Halo Hypersonic upgrade?

[Zemillion]

I've found a a few feats that should upgrade Halo's superhuman combatants from supersonic to hypersonic.

"Uncannily quick, the Prelate raised his hardlight shield and deflected three shots from a Covenant carbine rifle. The bright green hypersonic slugs ricocheted with glassy pings, sparking radioactive fuel. A glance to his right and the Prelate identified the shooter: an Unggoy standing on the other side of the bay, at the top of a bow-side ramp. Two squads of Sangheili rangers were spilling down the ramp past the Unggoy".

-Halo: Fractures, pg. 183 (Halo: Shadow of Intent)

The Prelate was capable of deflecting hypersonic rounds before indentifying exactly where they were fired from. His hardlight shield isn't as big as the standard Z-90 5 foot 6 shield;it's just roughly the size of his forearm. It should be noted that Prelates are faster than Elites,Brutes and Spartans(maybe with Kelly being the exception),but Rtas kept up with him nonetheless.So this should scale to them too.


The next is from Halo:Bloodline https://imgur.com/a/lrBaqNH

Otto-031 dodges a shot from a Type-50 Sniper rifle at about a 2 metres. Acoording to Bungie,it has a muzzle velocity of 3657 m/s(mach 10).(http://halo.bungie.net/projects/halo3/content.aspx?link=h3beamrifle)

Pretty straight forward.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

A Covenant Carbine doesnt fire ar Hypersonic speeds, the rounds only move at 700 m/s, that is Supersonic

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Carbine is only Supersonic and the Beam Rifle was evaded via aim dodging; so it doesn't really scale to anyone's reactions speed. Otto jumped to the side before Victor pulled the trigger. Victor was also crying, and the AI was trying to convince him not to shoot, implying he wasn't in any good condition to be aiming or shooting.

 

[Zemillion]

A Covenant Carbine doesnt fire ar Hypersonic speeds, the rounds only move at 700 m/s, that is Supersonic

They usually don't fire at hypersonic speeds and they don't fire slugs either.This Carbine does both,so it's a pretty unique case.

 

[Zemillion]

Carbine is only Supersonic and the Beam Rifle was evaded via aim dodging; so it doesn't really scale to anyone's reactions speed. The Spartan pushed the other Spartan out of the line of fire before the Beam Rifle was fired.

You're misinterpreting the panels. Victor-101 fired at Otto-031 with the beam rifle.Otto dodged the beam then dived into Victor to restrain him.I don't see any aim dodging there.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

He still moved out of the line of fire before the Beam Rifle was even fired, which is Aim Dodging; which the Beam Rifle is way faster than any Spartan's combat speed. It's still not legit for an upgrade. Carbine is also still only 700 m/s which is Supersonic; and all variants of the Carbine also have the same.

Also, Hypersonic+ sounds pretty hyperbolic considering everyone is usually blitzed by the 792 m/s Assault Rifles, and the fact that John only barely dodges the 427 m/s Magnum at point blank range. But the problem isn't it being an outlier, but it's still not concrete for reasons above.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Also Carbines do absolutely fire slugs, thats what their munitions are, compressed radioactive projectiles fired at high speeds

 

[KarmodF]

@DMM

That doesnt look like qim dodging, aim dodging is usually done by evading the shot without looking and running at opposite directions, here the spartan reacted to the shot, hence why you can see him moving his head while the shot already passed his head, if it was aim dodging we would see him rolling out of his aim or see him running begore the shot completed his trayectory.

I would need to check the carabine one latter.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

It is aim dodging; aim dodging is where you move out of the way before the blast is even fired; which is the case here. There is also no distance from where it was fired known; either way, it doesn't scale. The Spartan jump before the Beam Rifle finished charging and was fired; even normal humans can aim dodge bullets or even laser pointers.

All aim dodging means is they reacted before the shooter and has nothing to do with the projectiles speed. And of course he was moving his head because he was worried his might be too close to the beam. That doesn't mean he outpaced the beam. And forgot to mention above, Victor wasn't mentally stable during that incident and his AI was trying to force him not to shoot, so he sort of poorly aimed at the last second.

 

[KarmodF]

A beam rifle doesnt charge, again the spartan was very close to the guy with the beam rifle, around 10 meters or so, if it was aim dodging he would have evaded the shot by moving his entire body, here he was able to move his head and torso before the shot completed his trayectory.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Again, normal humans IRL have aim dodged arrows and sniper rifles in the same scenario, and those people don't scale to those projectiles. It wasn't point blank in the slightest and it was like a split second it was fired is when he did a side jump and it just narrowly missed. And actually, Beam Rifles do require a split fraction of a second to charge. It's still not legit and doesn't scale to anyone.

We can't scale weapons that are completely undodgeable in canon to anyone; especially if even weapons with slower muzzle velocities than the Beam Rifle are always portrayed as undodgeable for every character.

