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The problem there would orobably one be can grimmon effect all of a the numerous minds at once ? And can he mind hax things he wouldnt be aware are there .
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Grimmon vs Ultimate Novel Kars
- Thread starter PaChi2
- Start date
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So then, what is stopping Grimmon from Mind haxing the Stands if they so wish not to body hop? Once he gets control over Kars, he would learn of the Stand's existence and mind hax them to keep them in like.
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Because grimmon cant mind hax the amount of minds within kars all at once ?
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Depends, your average city can have thousands of people in it. And Kars is only "implied" to have one of every species correct? What does species refer to? How does that help? What, will he suddenly have the mind of a dog? What will that do? Even then, it will only take a matter of seconds to get all the minds in multiple waves. The moment he mindhaxes the main Kars, he will know that the otherminds are there and begin mindhaxing them group after group. Not to mention he could just flat out destroy all Kars' data permanently. Chrono DSR would kill the stands as well.
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What. Species. Composite organism tier of species .
A few thousands and all soecies that have exusted are far apart .
Unless ya want to go the route if "countless" doing what was heavily implied and the only actual explanation would be optimal dragon .
A few thousands and all soecies that have exusted are far apart .
Unless ya want to go the route if "countless" doing what was heavily implied and the only actual explanation would be optimal dragon .
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What? You are not being coherent. Explain this.
Does he have the minds of all species, or just the DNA of all species?
What are you even saying?
Does he have the minds of all species, or just the DNA of all species?
What are you even saying?
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Kars has "counltess" minds within him. Heavily implied as well as being the only logical explanation that he has a mind for each species on earth. The amount of species that are on earth and were on earth outnumbered thousands by a hilarious degree man .
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>Heavily impliedTheJ-ManRequiem said:
A single line not even talking about mind discs.
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Oh boy, oh boy. No, he doesn't have the mind of every species on Earth. At least, not supported enough to assume he does.
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Look, I need to sleep. I am barely staying awake as is. I will pick this up tomorrow. Maybe you two can leave some stuff explaining everything so that a guy who knows nothing about Kars can understand.
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Lephyr you do realize mind and soul discs come in pair. He was talking about discs what form doesnt matter .
And its the only reason why kars would have more than one disc unless he has a bad case of scizophrenia like diavolo .
And its the only reason why kars would have more than one disc unless he has a bad case of scizophrenia like diavolo .
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This is true, however. Although, couldn't Grimmon mindhax them anywa-- ah, I see later that this was mentioned. Good.Sir Ovens said:
Hmm, tho, assuming Grimmon can't mindhax all of Kars' minds (don't see why he couldn't, honestly) the moment he do his stuff, KQ can BTD at that exact moment.
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Mate was that a pun ?.
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@J-man
Except we know an even easier and actually stated explanation: He's simply the Ultimate Lifeform.
Except we know an even easier and actually stated explanation: He's simply the Ultimate Lifeform.
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And what would that entail lephyr? Whats a established key trait of being ultimate ?.
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Sorry, but don't go there. As I have stated in the past, I won't go and say with certainty that Kars has a mind for every species as that would be dishonest. The only line that implies said stuff only talked about stands, something actually supported within the novel to be true: he is the only one capable of having more than one stand. The explanation for it? Because he simply is the Ultimate Lifeform. As the mind-for-species (that sounds like a legit cool power, lol) stuff is simply speculation, I, at least, will not argue in favor of it in a debate.
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Go where? The key aspect and attributes of his state of existence?
Actubthe line talked about stand and by proxy soul discs which dio and enrico confirmed come in a dual pair from stone ocean .
This isnt even heavy speculation. Actually would debate its ocams razer .
Actubthe line talked about stand and by proxy soul discs which dio and enrico confirmed come in a dual pair from stone ocean .
This isnt even heavy speculation. Actually would debate its ocams razer .
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It is speculation when the line simply says "Everyone has their limits. Can yours contain the world?"
