Guts (Berserk) Vs Saber (Fate)

[Sage_God_Slayer]

Soul attacks are nothing new for Fate, Arturia has resistence to things like that unless the weapon can get through her armor, she can also boosts her own stats with Prana burst. Excalibur destroys even down to atoms, she used it to kill Caster's monster which could revive from a single cell. Avalon can regenerate even multiple damaged organs and blood vessels and that's when it isn't even in Arturia, the reason she basically never has it in any of the routes in F/SN and in F/Z is because she would be extremely hard to beat since it would also replenish her prana. Also activating Avalon carries her to the land of the fairies which resides in the 6D where she can just heal and come out of after and begin to attack Guts again and again. With a small blast from Excalibur she was able to do heavy damage to Berserker in F/SN and might have killed him once, all of which happened when she was low on prana because of the lack of Avalon and Shirou as her master, with Avalon she can use way bigger and stronger blasts and cover her sword with the prana those blasts and swings would cut straight through Guts since she was able to pull of a city++ blast when not even at full power and could match Berserker who is a mountain buster by VN quotes.

 

[ScarletFirefly]

@ AMM yes she can predict enemies faster than her, this was proven in her fight against Kojiro. You can always read up on it, I'm on mobile so can't explain properly.

Also people voting with one word can count as long as they vote in favor of a certain character fot reasons already stated by other voters.

 

[Reynald2708]

One more thing, dragon slayer was once worn out and has it's own durability, Excaliblast might destroy it.

 

[Austrian-Man-Meat]

@ AMM yes she can predict enemies faster than her, this was proven in her fight against Kojiro. You can always read up on it, I'm on mobile so can't explain properly.

Ok, we're getting somewhere here. Could you please provide the scans or something when you have the time?

 

[ScarletFirefly]

@AMM I won't be able to provide any evidence for a while, since I don't have access to my computer. You can look up Saber's fight against Kojiro though. Also she demonstrated the precog during her fight with Lancer in Fate/Zero. You also can read the wikia entry on it, it explains it fairly well. Basically it gives her a mental image of what is going to happen.

 

[VircaTheDestroyer]

Yeah when others have stated what we wanted to say, it's kind of tedious to see multiple people saying the same thing.


Her precog does indeed help against faster oponents

 

[A_Sword_Dancer]

Avalon is a 6D protection and activating it also regenerates saber to full power. It's like having a second chance at the battle while also negating the attack the enemy was using at the time. Guts has no such second chance, and will not be able to one shot while aiming at only the head and trying to make a linear attack through enemy precognition.

It won't take more than one or two exchanges for saber to realize that a melee battle won't work and activate her swords aoe strike mode. If she jumps in the air while preparing it, guts has no choice but to follow her in a super linear path and get smacked down or try and run from it which he should have a very hard time doing due to the speed and aoe plus precog to tell her where he will most likely go.

 

[A_Sword_Dancer]

https://youtu.be/v0R_CdqHtM8?t=2m

Watch from 2-2:30 to see an example of what her precognition looks like when something surprising comes up. Note that she still manages to defend against the attack and this shocks assasssin.

The reason this attack was hard to recognize and defend against is because it was a 'multidimensional refraction phenominon' - it was actually a sort of 'composite attack' of three assassins from parallel dimensions who swung slightly differently, creating a multidirectional strike that should be all but impossible to block without prior knowledge.

 

[A_Hero_Long_Forgotten]

Austrian-Man-Meat wrote: "I vote for Saber."

"I think Saber got this. Guts would go down as if he were Berserker (FATE) lol"

"Arturia has stats over him plus Excalibur can one shot Guts"

The following votes have a blatent lack of explanation/reasoning (and not looking at prior arguments made by other users) and therefore should not be counted, I also remember a bunch of users who seemed to of looked over Dragonslayers soul harming capabilities but I am unsure where those are.


(I don't know how to properly use quoting on mobile so I just separated what AMM said and what I said)


Agreed. I didn't want to count them but I didn't know if I was allowed to exclude their votes.

