general discussion for weapon/vehicle scaling and possibly a proposal for a weapon/vehicle scaling rule page before tackling this, but I didn't mind having a good start. But to tackle some points.

As for speed, I do not see anything in need of total revision, Supersonic-Supersonic+ has remained consistent in Spartans and their comparables. In fact, a forgotten calc here shows a legit Supersonic+ feat. So it may actually be a bit of an upgrade for Gen 2 & Gen 3 Spartans, and consistent with the armors being an upgrade.

I actually debunked some flaws with that calculation a long time ago. First of all, the number one gripe with the feat is the speed of the Covenant Carbine rounds. The official speed is only 700 m/s, which is a far cry from Hypersonic. That would cut the final result in half. Also, the "Supersonic" result from the feat would only be perception at best, not reaction speed. It has been stressed many times that perception and speed are two widely different things; what is just seeing rather than reacting or moving in relation to it. The actual feat reaction wise was something that really only required below average human level to react. Other concerns were also made that it might be a different variant of the Covenant Carbine, but the specific comic took place during Human Covenant War, which means it would just be the regular Carbine. And even if it was Reclaimer Trilogy version, 700 m/s is still lines up with how 600m would be the firing distance and the power per bullet being more like that of the Assault Rifle rather than a sniper rifle. Also, the 490m distance might be a lowball, since it was just using size of the ship; which the shooter and target were on opposite ends of. Which means the distance could be bigger rendering the feat less usable. Moreover, there's the fact that 700 m/s refers to the initial velocity of a bullet; the rounds would be considerably slower by quite a bit once it soured for 490 meters.

As for other speed feats, the only feats I can think of that would be Supersonic+ would be from Linda. In a training session she had with Kelly, she was shown where Kelly was struggling to land a hit on her even with an MA5 series Assault Rifle; which range from like 800-900 m/s muzzle velocities. But I don't think we could really scale that to anyone other than her and maybe ones such as Didact. But yeah, anything behind Supersonic+ perception, let alone combat speed would be grossly inconsistent given how Linda using the SRS series Sniper Rifles is commonly portrayed as a trump card. In the same scene, she tagged Kelly twice with it. And she is most famous for the time she sniped two Elites riding Ghosts that was described as "It was so quick, John couldn't even tell which one was shot first."

As for other stuff, I can see breaking up his page into two profiles to avoid cluttering on the profile with some repeated variables and listing the different durability ratings per power ups. I agree with most of the AP/durability downgrades but I should also mention other details. Most feats that exceed tier 9 are done via weapons that are pretty much done via pure heat and that is especially all the Forerunner/Promethean weapons making use of anti-matter particles. This is another thing commonly brought up is that Joules of thermal energy =/= Joules of overpressure. The opposite is true where X Joules of overpressure translates to similar or greater levels of thermal energy being input. But it's not like splashing a bucket of warm water translates to 9-B levels of force. So that's another thing to take into account before looking at the results of the Promethean weapons or Covenant Weapons. Sure some Covenant weapons have been known to generate some explosions that could get good 9-B or maybe even 9-A results in Fuel Rod Cannon's case, but just not quite as good as the capacity of the energy yields from vaporization feats. Which is another reason for why I think it's often important for weapons to just be rated from their own calculations given how inconsistent destruction methods of the energy yields can be.

The one thing I actually could see upgrades for was lifting strength. I remember the 4 Spartans working together to move the 120-ton Stone monolith would be a Class 25 feat for them individually. And yeah, I personally do not entirely agree with using exact multipliers. Dragon Ball's Kaioken transformations actually are not only super consistent, but Kaioken outright states multiplying power, speed, energy output ect. Models being "Twice as strong" is a little off-putting and even some characters wearing Mark IV have demonstrated superior strength feats than people wearing Mark VI and beyond. There are quite a few inconsistencies; that's another big part of something I wanted to remove a long time ago is an assumption that all Spartans being considered equal. While most Spartan-II's are indeed consistently the strongest generation and are of similar weight class to each other. Some people such as Samuel, Kurt, and William are in classes of there own where other Spartans are actually considered underwhelming compared to him. And Spartan-IV's are weaker than Spartan-III's who are in turn a lot weaker than Spartan-II's on average. Though they were lucky to have better suits to make the gaps unnoticed. But even then, despite Master Chief both being a Spartan-II and getting access to Gen 2 and later Gen 3, he's never shown remarkable strength compared to those three above I mentioned.