Which is attributed to stands, not minds. And it is confirmed that only Kars can have more than one stand, no such thing for mind. The only actual explanation within the narrative? Because he's the Ultimate Lifeform.
That is it.
Which is attributed to stands, not minds. And it is confirmed that only Kars can have more than one stand, no such thing for mind. The only actual explanation within the narrative? Because he's the Ultimate Lifeform.
That is it.
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Thats the problem. Youre excluding points and evidence from manga.
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>From manga
>Talking about the novel that contradicts said manga on every page
>Talking about the novel that contradicts said manga on every page
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Thats false. The manga is canon to the dubious at best novel despite being npncanon . Although the reverse usnt true.
All evidence within the manga is canon untill the point is proven false .
Otherwuse may as well assume part four and five and stone ocean happened completely differently and kars was launched into space by joseph tying and putting him on a rocket because the volcano wasbt mentioned .
All evidence within the manga is canon untill the point is proven false .
Otherwuse may as well assume part four and five and stone ocean happened completely differently and kars was launched into space by joseph tying and putting him on a rocket because the volcano wasbt mentioned .
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"Differing opinions, differing conclusions."
As I like to say.
Funny enough, that is all still pointless. Doesn't stop Grimmon from mindhaxxing.
As I like to say.
Funny enough, that is all still pointless. Doesn't stop Grimmon from mindhaxxing.
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But that does . Grimmon CAN mindhax the point us how many can he haxed.
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All ovo
Edit: Well... I'm kinda assuming he has a high number because it's a digimon, lol. For that we'll have to wait for Dragon.
Edit: Well... I'm kinda assuming he has a high number because it's a digimon, lol. For that we'll have to wait for Dragon.
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Which from that a debate arises .
He obviously can mind hax the point is can he mind hax all of kars at once ? .
He obviously can mind hax the point is can he mind hax all of kars at once ? .
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By the way, Dragon, this sorta won't work.Dragonmasterxyz said:
DIO, after having Kars' powers, survived the destruction of his soul. While I don't like powerscaling abilities, the fact that this was done only after obtaining Kars' powers speaks for itself.
Don't know about mind, as that one wasn't shown in the novel.
The matter part also don't know because of how Killer Queen works.
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I, for one, will have to wait for Dragon to give a proper vote.
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I should properly explain that Chrono DSR per this blog would fit into Offensive Information Manipulation as it degrades and destroys data. https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/U...mon_and_Verse_Equalization_and_Combat_Mindset
Mind, Body/Matter, Soul, Energy is simply Data to Digimon.
Here is information from the Yhwach vs MetalPhantomon thread that may come in handy for understanding the mechanics.
"EVERYTHING is formed from Binary Code 0s and 1s, or codes that are derived from binary. The whole constitution of a Digicore is literally a Program of 0s and 1s that constitutes the body that we know as a Digimon. Physical body, souls, minds, etc. are just data arrangements that fulfill a Digicore Programming.
The Physical Body we see of a Digimon is its protective barrier, it is an arrangement of 0s and 1s that protects the Digicore from being hit directly. In other words, it is a barrier of 0s and 1s that protects the Main Essence.
Think of a computer. In it there are several programs can have different extensions like .exe, .rar, .zip, .torrent, etc. Even though they all have different compositions and arrangements, they are all only 0s and 1s.
Even though they all have different compositions and arrangements, they are all only 0s and 1s. So unless a program has a standard Delete protection (like Protected Programs for Administrators) no matter the extension or schedule of it, it will be deleted. Matter, souls, minds, time, etc. are all only 0s and 1s. Data that performs different functions depending on the Digicore programming.
The problem of trying to analyze Digimon like any other work is to try to equate Data with a composition of the Real World, since it is not that. Data is a universal composition, it can be anything depending on their programming.
It does not have data with composition equal to matter or mind or soul, etc. Data are a universal thing, they make up everything that can exist (That is why the Real World is part of the Digital World, not the opposite because the universal contains the particular and not the particular contains the universal).