 

[Sage_God_Slayer]

Uhhh I expanded on my intial statement : "Arturia has stats over him plus Excalibur can one shot Guts"

with this : "Soul attacks are nothing new for Fate, Arturia has resistence to things like that unless the weapon can get through her armor, she can also boosts her own stats with Prana burst. Excalibur destroys even down to atoms, she used it to kill Caster's monster which could revive from a single cell. Avalon can regenerate even multiple damaged organs and blood vessels and that's when it isn't even in Arturia, the reason she basically never has it in any of the routes in F/SN and in F/Z is because she would be extremely hard to beat since it would also replenish her prana. Also activating Avalon carries her to the land of the fairies which resides in the 6D where she can just heal and come out of after and begin to attack Guts again and again. With a small blast from Excalibur she was able to do heavy damage to Berserker in F/SN and might have killed him once, all of which happened when she was low on prana because of the lack of Avalon and Shirou as her master, with Avalon she can use way bigger and stronger blasts and cover her sword with the prana those blasts and swings would cut straight through Guts since she was able to pull of a city++ blast when not even at full power and could match Berserker who is a mountain buster by VN quotes."

I don't see why vote would not be counted.

 

[ScarletFirefly]

Shouldn't Saber have in her arsenal her spear Rhongomyniad? She used that to defeat the evil dragon Vortigern that could swallow the holy light of both Excalibur and Excibur Gallatine of Sir Gawain. The dragon was the manifestation of Britain itself, it's neck was bigger than a big citadel and he could eradicate whole armies with a swipe. Edit: she also used it to kill her son/daughter Mordred because the spear could go through any kind of defense.

 

[Sage_God_Slayer]

Shouldn't Saber have in her arsenal her spear Rhongomyniad? She used that to defeat the evil dragon Vortigern that could swallow the holy light of both Excalibur and Excibur Gallatine of Sir Gawain. The dragon was the manifestation of Britain itself, it's neck was bigger than a big citadel and he could eradicate whole armies with a swipe.
Edit: she also used it to kill her son/daughter Mordred because the spear could go through any kind of defense.

That makes it way more in her favour if we use her full arsenal

 

[Talonmask]

Saber can activate it at least 3-4 times before going out of prana, though I agree compared to Alter that's nothing since Alter has nigh infinite supply of prana.

For anyone counting, the votes as of now are:

Votes for Guts (6): Australian Man Meat, Talonmask, Zianmoon2, LTB2000, RadicalMrR, Super Goku Roku

Votes for Saber (8): ScarletFirefly, ShinyMagicalGirl, A Sword Dancer, Reynald2708, Sage God Slayer, Xmark12, KamiYasha, VircaTheDestroyer

EDIT: Grammatical errors.

I never voted, so that's 5 for Guts.

 

[ThisIsMySwagPack]

"I vote for Saber."
"I think Saber got this. Guts would go down as if he were Berserker (FATE) lol"

"Arturia has stats over him plus Excalibur can one shot Guts"

The following votes have a blatent lack of explanation/reasoning (and not looking at prior arguments made by other users) and therefore should not be counted, I also remember a bunch of users who seemed to of looked over Dragonslayers soul harming capabilities but I am unsure where those are.

The point of the matter is this, how exactly does Saber's pre cognition work? And would it be able to predict someone much faster than she is?

There is no need to repeat what other users already posted for Saber. Excalibur, Avalon and Instinct is what gives her the win here.

 

[ScarletFirefly]

@Talonmask: Sorry mate, seems I misunderstood, thanks for correcting me.

@AMM: Here you have Saber's instinct at work versus Zero Lancer, also the fight versus Kojiro that A Sword Dancer already provided. You can always look up the wikia for more info.

