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Guts vs Ken Kaneki

"He is driven by such violent emotions, he forgets about things like pain and fear. Humans have unconsciously established bounds to their strength so they do not harm their own bodies. Pain is a warning to keep us from destroying ourselves. A human without pain realises unbelievable strength, reflexes and perception. He surpassses the limits of the human body... at the risk of his own life"

This is the quote on how the Berserker Armour works.

The first sentence is the only sentence in that explanation that is referring to Guts specifically.

Everything else is talking about "Humans", "their" (plural), "us", "a human"

The last sentence could either be talking about Guts or still referring to the general "human without pain", but it honeslty doesn't matter.

Because the part that explains ignoring limiters and "bounds to their strength" is talking about all humans. Not just "Guts with wounds from Slan". All humans. Get this into your skull. All humans have these limiters, and ignoring them causes all humans to "harm their own bodies" and end up "destroying outselves". It is the ignoring of these limiters that causes the harm. Not Gut's wounds from Slan.
 
Yeah and later established that fighting with the armor on a danger and risk because any wound inflicted will bleed out and the yser will just go on fighting mad. Hence why the armor is risky man.

Which honestly would make sense as later after healing he did not damage himself again.
 
TheJ-ManRequiem said:
The fact ya stated he got his ass kicked which is a blatant lie?
Click to expand...
"If I stay on defense he'll crush me"

"If I blink my head will be split open"

"Matching his blows is rattling my bones"

"I can't just absorb this force"

He was losing the fight, and only the handy plot of a sword just happening to be on the ground near his foot let him stab Zodd.

Twisting words monarch? How low can ya go? An calculation of 4 time above what ken scaled off existed and that would be the minimum for an exhausted and weakened guts excluding he walked the feat off with minimal drawback. Extrapolating ken defeating a baseline and amping him over 4 time when a guts way below the one he fighting had a much better feat with an calculation.

Twisting words? Not at all. You said yourself, and I quote you directly on this, ">Litterally 4 times hjgher. > Only a bit. He almost would ohko."

You think that being 4 times higher than something is enough to almost one hit KO. Thus, I assume you don't have a problem with Kaneki being four times stronger than Eto, seeing as he one-hit KO'd her? That's your logic. So either you think that being able to one-hit KO someone means they are 4 times stronger, and Kaneki is 4 times stronger than peak Eto who does casual city block feats when starved, or you change your mind and say that 4 times is not enough to one-shot, in which case Guts won't be one-shotting anymore.

Ken moving or lack of would be fatal and days monarch not an hour or two hence ya have the longest fight he engaged?.

Ken moving would be fatal? No, that's literally the opposite of what would happen. Ken moving would let him stay alive.

Ken staying still would be fatal sure, but he doesn't stay still. That's not how he fights.

Ghouls can regain their stamina with a single bite of human flesh. This takes place in New York, I'm sure there's some people around Kaneki can take a bite out of. Especially if he just climbs up an office building or something, which Guts wouldn't be able to follow.
 
TheJ-ManRequiem said:
Yeah and later established that fighting with the armor on a danger and risk because any wound inflicted will bleed out and the yser will just go on fighting mad.
Hence why the armor is risky man.

Which honestly would make sense as later after healing he did not damage himself again.
Click to expand...
That is another danger. Not the only one. A new weakness of the armour being added does not magically retcon out the other established weakness.

Show proof that he didn't damage himself again. And I mean quotes or panels of him stating that he's no longer taking damage from it, not just fights where Miura decided not to repeat himself.
 
Also the hax from negation actually from harming apostle ganiska.

Also blood only from wounded body parts and even mentioned by schierke.

Adf355e2ac3dfc06c5ba2919468f5ba8
P (11) 01
P (24) 01
Also panel above. Explain why he did bleed while fighting.
 
Harming Apostle Ganishka is just because the sword can affect the astral plane, and is irrelevant here because Kaneki isn't intangible.

Don't bring up things that are irrelevent to this fight to make Guts sound more impressive.
 