But as I said, the thread so far looks like a pretty good step in the right direction. It's also good to see you back VersusJunkie, been so long.

 

[Hellbeast]

Honestly I disagree with the 700 m/s thing, it's from Halo 3 in 2007 and so predates all the Hypersonic statements. That and the fact that the statement comes from Joe Staten. the writer for the original trilogy, makes me consider those statements weightier then the previous. Also, this thread has a bunch of feats for the Covie weapons which could be good supporting feats

 

[VersusJunkie54]

He wakes up in the crater so I'd assume so yeah

That may be worth a calculation then.

I actually debunked some flaws with that calculation a long time ago. First of all, the number one gripe with the feat is the speed of the Covenant Carbine rounds. The official speed is only 700 m/s,

I think you may be a touch confused, the 700 m/s calc comes from reacting to a Beam Rifle from 50 meters or so. The carbine feat was the second part of the blog. I don't recall seeing any counterpoint of yours about the beam rifle feat, but maybe I missed something.

Most feats that exceed tier 9 are done via weapons that are pretty much done via pure heat and that is especially all the Forerunner/Promethean weapons making use of anti-matter particles. This is another thing commonly brought up is that Joules of thermal energy =/= Joules of overpressure......

I don't have any arguments for this entire point of yours. Honestly the way you calced all of that should be standard for all verses on this Wiki when it comes to heat based attacks. A lot of verses would be slapped with harsh downgrades though.

The reasoning for some of the Promethean Weaponry is somewhat off putting to me though. They don't really function the way Covenant weapons do. The little pellets the fire can ionize entire Spartans, so you have to ask where does all of that energy go? Does it just vanish? It doesn't splash and expand like Covenant weaponry does, so I'm a bit iffy on measuring Promethean Weapons this way.

The one thing I actually could see upgrades for was lifting strength. I remember the 4 Spartans working together to move the 120-ton Stone monolith would be a Class 25 feat for them individually

I have always wondered about this feat, but have had no idea how to quantify it. It may even be consistent with Master Chief's Shadows of Reach lifting feat where he manages to hold up a large chunk of granite. Some on others forums were quick to jump on it being a 100 toner feat, but that's taking it at face value. I'll find the actual part of the book it happens, but Master Chief holds a chunk of granite on his shoulders, and it is described as approaching his limit. Class 25 sounds legit though.

And Spartan-IV's are weaker than Spartan-III's who are in turn a lot weaker than Spartan-II's on average.

I'm fairly certain this is incorrect. Spartan-III's are weaker than the II's out of armor, and their SPI armor pales compared to Mjolnir. But IV's and III's in Mjolnir are considered to be on the same level physically as the II's in Mjolnir, otherwise Locke would have lost that (awful) fight against Chief instantly.

As for other speed feats, the only feats I can think of that would be Supersonic+ would be from Linda. In a training session she had with Kelly, she was shown where Kelly was struggling to land a hit on her even with an MA5 series Assault Rifle; which range from like 800-900 m/s muzzle velocities. But I don't think we could really scale that to anyone other than her and maybe ones such as Didact. But yeah, anything behind Supersonic+ perception, let alone combat speed would be grossly inconsistent given how Linda using the SRS series Sniper Rifles is commonly portrayed as a trump card. In the same scene, she tagged Kelly twice with it. And she is most famous for the time she sniped two Elites riding Ghosts that was described as "It was so quick, John couldn't even tell which one was shot first."

Eh, it would be weird to say John isn't comparable at all. Slower sure, but not a blitzing difference.

Some people such as Samuel, Kurt, and William are in classes of there own

Sam is actually featless as far as I am aware, he was the very first Spartan to die in actual combat rather than failed augmentation. All we have is that he is the "strongest". But by how much is unquantifiable. The Spartans do vary a bit in their capabilities though, but are otherwise comparable unless a feat blatantly demonstrates otherwise. As for Kurt and William, I haven't read Ghosts of Onyx in years so I cannot comment on them.

And yeah, I personally do not entirely agree with using exact multipliers.

Neither am I. The only one that I think can be used is hinted in First Strike where upgrades for Mjolnir are being field tested, and one Spartan gets an upgrade that doubles their shield strength. It's heavily implied that these upgrades are supposed to be implemented into the MkVI

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

You are correct, I just realized that. Otherwise, MkV energy shields may be able to be scaled from Kig-Yar shields, as it is stated that the MkV is actually an improvement upon that system. Either finding a good baseline to scale that to, or some other feat for MkV shields will be needed.