After removing TalonMask's vote because I misunderstood him, the votes stand like following:

Votes for Guts (5): Australian Man Meat, Zianmoon2, LTB2000, RadicalMrR, Super Goku Roku

Votes for Saber (9): ScarletFirefly, ShinyMagicalGirl, A Sword Dancer, Reynald2708, Sage God Slayer, Xmark12, KamiYasha, VircaTheDestroyer, ThisIsMySwagPack(already voted before but now provided the argument why so I added him)

As of now one combatant has at least 7 votes and 3 or more votes than the other, so if I remember correctly, there is a 24 hours waiting period before requesting the thread to be added to the respective victories and losses, so as to let people a chance to vote.

EDIT: Added clarification.

 

[Austrian-Man-Meat]

I concede, Saber has far too many advantages vs Guts such as pre cognition which will block out Guts only strong point.

 

[ScarletFirefly]

I concede, Saber has far too many advantages vs Guts such as pre cognition which will block out Guts only strong point.

Damn, I've rarely seen people concede before. Massive respect to you mate.

Also off topic: There's a Guts versus Zabuza thread, and I'd appreciate your opinion since you know a lot about Guts.

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

is there even a point to this thread tho

cuz saber is like tier 7-B ot 7-A

while guts is only 8-A

 

[ShinyMagicalGirl]

is there even a point to this thread tho
cuz saber is like tier 7-B ot 7-A

while guts is only 8-A

Yes there was a point because Guts has higher combat and reaction speed than Arturia. Also, Guts could oneshot Saber with his soul-damaging Dragonslayer.

 

[Super_Goku_Roku]

I still think Guts would win.


He is way faster for Saber´s cocky attitute and lackluster precog to match up

 

[A_Sword_Dancer]

I still think Guts would win.

He is way faster for Saber´s cocky attitute and lackluster precog to match up

Not sure where the character attacks on saber come from or why you think they're a valuable contribution. She's probably one of the characters most likely to take any random opponant seriously for the sake of honor, and her combat precognition is a definate advantage that you can't just handwave away - especially when guts has to aim for her head in order to do any damage at all so the area she has to defend is already tiny to begin with.

 

[Xmark12]

Cocky? I think you've got the wrong word there.

She'll fight for honor, she won't use any dirty tactics. I think that's what you're trying to say.

 

[Super_Goku_Roku]

Guts has the advantage in a fight then.


He will do literally anything for the win.

 

[A_Sword_Dancer]

That doesn't help him in the fight at all. It's not like he gets to bring a hostage or something.

tbh it sounds like you're just fishing for reasons to make guts win.

 

[Super_Goku_Roku]

Guts is still faster, and the Berserker armor would keep him alive from basic attacks.

 

[Xmark12]

Precog almost negates his speed, and the Berserker armor wouldn't help him against an Excaliblast, something that Guts never tanked before.

It does sound like you're fishing for reasons tbh.

 

[Minstry_of_pain]

^Yes Xmark I would love for you to explain why Lancer completly handed her ass on a silver platter. When this supposed precog allowed his Nobel Phantasam to completly blind side her. Or do you want to admit it's very inconstitant for pratical combat against someone whos more faster and skilled than her.

 

[ScarletFirefly]

^Yes Xmark I would love for you to explain why Lancer completly handed her ass on a silver platter. When this supposed precog allowed his Nobel Phantasam to completly blind side her. Or do you want to admit it's very inconstitant for pratical combat against someone whos more faster and skilled than her.

Lancer had an advantage in speed over her, that's true. His Agility stat is A+, while Saber's under Kiritsugu was A. However, you couldn't be more wrong as to why Lancer had an "advantage" over her. She predicted his attacks correctly, but she didn't take into account the fact that Lancer Gáe Dearg goes through magical enhancements, such as her armor, which is why she got hit. This doesn't change the fact that Lancer was feeling overwhelmed under her strikes. He said it himself that he was lucky that the battle ended quickly or he would've been a goner.

Also if you watched the video I linked earlier, Lancer's Gáe Buidhe would have gone through her neck if she didn't predict it, and instead nicked her hand.