Yeah he was fighting zodd? Zodd far above him within power. Actually even better feat man. Ya excluded guts outlasted and deflected all of zodd attack and even landed more attacks and zodd pointing out how skilled guts actually was after man.

Drop ya bullshit if extrapolating a feat and putting him above what he is listed at by literal multiple times it get a calculation. Not how that work ya get a calculation or not and ya excluded my obvious rebuttal man. Did reiterate man just go back and look.

Ya realize guts fighting within the armor while no blood or damage occurred and happened be fine after the fight would imply ya wrong? But fine. Will find and link all armor fights within the manga.
 
TheJ-ManRequiem said:
Yeah he was fighting zodd?
Zodd far above him within power. Actually even better feat man. Ya excluded guts outlasted and deflected all of zodd attack and even landed more attacks and zodd pointing out how skilled guts actually was after man.
Click to expand...
Tons of people have pointed out how skilled Arima, Kaneki and Eto are in TG. And Kaneki was fighting people more powerful than him all the way back in series one.

Drop ya bullshit if extrapolating a feat and putting him above what he is listed at by literal multiple times it get a calculation. Not how that work ya get a calculation or not and ya excluded my obvious rebuttal man. Did reiterate man just go back and look.

My bullshit? I certainly never said I think Kaneki is 4 times Eto. I'm using your own logic to come to that conclusion, and thus demonstrate to your that your logic is flawed.

Ya realize guts fighting within the armor while no blood or damage occurred and happened be fine after the fight would imply ya wrong? But fine. Will find and link all armor fights within the manga.

Or imply Miura isn't one to repeat himself. But good boy.
 
P (24) 01 (1)
P (11) 01 (1)
Just walking and climbing a building not gonna do much. Well ya figure that guts can jump many of meters and jump off walls or scale objects and accusing me? Ha not my intention but if ya wanna play that game im fine with pointing fingers and making claims just for a example of degrading just because ya find that fine. But no the dragon harming on the astral plane mostly from ganishka and not godhand slan from wounding him permanently.
 
Show feats of Guts scaling sheer surfaces, then you can talk about him following Kaneki up a building. We've already established Kaneki has superior agility anyway.

First page there just explains how the Berserker Armour fixes broken bones. He was already bleeding from using the armour before that page.

Second panel is from after he is out of the armour, and just shows that his entire body is wounded and that he's coughing up blood. It doesn't say that those were Slan's wounds, and in fact the implication of the next panel is that those wounds come from his use of the armour.
 
And? Yeah he did fight skilled opponents but ya mentioning unrelated topics and that would have zero effect on zodd and guts fighting and guts fighting on equal footing despite power difference and outlasting ZODD.

Yah actually. Ya extrapolating him far past what he would be listed from GUTS and having a decent feat far above him. Ken an decent amount over baseline and guts a decent amount over a feat litterally four multiplied of what he is meaning yeah. Guts would ohko.

Having eyes and reading comprehension a skill unless ya mean guts within all fight after healed bled? Except when he did not visually and even had guts jumping around with schierke all over the place.
 
I'm just saying that Kaneki is skilled enough to keep up with Guts.

And there is it again. By saying that something 4 times stronger can almost ohko, you imply that one needs to be over four times stronger to ohko. Kaneki has one-hit KO city block people before. And you think doesn't mean he is 4 times stronger than him. But you also think that Guts being 4 times stornger than Kaneki means he can ohko. But when Kaneki onehit KO'd someone, you don't think that means he's 4 times stronger, despite stating yourself that being 4 times stronger is enough to almost OHKO. Your logic is disconnected and flawed.

Jumping around doesn't equal climbing sheer structures.
 
Gee monarch did ya read the entire thing?

"The armor is reinforcing his broken limb... By piercing through his flesh and biting into his bones."

"Devoured by steel teeth." "Blood gushed out from where his bones where broken."

"The armor ate into his body for days unable to be removed and the bleeding continued."

The bleeding came from the armor making limb and broken body parts work.

Also >He was bleeding even prior. Yeah litterally from the wound by slan and pointed out explicitly he was bleeding from the wound he got an hour ago. Did ya read?.

