Hakai Revision

[Dragonmasterxyz]

So the only reason I made this thread is simply because if we didn't make this thread now, It would flood the Tournament of Power Revision and cause it to be derailed horribly. So let's just settle this here.

So Ryukama made an actually very well made arguement in which he came up with the proposal that Hakai may not work on stronger opponents. Now I know people will get all huffy over this, and thus how about you guys discuss this. Is it the fault of the technique? Or do Frieza and Goku have a legit Resistance to Existence Erasure? Well you all decide here.

Note: I don't like making things Staff Only, but if things get out of hand I will do so.

 

[Omimi]

Frieza should have Resistance to Existence Erasure

base goku did able to Resist for some time

but he couldnt able to overcome Existence Erasure

 

[Joseph619]

Hmm, I also want to see some proof of Hakai working on stronger opponents, despite Sidra and Champa saying it would kill anybody, it has only killed two fodders and didn't work on Frieza and Goku

What are Ryukama's argument's?

 

[Blanked]

'''Didn't Frieza have something in his hand that simply helped him to control the hakai? At least from what I saw.'''

 

[Darkinx]

That sphere is clearly different from Hakai. Although both abilities have the same effect, we have to take into considerations 2 things:

-The sphere wasn't so powerful as Sidra gave the dog only a small fraction of his power

-True Hakai doesn't even need to touch the opponent as we saw Sidra hakaing the city from far away and Beerus hakaing Mashirito who is a ghost. It is clear that if a God of destruction used Hakai on Frieza, there would be nothing Frieza could do.

 

[Joseph619]

@Darkinx- It was clearly stated to be hakai and destroy anything. It Frieza and Goku resisted it by being strong enough. If hakai negated durability it shouldn't have mattered how strong Goku or Frieza is. For example, Frost's poison worked on Goku despite Goku being stronger than Frost. Or Babidi mind controlled Vegeta. Those are hax which work regardless of durability

 

[LordGriffin1000]

From what is stated and shown Hakai erases the the target from existence. Sidra created it in a ball form to allow the assassin to hold it and use it on Frieza if they couldn't kill him normally. Both Goku and Frieza got hit with the move, Goku couldn't stop in in base only resist it, Frieza in golden form resisted it and compress the attack back to its normal form before detention.

While Beerus would be stronger then Sidra, their Hakai is just that Hakai. The attack ignores durability as its Existence Erasure and it also destroys the soul along with the body. Their is no out powering things that ignore durability, you need resistance.

Both times before when this has happened, Vegito to Buu's Candy Beam and Goku to Hit's Time Stop. Both times the character said they where to strong so they resisted the effects. Yet we treat them as resistance for just those two characters not people who are obviously stronger because you shouldn't be capable of out powering something like Transmutation, Time Stop or Existence Erasure.

Higher power beating Hax isn't even consistent thing, Gohan and Krillin where massively stronger the Guildo but didn't overpower his Telekinesis or Time Stop, Dabura is much stronger then Babidi but still got mind controlle. Their are possibly more but as I'm sure you know Dragon Ball doesn't have Hax like that so its not like we'll see this often anyway.

Why is Hakai the first move in Dragon Ball to not just work on someone stronger then you, someone who is under your level?. Frieza struggled to stop Sidra's attack while Sidra casually made it so Sidra obviously is stronger.

 

[The_Everlasting]

"Higher power beating Hax isn't even consistent thing, Gohan and Krillin where massively stronger the Guildo but didn't overpower his Telekinesis or Time Stop, Dabura is much stronger then Babidi but still got mind controlle. Their are possibly more but as I'm sure you know Dragon Ball doesn't have Hax like that so its not like we'll see this often anyway."

The fact that Vegito was even affected by Buu's Chocolate Beam at all is another one, as is Babidi mind controlling Vegeta.

The whole idea of "higher ki > hax" is only directly stated in the manga, and is repeatedly contradicted by the primary canon.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

I agree with Ever.