When something from the Real World is transformed into Data, depending of course on the programming that they are following, the result is simply data. When Takumi had his Mind detached from his physical body the composition of the Takumi Digital Body interacted like any kind of data and not only with Mind Data.
For the Real World there is a clear division. Mind, body and soul are different things in the Real World, their compositions are completely different. In the Digital World, all of them are just Data.
The reason the Digimon affects the mind of humans in Cyber Sleuth is not because a specific Digimon group has this power, but rather because the Digimon are naturally beings of 0s and 1s and can affect Mind Data because Mind Data is just another type of Data.
For the Digimon there really is no difference to them. There is Wireframe that protects Digicore. While Wireframe is not destroyed, Digicore can not be affected unless a Digimon has the power to bypass Wireframe. This is equivalent to the Firewall of a Digimon, it protects Digicore from being affected directly.
A human on the other hand changes from set of particular constitutions to a single universal constitution. In Digimon Story Cyber Sleuth Humans usually just send their Souls and Minds to the Network to create a Digital Body. If this digital body is destroyed then the Physical Body that is left will lose its Soul and Mind. The Digimon interacted directly with the EDEN Avatars, even though they were only bodies that the Mind Data took shape.
As Mind Data is just Data then a Hacker could control this data and thus influence their actual bodies. For this there was the Firewall, it protected the Humans from having their data affected in a free way by a hacker.
What a Digimon does is simply break the Firewall. By doing this a hacker can freely affect the data that was previously protected. And likewise the Digimo can freely affect the actual Data of a Human Being, because the barrier that left those 0s and 1s protected from outside influence was destroyed.
"But Firewall is something physical"
This is literally proof that the correct Digimon analysis is still not being done. The idea of "Physical" in Digimon can not be used to say that something is not the mind or the soul of something. Hisyaryumon has in his hands the souls of Kinryü (Golden Dragon) and Kakuryü (Horned Dragon) and even so they are things as if they were physical objects, he even uses as balls to throw at the opponents. The Four Holy Beast have their 12 Digicores around and they are physical, Gennai even held one in the hand at Zero Two. Digimon like Skull Satamon, Skull Mammon and Candmon all have their Digimon exposed, and are totally physical. Heck, Gravimon could regenerate itself as long as its Digicore still existed. Taiki took the Digicore from Gravimon with his hands.
But that is not because Digicore does not contain the soul, it contains as well as everything that exists from a Digimon within its schedule. It turns out that the Digicore is still only 0s and 1s, and unless a Digimon has the natural ability not to be touched normally by any conventional Date then it will be affected.
And humans face the same thing against a Digimon or any naturally Digital being. As shown in Digimon Universe Appli Monsters if Humans are destroyed in the form of Data, then all their natural existence will also be destroyed (And this is said by a work that specified that everything is transformed into data, even the soul or the mind).
And that goes even outside of the Digital World. Beings like Vamdemon or Wizardmon use Magic (That's a high-level programming language, then not really something magical) in humans even with them in the Real World and even then they are affected. Vegimon was in EDEN and still managed to control humans who were in the Real World while controlling their Mental Data.
The reason why Digimon has shown to be able to control or destroy minds and souls of humans is not because they have this specific ability, but because all this to the Digimon is just another type of Data and Data interact with Data in the same way as any other type of Data unless it has protection. Heck, Pete was the soul of an animal that was caught by a Digital Wave and transformed into a Wanyamon that was touched by any other Data being within history. And we have the example of Mirei who was a Human who was sucked into a black hole created during Project Vitium, her body was destroyed, but now she exists as a data ghost within the Digital Realms and she is tangible to any Digital being. Obviously it would not be if she returned to her Physical World composition. (That's why she can not leave places like the Digital World, at least under normal conditions. The strange events in Digimon Story Cyber Sleuth that were allowing the coming of Data beings to the Real World made it possible for her to go to the Real World).