P (19) 01
P (20) 01
 
Not even close as zodd almost on par with skull knight man.

Ken an decent amount over baseline and guts a decent amount over a feat litterally four multiplied of what he is meaning yeah. Guts above a feat that would put him on easy ohko for a baseline and Ken being above would mitigate that but guts being above the 45 feat would mitigate that again putting him back within one hit knock out man. Ya excluding and twisting words and ya must be above that man.

Jumping most of the height would mitigate.
 
Yeah maybe if guts had broken limbs and shit prior but man wanna have a obscure fact?

He wont.

And the teeth would take literal days and days and days and days and days or did ya forget he bled for days with plenty blood left when he would fight till guts had dropped all of his blood man?.
 
He will after he starts hitting things so hard his limbs break trying to chase after Kaneki who's sitting at the top of a tower waiting for Guts to die
 
He'd be hitting the ground or the air after Kaneki dodges the attack. He'd be hitting the ground or buildings with his feet to jump around.

So has Kaneki.
 
Why would he be hitting the ground? Ya realize he can just move his arm?

>Hitting air. Yeah because hitting the air will do what man exactly?.

Find me an example of guts jumping and damaging because ya grasping hard now especially as guts had done exactly that about 50 times with no damage man.
 
He's hitting the ground because Kaneki dodges out of the way.

If he swings his sword through the air and misses, he's either going to need to apply equal force in the opposite direction to stop it, meaning he's basically pushing against the force of his own sword swing, or he's just going to spin around on the sword's momentum until it runs out.

It's simple logic man. Newton's third law is in full effect here. If he pushes on the ground with enough force to jump, the ground is pushing back with equal force to propel him up. And he can't take his own force.
 
Of which not once did that happen.

Find me an example of him jumping off attacking and not hitting a thing and bleeding. Go on man will honestly wait for ya. Mean while check out the lord fight and point out when he jumped and damaged or bled man chapter 318.
 
He breaks his bones by hitting things. Hitting something would create opposing force, just like pushing off the ground would.

And it's not like he needs to actually break his bones anyway. He'll end up destroying himself without his limiters anyway.
 
No, the damage does not come from the steel teeth. You were not paying attention. The "steel teeth" just refers to the armour spikes pinning bones back into place and stuff. The "destroying ourselves" that ignoring the body's limiters causes is different.
 
Which ya gotta find an instance for. Or im gonna take the context as obviously intended as later shown and the fights he engaged within man.

Also ya making all the fight out as that guts would just blindly attack and swing when even when armored he only attack within range and guts being within range would end ken . One attack would tear kagune and himself with one blow man.
 
Are you ******* kidding me? I've found an explanation, I've found an instance, and you've just ignored it in favour of your head canon. I've literally given you quotes from Schirke, who knows how the armour works better than you do mate, and explained how Gut's wounds from Slan, the strain caused by removing limiters, and the armour pinning him back together are all different from each other, using scans to do so, and you've completely ignored it. I'm tired of explaining that to you. I'm done. The weakness is on his profile, and until you get a content revision thread to change it, that's how it works, and any argument you make saying it doesn't harm him is invalid.

A single swing that can easily be dodged. OK. And I hate (completely love) to break it to you, but he can't tear the kagune and Kaneki apart in one blow. He simply doesn't have the range.

He's help by Schirke in that fight. She's restraining the armour's full effects.

Kaneki takes this after a long battle by dodging around making use of his superior range, agility, ability to easily replenish his stamina, and waiting for Guts to destroy himself.
 
Find me one ******* example of guts harming himself after he healed. You cant. I even linked ya an entire fight of him doing jumps and killing plenty without one instance of him harming himself. And the weakness on the profile even counting that wouldfar below what ya are extrapolating it to be.

Ah yes forget ken had ULTRA instict. The untouchable ken.

Who could have forgot? And ya say that but the jackass above was well within his range and ken just stood there.

Yeah by sealing the beast. Litterally all that happened. Nothing magically changes and if so ******* point out what because the armor still does exactly what it did before and he does feats he did not prior and he still did not feel pain and shit hence the limiter. But fine http://readberserk.com/chapter/berserk-chapter-315/ another fight. Point out where he broke limbs and bled? Oh wait ya litterally cant.