Could another option be scaling MJOLNIR energy shields above Covenant Plasma Pistols and Rifles' power output of "100~150 Kv@2~3 dA in its standard firing mode. Over-charge power output is as high as 1.5 Mv @ 2~3 dA" as a baseline?

 

[VersusJunkie54]

Could another option be scaling MJOLNIR energy shields above Covenant Plasma Pistols and Rifles' power output of "100~150 Kv@2~3 dA in its standard firing mode. Over-charge power output is as high as 1.5 Mv @ 2~3 dA" as a baseline?

That would be way way low in Wall Level, and it wouldn't make sense for the energy shields durability to be tens of times lower than the actual Armor's durability, especially as it's implied the Energy Shields are supposed to protect against attacks that could be lethal to the armor directly.

This from Halo The Flood may be better. John tanks a Hunter's plasma mortar without his shields breaking, then he survives a direct hit while his shields are on recharge. There are others as well that could be scaled from.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Honestly I disagree with the 700 m/s thing, it's from Halo 3 in 2007 and so predates all the Hypersonic statements. That and the fact that the statement comes from Joe Staten. the writer for the original trilogy, makes me consider those statements weightier then the previous. Also, this thread has a bunch of feats for the Covie weapons which could be good supporting feats

The difference is that ones that are meant to give us exact numbers are more reliable than flowery adjactives. Also him being one of the main story writers doesn't really make him word of God. Especially if he considers other writers to be more scientifically knowledgeable. We reject the "Near light speed" statements about Beam Rifle for similar reasons. It also doesn't change the fact that the firing range and the power of the shot are both significantly slower than the Sniper Rifle, which wouldn't be realistic if it was faster.

I think you may be a touch confused, the 700 m/s calc comes from reacting to a Beam Rifle from 50 meters or so. The carbine feat was the second part of the blog. I don't recall seeing any counterpoint of yours about the beam rifle feat, but maybe I missed something.

I was commenting on the Prelate reacting to two Covenant Carbines.

As for the other feat while the Beam Rifle was from 50 meters away, the 10 meters was just referring to the "Barely half a second and John was already 10 meters away." I'm unsure if that's referring to he was exactly 10 meters away exactly when the Beam Rifle was fired as opposed to moving 10 meters on the X-axis exactly when the Beam Rifle was fired from 50 meters away on the Y-Axis John could have noticed it and started running to shield Palmer slightly before the Jackal pulled the trigger. So I'm unsure if the calculation is exactly usable. Regular Supersonic just still seems more consistent IMO.

Sam is actually featless as far as I am aware, he was the very first Spartan to die in actual combat rather than failed augmentation. All we have is that he is the "strongest". But by how much is unquantifiable. The Spartans do vary a bit in their capabilities though, but are otherwise comparable unless a feat blatantly demonstrates otherwise. As for Kurt and William, I haven't read Ghosts of Onyx in years so I cannot comment on them.

I remember talking about it with Soldier Blue a couple years back; forgot if it was Kurt or Williams but he mentioned both their names. Forgot which one did which feat, but one of them was shown to match the strength of a Mjolnir wearer without actually wearing Mjolnir. And the other ripped a Mgalekgolo in half with just his bare hands, though he was also got deep fried by a Fuel Rod shortly afterwards. Samuel may not have any feats, but statements. But he was the one who had the best strength score record in the Spartan Training program, but fair enough.

Cal was also able to repel a Gravity Hammer from a Brute Chieftain using just one hand. A feat crazy even for Spartan-II standards. John even with Gen 3 Mjolnir was literally curb stomped by Atriox and described him as "Weak." And to be fair, Atriox is a foe considered crazy strong even for Brute Chieftain standards, so it's possibly he might be stronger than Hunters (I'd avoid assuming he's stronger than Fal though). But at the same time, there are some notable gaps that just because they have the same rank, species, or part of the same generation doesn't exactly mean everyone is equal.

I'm fairly certain this is incorrect. Spartan-III's are weaker than the II's out of armor, and their SPI armor pales compared to Mjolnir. But IV's and III's are considered to be on the same level physically as the II's in Mjolnir, otherwise Locke would have lost that (awful) fight against Chief instantly.