 

[KarmodF]

Link? I get arrows but I doubt people able to move and react to sniper shots, nothing in the panel suggest that he moved away before the shot, still, he was fairly close to him at a range that seems like 10 or so meters, again to move away from a close shot you need to move your body at a similar speed, any proof that the Beam Rifle requires a charge before shooting? Because it requires one for realoding and the guy held the gun seconds before shooting, meaning that it was already realoded and didnt need any charge.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

This article does explain some details. Anyway, I'm not talking about their reaction speed outpaced the bullet, but this is still an example of aim dodging. People have evaded bullets by ducking behind a car and it actually happens quite often. And even without cover, people have aim dodged sniper rifles during the civil war for example.

Aim dodging isn't specific and it can mean one of many things can make something "aim dodging" and not legit. If he jumped out the line of fire before it was fired, that's aim dodging. If the shooter simply didn't aim properly, then the dodger never needed to outpace the shot. The panel is too vague in general, he's holding the rifle and not yet fired in the first two panels; and then the third shows he just barely missed. That's still looks more like aim dodging. It's also made clear cut the Beam Rifle is way faster than the Spartan's reaction. Point blank range would be like a few inches which isn't the case at all.

And no, you don't quite need to react at similar speed to dodge from 10 meters away; if he moved half a meter the same time it was shot from 10 meters away, then it would only be 1/20th the speed. Furthermore, it would be very inconsistent for Spartans, Elites, Brutes, ect. to have Mach 10 reactions if they clearly can't even react to Mach 2.3 Assault Rifle bullets or a Mach 4.6 Sniper Rifle. And even John's point blanks Mach 1.25 Magnum dodging feat while legit was just barely done. So I'm 100% positive the Beam Rifle evading is not legit and we can't scale anyone from it.

 

[KarmodF]

Very different example, as soldiers evading shots in wars then to be behind covers or just pure luck, in which they would throw themselves to the ground rather than evading them by moving his torso. (tldr: False equivalency)

You keep mentioning that is aim dodging because the guy hoped before it was shot? Even if it shows that the other spartan evaded the shot by moving his torso and head, which shows he is reacting to the shot rather than just evading his opponent's aim.

Yes you do? When you are at a close distance between the shot and evade it with relative speed before it hits you like is shown in the panel. Both of those arent even legit, in one the brute is being held by 3 spartans and one is shooting him cm away from his eye, while the other the elites were suprsied by the shot/not combat ready (Without even mentioning that both are from the babysitter which runs on "rule of the cool" and has various open liberties on canon) Johns feat is in similar case to Sonic being able to barely move out of bullets, just done for the sake of making the scene more dramatic, also it would be better to post the scan/quote to analyze it.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Both Batman and Spider Man have moved their heads and torsos to dodge lasers, even I moved my head to dodge a laser pointer to make sure it didn't shine in my eyes also. This is the same case here and it's still aim dodging here.

He could have and most likely "moved his head and Torso" slightly before the rifle was shot. Also, he was clearly in falling position implying he jumped given his body was leaning to the side and that he lost his balance afterwards; aka another aim dodging indication. Pretty sure DonTalk would be saying the same thing.

There is no proof the distance was ever closed before he jumped to the side. All it takes is him moving faster than the shooter pulling the trigger. Also, there's no way 3 regular marines could hold a Brute down, and actually, dodging a bullet you didn't see coming would be a better example of a reaction speed feat which the Prophet failed to do. Legends is still based on canon books save Odd One Out. Additionally, in The Package, all the Elites among other Spartan level troops were blitzed by the Assault Rifles, and there was the Brute that was bothered by a couple of Magnums; the Subsonic weapons are all easy dodges though. And the difference is that Sonic actually have combat speed feats that are above Supersonic and bullet timing feats were extremely casual; Halo mostly has Subsonic combat speed feats and a few Supersonic. And always fail to dodge anything faster than that without Aim Dodging.

The Carbine feat being on a higher degree of Supersonic is fine, but no higher than that.

 

[KarmodF]

Yes and they are both MHS and higher, your real life example is useless unles you actually put any reliable source, since your example is based on the fact that you dodge somebody aiming, while the spartan was already aimed and was evading the shot, not the aim and no he is not falling its literally shown a panel after how he tackles the other spartan right after he removes the chip.

The distance is fairly close, also whats the point of using a feat and then calling it an outlier right after? And no only the package is based on the novels, the others are 100% made by toei and the other studios originally for the special, also I can name a thousand characters with speed above supersonic who are still hitted and need to rely on aim dodging to evade basic bullet burst by normal guns, its just a common thing in fiction.