Guts takes this by far better skill and hand to hand combat not jobbing and holding back no limitation from pain far better ap which would allow him to nearly kill within one blow and durability which ken would fail on breaking. Also provide evidence on him playing keep away for an entire week and not letting an opponent get within range and a human one at that. Excluding the fact berserker armor would not just attack without being within range anyway.
 
Funny how all the fights with ken just boil down "nah uh hes fast" and "ya cant hit him".


Hell did ya even post him doing what ya claim he can? Or anything guts had not fought and won.

A few examples of omen instinct would be nice my man.
 
> Can't even see because of mud in his eyes-> Backflips around the room dodging all the guy's attacks anyway

>Doging Eto's attacks multiple times

>Casually jumping over Jason's attacks multiple times

> Perfectly deflects attacks coming from behind him without even looking

He wasn't even trying to kill the "jackass" above. Other fights in the series have him making use of his kagune and keeping distance a lot more. Like he did against Jaso (where he's keeping to the air and attacking with long Kagune tentacles, Serpent (where he creates a massive blade to attack with, and uses tentacles from afar), Eto (where he stays back until he gets chanceto obliterate her with Kagune from multiple angles), Arima (where he attacks from a distance with the Kagune, throws cages of Kagune across the field, can attack from beneath the ground , and can trick his opponents with talking kagune as diversions)

I read the entire sea god fight. But when it's already been established how the Berserker armour works and that ignoring your limits causes damage, not seeing that established again is just the author not wanting to repeat himself.

Kaneki doesn't job, his skill is really not that much better, Kaneki doesn't give a shit about pain either (just watch this), the AP difference isn't actually enough to oneshot, Kaneki doesn't need to run for an entire week when he can just climb up a 300m tall tower and take a breather and a snack while Berserker Guts wonders how he's going to get up.
 
Cool now how about when he not a billion times faster?

Dodgeing but nothing major man.

He was kicking that dudes ass while decent nothing guts would fail on.

The Jason fight is actually an example of him being way closer than need be from what i just watched.

The one actually a decent example but he just outright stood there.

Half the shit on the one with arima would fail as guts would just plow through that shit. .

Almost entirely had him just standing around with kagune (guts would just pummel and tear apart man)or when he did move and kagune he was within actual close range and faster than the opponent . He may just hold his blade out and run directly at him as the kagune would lack ap for doing any decent form of damage. Problem with that man being he took litterally no damage and was completely fine after he done fighting the pirates. Just for an example. The statement had outright been proven wrong plenty. Mostly from fighting and outright being fine after with no damage on guts at the point or ya just excluding half the manga for ya argument man?.

Didnt say he did only that he would probably underestimate guts as ya said he can diffentiate ghoul and nonghoul. Would he go all out on a NONGHOUL?

The ap litterally above what he would need. Even just double would allow almost complete overpowering man. And then what? Stand on a tower for a week? Bfr himself. And just a pointer but while he fights almost akin with an outright he would still react and only take blows for when that would allow him ta counter and get within range. Also he does have a sword he can jab and jump off or litterally just climb with his fist.

Ya forget guts had trained entire life. Defeated army and experienced superhuman general while just having minimal effort needed. First mortal that even wounded zodd over a century and landed a blow on apostle zodd. Year of murdering for a night and only monsters at that man. Fought zodd on equal footing and even outlasted him and landed more attacks even without environmental which zodd felt he needed apostle form and even praised guts on doing that and his outright skill of fighting. Overwhelmed and defeated grunbeld and damaged apostle man.

But do tell what an decent ap would mean.
 
Speed equalisation just makes it easier for the more agile person to dodge. And we've already established that Kaneki is more agile. Guts also only has one useful method of attack, the Dragonslayer. And it's really easy to see what direction a giant sword is going to come from.

I don't see Kaneki getting hit by the Dragonslayer, ever, and he can regenerate from anything else.

Here's another showing of Kaneki screwing people over from dozens of metres away
 
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