Another example was when her instinct allowed her to evade F/SN Lancer's Gae Bolg, which was a predetermined strike, the spear would go through your heart before it was even launched. And Saber evaded that with minimal damage.

Also you have the evasion of Assassin's Tsubame Gaeshi, a Multi-Dimensional Refraction Phenomenon that could not be evaded by no means as it was 3 different strikes from parallel dimensions, and Saber evaded that with minimal damage to her armor, also she identified a weak spot on the technique.

I feel like I'm repeating the same thing over and over again and you guys come up with the same arguments that were already debunked earlier in the debate,

 

[ThisIsMySwagPack]

^Yes Xmark I would love for you to explain why Lancer completly handed her ass on a silver platter. When this supposed precog allowed his Nobel Phantasam to completly blind side her. Or do you want to admit it's very inconstitant for pratical combat against someone whos more faster and skilled than her.

Lancer had an advantage in speed over her, that's true. His Agility stat is A+, while Saber's under Kiritsugu was A. However, you couldn't be more wrong as to why Lancer had an "advantage" over her. She predicted his attacks correctly, but she didn't take into account the fact that Lancer Gáe Dearg goes through magical enhancements, such as her armor, which is why she got hit. This doesn't change the fact that Lancer was feeling overwhelmed under her strikes. He said it himself that he was lucky that the battle ended quickly or he would've been a goner.
Also if you watched the video I linked earlier, Lancer's Gáe Buidhe would have gone through her neck if she didn't predict it, and instead nicked her hand.

Another example was when her instinct allowed her to evade F/SN Lancer's Gae Bolg, which was a predetermined strike, the spear would go through your heart before it was even launched. And Saber evaded that with minimal damage.

Also you have the evasion of Assassin's Tsubame Gaeshi, a Multi-Dimensional Refraction Phenomenon that could not be evaded by no means as it was 3 different strikes from parallel dimensions, and Saber evaded that with minimal damage to her armor, also she identified a weak spot on the technique.

I feel like I'm repeating the same thing over and over again and you guys come up with the same arguments that were already debunked earlier in the debate,

1. "She could not argue back to Lancer's taunts. After about thirty exchanges, she still had not managed to hit her opponent even once."

"Just as he had said, the spear strikes suddenly gained in vigor, the attacks more severe and not vain anymore. Having certified the distance Saber's blade could go, he made no mistake in his aiming."

"Lancer's words were resurrected in her mind. "That was my plan."

"Saber saw it at that time: Lancer's threatening smile when he was sure of his victory. The glint in his eyes had spoken more than his words. "I will strike through your imprudence..." "

I just read their fight again to make sure, but he never stated he was overwhelmed. In fact, he himself was always giving Saber a hard time, and she only survived because of her Instinct.

2. Her Instinct didn't help her survive Gae Bolg. She survived Gae Bolg because of her Luck.

3. "Three arcing blades close in on the enemy from all sides, allowing no chance for defense or evasion."

"She has experienced the move before.

…The previous one only had an arc to surround his enemy and a vertical slash. That is why she was able to avoid it and live up to this day."

"But the real technique has three slashes."

So, Sasaki didn't use the full potential of Tsubame Gaeshi the first time, that's why she survived.

"……! So this is why you damaged your own weapon…!?"

The second time he damaged his own weapon and that's probably the reason why Tsubame Gaeshi had a weak spot because there were so many statements that glorify the technique.

 

[ScarletFirefly]

1. Seems I was wrong about Diarmuid feeling overwhelmed. Still doesn't change the fact that he didn't manage to hit her even though he had a higher agility. Her instinct saved her once against Gáe Dearg and once against Gáe Buidhe, she did take damage because of lack of information on the red spear and the yellow would have killed her if it wasn't for her instinct to dodge at the last second.

2. A combination of the Luck stat and her instinct allowed her to survive. Her luck stat under Emiya Shirou was B. I believe you need more than that to counter Gae Bolg.