Fair enough, I wasn't 100% certain myself and was again going off what Soldier Blue spoke in conversations. But I agree Locke was considered almost as strong as John.

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

That would be way way low in Wall Level, and it wouldn't make sense for the energy shields durability to be tens of times lower than the actual Armor's durability, especially as it's implied the Energy Shields are supposed to protect against attacks that could be lethal to the armor directly.

IIRC wasn't Sam's Mark IV armor's titanium plate and Undersuit breached by a Plasma bolt from a Plasma Pistol?

While John's Mark VI armor's titanium plate was able to standup against Guilty Spark's energy beam.

So that would be a vast improvement on the MJOLNIR platform's armor plating at least between the Mark IV and Mark VI armors correct?

 

[VersusJunkie54]

I remember talking about it with Soldier Blue a couple years back; forgot if it was Kurt or Williams but he mentioned both their names. Forgot which one did which feat, but one of them was shown to match the strength of a Mjolnir wearer without actually wearing Mjolnir. And the other ripped a Mgalekgolo in half with just his bare hands, though he was also got deep fried by a Fuel Rod shortly afterwards.

This is definitely an outlier if this happened, and it can be safely ignored. The only Human character in the verse who is Mjolnir level without Armor is some woman named Isla who was part of the first class of Spartan IV's. She was the only survivor, went crazy, and beat up Sarah Palmer in armor.

Cal was also able to repel a Gravity Hammer from a Brute Chieftain using just one hand. A feat crazy even for Spartan-II standards. John even with Gen 3 Mjolnir was literally curb stomped by Atriox and described him as "Weak." And to be fair, Atriox is a foe considered crazy strong even for Brute Chieftain standards, so it's possibly he might be stronger than Hunters (I'd avoid assuming he's stronger than Fal though). But at the same time, there are some notable gaps that just because they have the same rank, species, or part of the same generation doesn't exactly mean everyone is equal.

Have I ever mentioned how fed up I am with Halo's inconsistency? The only verses worse off in this regard are 40k, Star Wars, and The Elder Scrolls. Spartans get flattened by Gravity Hammers according to one writer, and according to others they no sell them.

Back on topic, Atriox is a monster. He destroyed Spartan Team Red with zero difficulty, and I think he's been shown somewhere one-shotting a Brute Chieftain. Atriox is in a league of his own, and John arguably did better against Atriox than Red Team did. John straight up tanks the first gravity hammer blow, and takes multiple more, gets up to continue fighting, and even staggers Atriox. The only damage his armor sustaining being his AI chip dislodging. When John is found, he is able to get back into action with no trouble.

John was also at a massive disadvantage by being taken by surprise, and without any heavy weapons. If he knew what he was fighting, and had adequate weapons, a fight between him and Atriox would be much closer, but I digress.

I was commenting on the Prelate reacting to two Covenant Carbines.

As for the other feat while the Beam Rifle was from 50 meters away, the 10 meters was just referring to the "Barely half a second and John was already 10 meters away." I'm unsure if that's referring to he was exactly 10 meters away exactly when the Beam Rifle was fired as opposed to moving 10 meters on the X-axis exactly when the Beam Rifle was fired from 50 meters away on the Y-Axis John could have noticed it and started running to shield Palmer slightly before the Jackal pulled the trigger. So I'm unsure if the calculation is exactly usable. Regular Supersonic just still seems more consistent IMO.

I am aware, I just was surprised that you didn't bring up the Beam Rifle calc. If you have doubts, it may be worth a re-calc.

This is another possibly supersonic feat from Forerunner Armigers, and another from an Elite Zealot. And another from a comic, but potentially outlierish depending on if it is calcable, and not just an aim dodge.

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

and John arguably did better against Atriox than Red Team did.

TBF, Red Team were in Mark IV MJOLNIR and using old weaponry when they fought Atriox. They might have faired better if the had the same equipment as present Spartans

 

[Hellbeast]

The difference is that ones that are meant to give us exact numbers are more reliable than flowery adjactives. Also him being one of the main story writers doesn't really make him word of God. Especially if he considers other writers to be more scientifically knowledgeable. We reject the "Near light speed" statements about Beam Rifle for similar reasons. It also doesn't change the fact that the firing range and the power of the shot are both significantly slower than the Sniper Rifle, which wouldn't be realistic if it was faster

What makes the hypersonic mention flowery language? We’re given no indication of such and we’ve seen official numbers put other covenant weapons in the Hypersonic range (the Beam Rifle is Mach 10).