Wanting to separate different types of Data and place divisions like those in the Real World does not make sense because the Digital World is not the Real World, the Digital World is a world that transcends the Real World and everything in the Real World is actually a part of the composition of the Digital World (This still fits into the explanation of the Digital World being the equivalent of the World of Ideas).
Data is something universal (Everything is reduced to Data). Souls, matter, mind, and anything else in the Physical World are just particular things. Something Particular only affects something Particular (Physical Matter affects Physical Matter), but something Universal (Data) affect something Universal (Data).
In fact, in Digimon there are Digimon that would be like something equivalent to something of the Real World (For example MoonMille and Death-X-Mon that are for the Digimon what something Imaterial is for the Physical World), but these are examples of isolated cases within the franchise.
Based mainly on what the latest information on Digimon has come about (as in Xros Wars, Digimon Story Cyber Sleuth, Appli Monsters, Re: Digitize or Next 0rder) the structure of what is currently the Digital World and the Data is much more complete and than in the past. Obviously you will not be able to find many of these things in older works within the franchise, this is information that was developed just now."
We also have a detail blog on this as well, along with many other blogs explaining Digimon mechanics and feats in detail. I also decided to move that comment over here as it is more relevant than above.
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/U...Franchise:_Data,_this_subject_is_not_over_yet
Right now I am still having trouble understanding whether Kars has multiple minds or not. Also what happens when said minds take over? If say the mind of a dog takes over, does he start acting like a Dog? This situation seems like an impasse between you two, so I don't know what's what. So all I can do is show you how Digimon interact with data until I get the answer I need.
Grimmon could mind hax an entire city full of Digimon and humans along with Digimon who are nonexistent and have them under his complete control.
Mind, Body/Matter, Soul, Energy is simply Data to Digimon.
| It is also known as the "Necromancer" due to its summoning and manipulation of the reluctant souls (residual data) of annihilated Digimo |
Here is information from the Yhwach vs MetalPhantomon thread that may come in handy for understanding the mechanics.
| The grim reaper of the Digital World, it harvests configuration data in place of souls! |
The Physical Body we see of a Digimon is its protective barrier, it is an arrangement of 0s and 1s that protects the Digicore from being hit directly. In other words, it is a barrier of 0s and 1s that protects the Main Essence.
Think of a computer. In it there are several programs can have different extensions like .exe, .rar, .zip, .torrent, etc. Even though they all have different compositions and arrangements, they are all only 0s and 1s.
Even though they all have different compositions and arrangements, they are all only 0s and 1s. So unless a program has a standard Delete protection (like Protected Programs for Administrators) no matter the extension or schedule of it, it will be deleted. Matter, souls, minds, time, etc. are all only 0s and 1s. Data that performs different functions depending on the Digicore programming.
The problem of trying to analyze Digimon like any other work is to try to equate Data with a composition of the Real World, since it is not that. Data is a universal composition, it can be anything depending on their programming.
It does not have data with composition equal to matter or mind or soul, etc. Data are a universal thing, they make up everything that can exist (That is why the Real World is part of the Digital World, not the opposite because the universal contains the particular and not the particular contains the universal).
When something from the Real World is transformed into Data, depending of course on the programming that they are following, the result is simply data. When Takumi had his Mind detached from his physical body the composition of the Takumi Digital Body interacted like any kind of data and not only with Mind Data.
For the Real World there is a clear division. Mind, body and soul are different things in the Real World, their compositions are completely different. In the Digital World, all of them are just Data.
The reason the Digimon affects the mind of humans in Cyber Sleuth is not because a specific Digimon group has this power, but rather because the Digimon are naturally beings of 0s and 1s and can affect Mind Data because Mind Data is just another type of Data.