3. Wasn't aware that Kojirou used two slashes the first time. Would you mind saying why? Can't rememeber the VN well enough, in the anime there were 3 slashes the first time. Also the opening on Tsubame Gaeshi wouldn't have been possible for another servant to spot.

EDIT: Also forgot to mention the time when Saber fought Soichiro Kuzuki. His Snake fighting style was very unpredictable and Saber couldn't protect herself against it and she relied in her instinct to dodge the decisive blows. Although it failed her in the end because Kuzuki was reinforced with Magic by Caster who was drawing magic from all over Fuyuki. Also Gut's fighting style is very predictable and straightforward, relying on brute force and she shouldn't have troubles predicting it.

 

[ThisIsMySwagPack]

1. Seems I was wrong about Diarmuid feeling overwhelmed. Still doesn't change the fact that he didn't manage to hit her even though he had a higher agility. Her instinct saved her once against Gáe Dearg and once against Gáe Buidhe, she did take damage because of lack of information on the red spear and the yellow would have killed her if it wasn't for her instinct to dodge at the last second.
2. A combination of the Luck stat and her instinct allowed her to survive. Her luck stat under Emiya Shirou was B. I believe you need more than that to counter Gae Bolg.

3. Wasn't aware that Kojirou used two slashes the first time. Would you mind saying why? Can't rememeber the VN well enough, in the anime there were 3 slashes the first time. Also the opening on Tsubame Gaeshi wouldn't have been possible for another servant to spot.

Her Instinct is still on a level of a plot armor. I just wanted to correct a few things in case someone wants to nitpick.

2. It was never specified, but the higher the Luck the greater chances you have of surviving.

I think it's like EX= 100% and E= 10%. At least that's the way I see it.

3. It doesn't say why he used 2 slashes instead of 3, at least I can't find it.

Yes, she spotted the opening because of her Instinct.

"She gulps. There is a flash as small as a grain of sand. She does not think about what it is, nor if it is correct. She risks everything she has on her instinct."

"Even though the attack still chips off her armor, Saber curls up and flies through the opening. An exquisite skill that is only possible with her precognition----her great instinct."

 

[ScarletFirefly]

"She gulps. There is a flash as small as a grain of sand. She does not think about what it is, nor if it is correct. She risks everything she has on her instinct."

"Even though the attack still chips off her armor, Saber curls up and flies through the opening. An exquisite skill that is only possible with her precognition----her great instinct."

Thanks, was skimming through the material and couldn't find it for the life of me

Also edited the post by adding the part with Kuzuki in case you missed it.

 

[ThisIsMySwagPack]

"Saber does not know, of course…

That there is a technique to stop an enemy's blade with bare hands, and that there are experts today who actually use it."

"The things aimed accurately at her vital points are human fists."

Kuzuki's suicidal style combined with the fact that a human is capable of fighting a servant was an incredible shock. Also Kuzuki was constantly aiming for the vital points, making her unable to even think properly. She was able to dodge attacks via her Instinct even though her mind was blank. Basically her body will always try to survive.

 

[A_Sword_Dancer]

Fate Zero lancer had the (true) eye of the mind skill, which is similar to sabers precognition instinct, which allowed him to fight precog with precog, and combined with a preset trap was how he was able to catch her off guard.

 

[Cropfist]

Saber for reasons above.

 

[Zero_Omega_EX]

Saber - Equal sword skills( i think), Precognition(accurate predictions of Guts attacks), superior strength speed and destructive power, conceptual nuke, passive Regenerationn and activated avalon gives immunity, invulnerability and untouchability.

 

[Xmark12]

Saber - Equal sword skills( i think), Precognition(accurate predictions of Guts attacks), superior strength speed and destructive power, conceptual nuke, passive Regenerationn and activated avalon gives immunity, invulnerability and untouchability.

Some of those arguments have already been countered here, read the other comments.

=V

 

[ScarletFirefly]

Can a Mod lock this one up? This has been concluded for quite a while.

 

[Battlemania]

yeah....someone needs to close this, since I think there was an update on Saber (by the looks of it)