Considering the Carbine is a middle ground between the Plasma and Beam Rifles it does add up (I’m also pretty sure it’s stated elsewhere but I need to check that). Joe isn’t WOG necessarily but he is an originator of the setting and helped establish the fundamental narrative so I’d put more stock in him then a game manual from 2007

Especially when this source is from 2015 iirc and we tend to prioritise newer media over the older.

 

[Hellbeast]

TBF, Red Team were in Mark IV MJOLNIR and using old weaponry when they fought Atriox. They might have faired better if the had the same equipment as present Spartans

Plus he had the jump on them, considering his past as a Bloodstar that’s a potent edge.

I would note though that Atriox just consistently ***** on Spartans as per Infinite and the Spartan Field Manual

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

I would note though that Atriox just consistently ***** on Spartans as per Infinite and the Spartan Field Manual

Do you Atriox would have been able to crush parts of Chief's latest MJOLNIR with his Power Fist or is it something he can mostly do with older generation MJOLNIR?

 

[Hellbeast]

Do you Atriox would have been able to crush parts of Chief's latest MJOLNIR with his Power Fist or is it something he can mostly do with older generation MJOLNIR?

I don’t think he can crush them no but wve not seen him in that position

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

What makes the hypersonic mention flowery language? We’re given no indication of such and we’ve seen official numbers put other covenant weapons in the Hypersonic range (the Beam Rifle is Mach 10).

Considering the Carbine is a middle ground between the Plasma and Beam Rifles it does add up (I’m also pretty sure it’s stated elsewhere but I need to check that). Joe isn’t WOG necessarily but he is an originator of the setting and helped establish the fundamental narrative so I’d put more stock in him then a game manual from 2007

Especially when this source is from 2015 iirc and we tend to prioritise newer media over the older.

Beam Rifle is like the Only Hypersonic infantry gun and it is Mach 10.75 to be specific, but it is consistently a trump card speed/range wise. Also, plenty of writers often forget the difference between Supersonic and Hypersonic; trust me, I've seen writers call Mach 2 Hypersonic and call lightning bolts only Supersonic before.

Yes, most Covenant weapons are indeed Subsonic which is made consistent with the Covenant Carbine's description and books even having the "Meters per Second" statements consistent with. But Covenant Carbine has no real Hypersonic feats, and the speed lines up with other descriptions. But we also need to compared it to various UNSC weapons; it is clearly much closer to the firing range, velocity, and power per hit as the MA5 Assault Rifle series and not even close to reaching SRS Sniper Rifle series of those. And these aren't just Halo 3 era stuff, various Halo 4 to Halo 5 versions of various UNSC weapons also repeat similar muzzle velocity ratings. Bungie has always been much smarter when it comes to facts about fire arm/ballistic physics compared to 343 Industries. Though when it comes to the parameters/dimensions to calculate the weight of various tanks, or ships, or suits of armor is the opposite is apparently true.

If it was truly Hypersonic, it could not be locked to 600m being the effective firing range. And I'm positive they'd be a lot more deadly than what is consistently portrayed. Because even in the novels, Carbines are portrayed as far weaker compared to things like UNSC Sniper Rifles or Needlers. If it was truly Hypersonic, its firing range would have to be more than quadruple what it normally does + combining the fact that the range/KE would be in Sniper Round territory while maintaining the rapid fire capability of an Assault Rifle should be combo considered too OP.

I am aware, I just was surprised that you didn't bring up the Beam Rifle calc. If you have doubts, it may be worth a re-calc.

This is another possibly supersonic feat from Forerunner Armigers, and another from an Elite Zealot. And another from a comic, but potentially outlierish depending on if it is calcable, and not just an aim dodge.

That was something I also discussed multiple times in great length. But in the first instance, we do not know how far away Victor was when shot was fired. But, the second shot, I literally have went over every detail back and forth calculating exact distance, how far Otto moved his head to evade it, ect and found it was only like Subsonic at best. And that's also overlooking other issues for standard assumption off panel reactions, it lacks the criteria to prove that it isn't considered aim dodging since it goes straight to shot not yet fired to shot completely missed; plus Otto kind looks like he didn't even move paying attention to how his hands are positioned. So it looks like Victor most likely made a bad turn and slightly just missed him with Otto not even moving an inch.