We need to see at official speed statements and consistency, the last time we were talking about speed you were using in game ratings.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Yes, they're Massively Hypersonic, not Speed of Light using the same logic being done here. None of that still disproves that it is aim dodging; there is no proof that the kid pulled the trigger before the Spartan jumped. And once again, the beam was much faster than the Spartan's movement.

"Ten meters" is still a reasonable distance compared to his movement not even being a meter; still heavily implied he jumped either at the same time, or slightly before the shot was fired. He does not scale to the full speed of the Beam Rifle. That speed would still be heavily contradicted for other reasons. And I'm also positive the Spartan has a faster reaction time than the kid; another indication he could have jumped before he pulled the trigger.

6 out of 7 of the Halo Legends are considered canon; Odd One Out is the only non-canon one and/or based on a novel. The other 6 are based on canon stories. Still anything higher than Supersonic contradicts a lot. Those all come verses with much higher power levels than Halo or many other First Person Shooter verses do. Jim Raynor doesn't have Supersonic combat speed via blocking when he shielded Kerrigan from it, nor do characters like The Agent from Crackdown via aim dodging bullets. Miles Dyson has ducked his head to dodge a sniper bullet Sarah Conner before in the same scenario, it's still aim dodging.

Actually, those are 100% canon sources made by the creators; from Halo Encyclopedia to be specific. "Game stats" just say low, medium, high, very high, ect. The very specific muzzle velocity ratings are the literal intended muzzle velocities. And it's also where their Kinetic energy calcs that scale to Attack Potency come from is the muzzle velocity. Calling the "game ratings" would be the same thing as saying "Beam Rifles aren't 3657 m/s" since that also came from the same source. Using "damage ratings" and life points to scale AP and Durability instead of calcs would be what actual "game stats". There really is no other source if not used. It's better to use official sources instead of using scientifically inaccurate reverse/backwards power scaling; which is on my list of projects. And same with Spartan lasers being light speed. Covenant Plasma weapons other than Carbine and Beam Rifle are only Subsonic. And it's actually realistic since Flamethrower is the closest thing in the real world to a plasma rifle. All "Sniper weapons" are very consistently treated as undodgeable by every character in the Halo verse and they simply don't have reliable any feats to make them higher than Supersonic.

 

[KarmodF]

False equivalency, even beams vary in terms of speed, we cant just asume they are sol right of the bat and there is proof that he dodged the beam as seen how the beam already completed its trayectory and the spartan is evading it, nothing suggest he just jumped to the other side neither.

The distance being 10 meters means that the Beam rifle would cover that distance almost instantly meaning that the Spartans could only evade the shot when its almost on his, unless he is faster than the beam an could react to his trayectory mid-flight.

Yes, Legends is canon but only like 2 of the stories are based on a novel, the babysitter isnt one of them as its made from the ground up for the OVA, again, not because Halo isnt 8-A nor 7-C means we can encapsulate his speed to be this slow.

Again, scans, the last time you were using sorces from halo alpha which based their ratings on in game calculation. Also having a close mind on only official sources because "muh guides" and "muh real life logic" is being bias to other possible featd and as I previously mention characters with higher speeds than supersonic having trouble with bullets is very common in fiction, like Batman and Spidey.

Anyway I think it would be better to close this discussion and look for better feats since we would just be going in circles discussing about 2 feats from the thousands that halo has.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

No, actually those are legitimately lightspeed lasers, they just don't scale because it's aim dodging based on the same sort of scene as this one. Furthermore, there are discussions about Batman's Massively Hypersonic speed feats being outliers. And again, you're relying far too much on assumptions; there is no proof the beam was fired before he jumped. Meaning the jump likely happened around the same time and likely slightly before it was fired and it wasn't Matrix style. If it wasn't aim dodging, then there should have at least been a panel showing him fire the beam with him still in the line of fire, or there should have been a blur (Like an after image or something). Multiple staff members in the past agreed the Beam Rifle feat was aim dodging including WeeklyBattles, Soldier Blue, and FanofRPGs. VersusJunkie said he thinks the feat is more like Supersonic+ to Hypersonic iirc, but I'm still positive it's aim dodging and doesn't scale to anyone.

Also, Otto hasn't made any sudden movements till after the beam already concluded its journey and hit the wall. Otto most likely moved out of the way before it was even fired and Victor most likely didn't have the best aim. Otto really didn't want to take the hit, and probably has a bit faster reaction time than the mentally unstable Victor having his vision blocked by Iona. Also, Muzzle Velocity only usually applies to the initial launch as projectiles gradually get slower as the fly away from the launching point.

I know the distinction between Tier and speed quite well, but the fact of the matter is; Halo Spartans lack concrete feats above Tier 9 and Supersonic. Note that Rocket Launcher calc is wanked, which is going to lead to a list of downgrades since rocket launchers are more like Tier 9 instead of 8-C and the Small Building level+ calc was based on Calc Stacking from an outdated calc. It uses the 3 Gigajoule calc that no longer exists and is currently half that but still overcalc'd. A more accurate method for calcing the RPGs seem to get 9-B to 9-A results.