@Ever What is your opinion on the matter?

 

[The_Everlasting]

I don't know if Goku has resistance to it, since he was still being affected and would've died if Beerus hadn't come in (From what I've heard), but Frieza's should be legit.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Well yeah, Goku was indeed struggling. He didn't get erased right away. But he held it make for some time. But yeah, he would've been erased if Beerus didn't appear.

 

[Kaltias]

Which was Ryu's argument?

 

[Dark649]

Frieza's should be legit.

I would not be so sure for now, it's better to wait because anything can happen at the end of arc even Frieza getting erased by a stronger hakai.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

@Dark Well of course we aren't gonna do any updates until after the tournament. I just wanted to address this big Hakai Elephant in the room.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Ryukama's Reasoning

"I know I'm probably going to call a "DB hater" or something for this. But I don't see why someone should have resistance to a hax when that power explicitly doesn't work on people of a certain strength.

That's just seems more like a weakness on the power's part, rather a resistance on the character's.

Personally it's kinda a stretch to say that if Frieza can resist something that anyone who is as strong as him or stronger resists, that he'll be able to resist a true durability negating power that actually works on people regardless of strength."

 

[Darkinx]

Well yeah, Goku was indeed struggling. He didn't get erased right away. But he held it make for some time. But yeah, he would've been erased if Beerus didn't appear.

Don't forget he was in base. He could've transformed

 

[LordGriffin1000]

I'll except they don't have it, when Goku or Frieza are instantly erased by a stronger Hakai but if they don't then they have it for sure.

This means we all gotta play the waiting game.

 

[Kaltias]

@Darkinx

No. If he is resistant he is resistant in base, in SSB, or with the Kaioken x 10. Otherwise it means that Hakai doesn't actually ignore durability

 

[Antvasima]

Well, my impression is that a hakai can be overcome by raw power in DBS, given the manner that Frieza resisted it. Goku would likely have been able to do the same if he had been in his SSB state.

 

[RoyGundam]

Maybe having godly ki can provide some sort of resistance to existence erasure - but then again, maybe not - considering how easily Beerus had wiped out Zamasu

 

[PaChi2]

Destruction energy is energy.

Hakai seems different from the ball Frieza got trapped in.

Both of them can erase targets, but you can somewhat control destruction energy (like the dog or frieza did) since its energy (and in dragon ball everyone and their mother have some energy projection abilities) and not... whatever hakai is. Sidra stated that it would erase anyone and it affected Golden Frieza. Frieza didnt break the ball, just separated it from him.

 

[Blanked]

Didn't Frieza have something in his hand that simply helped him to control the hakai? At least from what I saw.

Someone should re watch that ep honestly.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

So maybe we can chalk it up to 2 different Existence Erasure attacks?

Hakai- In which is the Durability Negating Existence Erasure we all know.

Energy of Destruction- An energy attack that erases the opponent's existence if it kills them.

How does this sound?

 

[RoyGundam]

"Energy of Destruction- An energy attack that erases the opponent's existence if it kills them." - sounds kind of contrived, doesn't it ?

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Hey look....I tried......

The point is that the opponent needs to die from the energy blast to be erased. As we saw the attack still functioned as an energy ball.

 

[Joseph619]

That attack is still called hakai though. And it's not like Beerus has any feats of beating people as strong as him. Zamasu was a fodder who could be killed with a fart from Beerus, no offence Zamasu fans

 

[LordGriffin1000]

The blast hits Frieza, he tries to stop it, it explodes, he fakes getting effected by it then processeds to slowly revert it back to its contained form.

I don't know why we just don't wait, the tournament is literally starting next episode.