 

[Hellbeast]

Beam Rifle is like the Only Hypersonic infantry gun and it is Mach 10.75 to be specific, but it is consistently a trump card speed/range wise.

Hypersonic+ actually

Also, plenty of writers often forget the difference between Supersonic and Hypersonic; trust me, I've seen writers call Mach 2 Hypersonic and call lightning bolts only Supersonic before.

While this is true, we have no evidence except a nearly 10 year old game guide saying otherwise, it’s not a great source

Yes, most Covenant weapons are indeed Subsonic which is made consistent with the Covenant Carbine's description and books even having the "Meters per Second" statements consistent with.

Wait what books mention this for the Carbine?

But Covenant Carbine has no real Hypersonic feats, and the speed lines up with other descriptions.

And the Beam Rifle has no real Hyper feats but we still take it as such

But we also need to compared it to various UNSC weapons; it is clearly much closer to the firing range, velocity, and power per hit as the MA5 Assault Rifle series and not even close to reaching SRS Sniper Rifle series of those.

While this is true I wouldn’t use this as hard evidence. The Plasma Pistol is compared to the Human counterparts such as Magnum and Sidekick but is actually shown to be significantly more powerful (at least with Overcharge)

Considering the Carbine is an alien weapon from a civilisation that blatantly has technology > the UNSC; I see no reason to use the argument mentioned above

And these aren't just Halo 3 era stuff, various Halo 4 to Halo 5 versions of various UNSC weapons also repeat similar muzzle velocity ratings. Bungie has always been much smarter when it comes to facts about fire arm/ballistic physics compared to 343 Industries.

Tbh Bungie’s numbers make no real sense either considering all human weapons use an outdated calibre. And while you’re right about the UNSC ratings, 343 have moved away from hard numbers on their weapons in the new Encyclopedia

If it was truly Hypersonic, it could not be locked to 600m being the effective firing range. And I'm positive they'd be a lot more deadly than what is consistently portrayed.

I mean most Halo weapons are hysterically overpowered compared to IRL weapons and the Reddit post I linked above shows several impressive feats the Carbine can achieve.

Because even in the novels, Carbines are portrayed as far weaker compared to things like UNSC Sniper Rifles or Needlers.

Would this not simply be a feat for the Needlers and Snipers?

If it was truly Hypersonic, its firing range would have to be more than quadruple what it normally does + combining the fact that the range/KE would be in Sniper Round territory while maintaining the rapid fire capability of an Assault Rifle should be combo considered too OP.

Iirc most Halo weapons have abysmal range for what they are so could this not simply be an extension of that issue? Bungie and 343 aren’t particularly good with firearm matters and the series isn’t very hard science fiction

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Wait what books mention this for the Carbine?

Not for carbine, but for things like Plasma Rifles. Books mention things like "One hundred and twenty-six meters per second" which is consistent with the bungie guide.

While this is true I wouldn’t use this as hard evidence. The Plasma Pistol is compared to the Human counterparts such as Magnum and Sidekick but is actually shown to be significantly more powerful (at least with Overcharge)

In terms of damage output yes, but not in terms of speed.

Considering the Carbine is an alien weapon from a civilisation that blatantly has technology > the UNSC; I see no reason to use the argument mentioned abov

Better technology =/= stronger firepower always. Especially since Carbine is like one of the weakest Covenant weapons in existence. And it's not just in terms of gameplay, but the damage output is still comparable to just regular bullets and it's shown to have like 0 effect on Spartan armor unlike the plasma pistal that literally burnt through Samuels suit and destroyed his oxygen tank.

Tbh Bungie’s numbers make no real sense either considering all human weapons use an outdated calibre. And while you’re right about the UNSC ratings, 343 have moved away from hard numbers on their weapons in the new Encyclopedia

That's the thing, sure their ships are out of this world compared to RL counterparts, but firearms are still just regular firearms. And that's something that makes Halo its identity. It may be a sci-fi setting, but tries to keep things realistic or down to earth. Most classic Sci-Fi settings are like Cosmic scale or Physics defying stuff are all over the place even as early as the 21st century. Halo tries to make it where we probably would have invented pretty much everything shown in Halo lore by the time we reach the 26th century.