It says the source is from Halo Encyclopedia which is both canon and up to date, and it did not use game calcs. It would have been in pixels per second or frames per second if it was game calc; but it said meters per second. And our current weapon profiles are literally based on the scans from Halo Encyclopedia. There wouldn't even be stats for other weapons that were sourced from Halo Encyclopedia such as the MAC stuff, or High Hypersonic Gauss cannons among other things. I'm also sure actual game calcs would have been even slower, but it's better to use canonicity and/or actual calcs instead of guess work/high balled assumptions for everything. And again, none of those have calcs on those higher up levels, and I'm already have plans in stores for a thread discussing problems with scaling fodder lower leveled weapons from stronger weapons and have very in depth explanations. Ordinary pistols are no higher than 9-C and Supersonic and are way weaker than rocket launchers, same with flamethrowers obviously being way slower than sniper weapons; it's common sense. Also, don't pull the "biased" card when it's clear cut Halo seems to get way too much special treatment compared to other verses; this includes game mechanics, reverse power scaling, Calc Stacking, and treating things that are the exact opposite of feats as feats. And using false equivalencies and strawmans doesn't refute against my points any further. If you want to know real equivalencies, Warthogs having Building level durability scaling from Fuel Rods is the same thing as Honda Civics having Building level+ durability via withstanding lightning bolts. Or certain fictional characters being 7-B via surviving a Volcano Eruption that covered a city despite the durability required to survive lava being Building level.

Fuel Rods are only 9-A now anyway. Via vaporizing 25 kg of Titanium and 35 kg of Biomass. It doesn't melt or vaporize vehicles because it's only enough heat to vaporize under 50 kg of titanium or melt less than 100 kg. It only slightly heats up a 3000 kg vehicle, or melts a small part of it. But simply smashing through those same Warthogs is blatantly Wall level. There's also the fact that it was universally agreed that heat/radiation resistance =/= blunt force durability unless context is deep enough. But here it isn't.

Both in game and the animated stuff treat most Covenant weapons as being much slower than bullets. And same with damage ratings; there's obvious clear cut indication that surviving chemical based weapons not meant to damage metallic objects do less damage then penetrating weapons despite the former having a lower calc. It's more than just "Guide Books" or "Real Life logic", it's using canonicity sources vs stuff that simply don't exist. Spartan Laser also wouldn't even be speed of light if we didn't use Halo Encyclopedia since lasers don't explode; but muzzle velocity makes it light speed. Matt made a thread discussing problems with fighting games when you try to make underdogs on par with god tiers, which the same thing happens here. I don't need to explain problems with Spartan durability scaling from a grenade that one-shots them, which in turn scales to a bullet that only chip damages them, and then scales to a fodder enemy that can be easily killed by handguns. A 9-A/8-C oneshots a 9-A, who is chip damaged by a 9-C weapon, and then scales to a Tier 10 fodder who survives the handgun with significant damage. "Let's screw all logic and make everyone and everything 8-C to 9-A." That's kind of how some Halo fans here try to do for 90% of Halo profiles. And speed feats are literally the same case; Stormtroopers and Han Solo aren't FTL via aim dodging lasers.

The difference as that those characters have plenty of feats and/or calcs that are well above Supersonic, the one and only "feat" in Halo that seemingly puts them higher than Supersonic doesn't even appear to be concrete, and once again; other feats range from Subsonic to Supersonic with the lower ones being more common. If anything, Supersonic is actually generous, and another note, John deflecting the Scorpion Missile is another feat that's only Subsonic+ because RPGs are a bit slower though much stronger than handguns. RPGs are 295 m/s to be specific. There is no A > B > C for the majority of weapon scaling; and especially for FPS verses that are typically grounded to not be much different than the real world, it's just each and every weapon has their purpose. Some are stronger but slower, others are faster but weaker, others have long range and are strong and fast muzzle velocity, but slow recharge time, and others rapid fire but are weak with each shot. Once again, the canonical muzzle velocity ratings are backed up by literally every medium.

Also, Subsonic would still be pretty fast if that was the actual in game speed of those Covenant weapons. It really only takes a speed of just under 90 m/s to be "faster than the eye can track." Another trivia is that the gameplay does treat speeding Warthogs as being faster than Fuel Rod Cannons, but the former is 34.8691 m/s while the latter is 72 m/s; the opposite would have been true if the Encyclopedia was based on game mechanics. But the fact is, it isn't; it's the canon speed of each weapon.

I agree that the thread should be closed though, since circled arguments aren't worth it. And it isn't just Halo that has all these problems; Red Vs Blue does too and I have a feeling a lot of people are going to try to make those problems for more FPS verses to come.