 

[Joseph619]

I got the impression that hakai erases anybody under certain level, and it doesn't work on people as strong or stronger than the user. Of course that could be wrong in the future, but it hasn't shown durability negation since Frieza was 'strong' enough to tank it. Similar to Ryukama's views

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

That attack is still called hakai though. And it's not like Beerus has any feats of beating people as strong as him. Zamasu was a fodder who could be killed with a fart from Beerus, no offence Zamasu fans

So do we assume that Hakai doesn't work on people as strong as him? That ruins the point of hax. I guess Zeed's absorption doesn't work on foes on his level because he never showed it. I guess Yhwach's hax doesn't work on characters on his level because it was never shown. I guess Hades's Existence Erasure doesn't work on stronger foes because it was never shown. That logic alone won't work.

Note:I could careless about what is decided here.

 

[RoyGundam]

Personally, I think both Goku and Frieza should get Resistance to Existence Erasure. It's going to be canon by the end of the Universe Survival Arc anyways because we know that Jiren can't be killed by the God of Destruction of his Universe and Goku is inevitably going to fight him

 

[Ryop]

Seriosuly nobody listen listan to what Sidra said? that Energy of Destruction was only small part of that power,that wasnt a real Hakai

 

[Kaltias]

Hitting with the 0.0000000000000000000000001% of an existence erasing attack that ignores durability should still ignore durability and erase you though.

 

[Joseph619]

So do we assume that Hakai doesn't work on people as strong as him? That ruins the point of hax. I guess Zeed's absorption doesn't work on foes on his level because he never showed it. I guess Yhwach's hax doesn't work on characters on his level because it was never shown. I guess Hades's Existence Erasure doesn't work on stronger foes because it was never shown. That logic alone won't work.

Who cares about Hades or Zeed? I am only talking only about hakai here. Hakai doesn't work on people of certain strength, which means it doesn't ignore durability, otherwise it should work on anybody regardless of their durability (Goku and Frieza). That's what we have seen so far

Edit: Anyway, I don't care much about dragon ball so it doesn't matter to me what happens here. I'm fine whether hakai gets durability negation or not.

 

[RoyGundam]

All of this bellyaching would become moot anyways once Goku and Jiren duke it out

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

"Who cares about Hades or Zeed? I am only talking about hakai here."

You missed the point of my example. How about you think about why I brought them up instead of just ignoring them.

"Anyway, I don't care much about dragon ball so it doesn't matter what happens "

To address what you said to me on that One Piece thread.

-Calm Down. No reason to be angry. I never was aggressive towards you, I simply provided examples to why that reasoning alone would not work.

Follow your own advice.

"Hakai doesn't work on people of certain strength, which means it doesn't ignore durability, otherwise it should work on anybody regardless of their durability."

Hasn't been stated, nor do we have confirmation on anything.

 

[Joseph619]

Fair enough.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Note how I'm not saying you are wrong, just that you need more than "lack of using it on stronger foes or on foes of similar power" logic to denounce it as Durability Negation.

 

[Ryukama]

I can't say much more besides what Dragon already quoted me for.

If people want to say that this Destructive Energy Ball isn't Hakai or that a "full powered" Hakai could erase them and what not, I'd be fine with that. People can still have their durability negating Beerus.

But regardless I'm not so sure if we're to call these feats Frieza and Goku showed a resistance to durability negation. As an attack negatable by sheer strength isn't really durability negating per say.

Along with the argument one can make about how this is more of an exploitation of the attack's weakness, rather than a strength of the characters. If this ball only works on people who are weak enough, Frieza and Goku don't need to have hax resistance for it to not work.

If there was a hax that only worked on a specific species, and someone who isn't that species wasn't affected by it, would we give that person resistance to hax? Or just brush it off as the fact that the hax only works on the certain species?

Whatever the rest of staff wants to decide though, I'm fine with.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

How about we give the "possibly" treatment and call it a day? Then wait till the end of the arc and whatever happens then we decide what to do with this.

If it's still an unknown case the best action would be possible resistance.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

We will wait, but I beleive we should treat these as separate attacks.