I mean most Halo weapons are hysterically overpowered compared to IRL weapons and the Reddit post I linked above shows several impressive feats the Carbine can achieve.

Most UNSC weapons are still realistic and look like they barely made improvements compared to RL counterparts; at least for firearms. Covenant weapons have decent destruction feats and seem to behave like mini rocket launchers.

Would this not simply be a feat for the Needlers and Snipers?

Needlers do have quite a bit of notable feats, especially their ability to wreck vehicles and tanks. Sniper Rifles, are still just regular Sniper Rifles. Also, I already stressed this enough that downscaling standard weapons from superhuman characters causes a lot of loopholes hence why I mentioned plans to clarify standards for weapon/vehicle scaling is something we got to be strict with compared to characters with Shounen/RPG powers.

Iirc most Halo weapons have abysmal range for what they are so could this not simply be an extension of that issue? Bungie and 343 aren’t particularly good with firearm matters and the series isn’t very hard science fiction

They usually have realistic portrayals of firing ranges based on the guidebook statements. Bungie actually was great at firearm science; not so much 343. And it's a Sci-Fi setting that tries to be down to Earth. Not quite Call of Duty levels of underwhelming, and Superhuman genetics enhanced by power armor exists. But magic weapons that break physics among other things is not what Halo is about. For example, a 30 megaton bomb would have the AoE to prove it. And they have large spaceships and prep time nukes far bigger and better than any of our own. But guns and tanks are still just relatively normal level guns and tanks.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Hello, VersusJunkie. Been a good while since I've seen you about, and back on Halo no less.

I don't know the Deep Lore on Halo, so I am merely here to announce that when all is said and done, I offer to look through it all and give my opinions on it, since you'll be needing more than one admin for all this.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Most UNSC weapons are still realistic and look like they barely made improvements compared to RL counterparts; at least for firearms. Covenant weapons have decent destruction feats and seem to behave like mini rocket launchers.

That reminds me. Do we have any additional feats for the Spartan Laser?

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Reactive metal liquid crystal layer: Sandwiched between the external armor and the internal padding is a layer of piezoelectric material that deforms along a preferred axis when exposed to an electric charge. This layer acts as synthetic muscle, allowing the Spartan access to approximately five times their unarmored strength when using the Mark VI due to new optimization of the crystalline geometries.

~ Halo: The Essential Visual Guide, page 157

~ Halo Encyclopedia: The Definitive Guide to the Halo Universe, page 91

The liquid crystal layer increases the strength of the wearer by a factor of five in addition to amplifying the user's reaction time by the same factor.

~ Halo Encyclopedia (2009 edition), unknown page

If these statements are proven true, would this be applicable to a Unarmoured Spartan's Lifting Strength, Striking Strength, and Reaction Speed?

That is specifically referring to when they are in the armor as without the armor, they ain’t as strong as they are hence why we have keys related to the armors being used.

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

That is specifically referring to when they are in the armor as without the armor, they ain’t as strong as they are hence why we have keys related to the armors being used.

I know, I was wondering if either Unarmoured Spartans could be downscaled to 5X below Armoured Spartans or if Armoured Spartans could at a minimum upscale to 5X above Unarmoured Spartans

 

[HammerStrikes219]

I know, I was wondering if either Unarmoured Spartans could be downscaled to 5X below Armoured Spartans or if Armoured Spartans could at a minimum upscale to 5X above Unarmoured Spartans

Don’t think we have any unarmored spartans feats outside of John 117 killing a few ODSTs unarmored as there was a particular instance of young ass John 117 manhandling the ODST and kick their collective asses there.

Edit: There is a respect thread for Master Chief as I forget about some more

https://www.reddit.com/r/respectthreads/s/KsaAUG68k1

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

Actually I may been forgetting some more unarmored feats outside of that particular instance

IIRC this was one of their other noteworthy unarmoured feats.

During their initial exercises in Reach's titanium mines, after recovering from the augmentations, the Spartans completely overpowered trainers wearing Mark I exoskeletons, outrunning their automated targeting systems and dismantling the heavy combat suits with their bare hands. A kick by John-117 flung one of the exoskeleton-clad men eight meters.

“ John landed, turned, braced, and kicked one guard. The man landed in a heap... 8 meters away „

~ Halo, The Fall Of Reach Pg 72

Spoiler

~ Halo: Fall of Reach - Boot Camp Issue 3