For the Digimon there really is no difference to them. There is Wireframe that protects Digicore. While Wireframe is not destroyed, Digicore can not be affected unless a Digimon has the power to bypass Wireframe. This is equivalent to the Firewall of a Digimon, it protects Digicore from being affected directly.
A human on the other hand changes from set of particular constitutions to a single universal constitution. In Digimon Story Cyber Sleuth Humans usually just send their Souls and Minds to the Network to create a Digital Body. If this digital body is destroyed then the Physical Body that is left will lose its Soul and Mind. The Digimon interacted directly with the EDEN Avatars, even though they were only bodies that the Mind Data took shape.
As Mind Data is just Data then a Hacker could control this data and thus influence their actual bodies. For this there was the Firewall, it protected the Humans from having their data affected in a free way by a hacker.
What a Digimon does is simply break the Firewall. By doing this a hacker can freely affect the data that was previously protected. And likewise the Digimo can freely affect the actual Data of a Human Being, because the barrier that left those 0s and 1s protected from outside influence was destroyed.
"But Firewall is something physical"
This is literally proof that the correct Digimon analysis is still not being done. The idea of "Physical" in Digimon can not be used to say that something is not the mind or the soul of something. Hisyaryumon has in his hands the souls of Kinryü (Golden Dragon) and Kakuryü (Horned Dragon) and even so they are things as if they were physical objects, he even uses as balls to throw at the opponents. The Four Holy Beast have their 12 Digicores around and they are physical, Gennai even held one in the hand at Zero Two. Digimon like Skull Satamon, Skull Mammon and Candmon all have their Digimon exposed, and are totally physical. Heck, Gravimon could regenerate itself as long as its Digicore still existed. Taiki took the Digicore from Gravimon with his hands.
But that is not because Digicore does not contain the soul, it contains as well as everything that exists from a Digimon within its schedule. It turns out that the Digicore is still only 0s and 1s, and unless a Digimon has the natural ability not to be touched normally by any conventional Date then it will be affected.
And humans face the same thing against a Digimon or any naturally Digital being. As shown in Digimon Universe Appli Monsters if Humans are destroyed in the form of Data, then all their natural existence will also be destroyed (And this is said by a work that specified that everything is transformed into data, even the soul or the mind).
And that goes even outside of the Digital World. Beings like Vamdemon or Wizardmon use Magic (That's a high-level programming language, then not really something magical) in humans even with them in the Real World and even then they are affected. Vegimon was in EDEN and still managed to control humans who were in the Real World while controlling their Mental Data.
The reason why Digimon has shown to be able to control or destroy minds and souls of humans is not because they have this specific ability, but because all this to the Digimon is just another type of Data and Data interact with Data in the same way as any other type of Data unless it has protection. Heck, Pete was the soul of an animal that was caught by a Digital Wave and transformed into a Wanyamon that was touched by any other Data being within history. And we have the example of Mirei who was a Human who was sucked into a black hole created during Project Vitium, her body was destroyed, but now she exists as a data ghost within the Digital Realms and she is tangible to any Digital being. Obviously it would not be if she returned to her Physical World composition. (That's why she can not leave places like the Digital World, at least under normal conditions. The strange events in Digimon Story Cyber Sleuth that were allowing the coming of Data beings to the Real World made it possible for her to go to the Real World).
Wanting to separate different types of Data and place divisions like those in the Real World does not make sense because the Digital World is not the Real World, the Digital World is a world that transcends the Real World and everything in the Real World is actually a part of the composition of the Digital World (This still fits into the explanation of the Digital World being the equivalent of the World of Ideas).
Data is something universal (Everything is reduced to Data). Souls, matter, mind, and anything else in the Physical World are just particular things. Something Particular only affects something Particular (Physical Matter affects Physical Matter), but something Universal (Data) affect something Universal (Data).
In fact, in Digimon there are Digimon that would be like something equivalent to something of the Real World (For example MoonMille and Death-X-Mon that are for the Digimon what something Imaterial is for the Physical World), but these are examples of isolated cases within the franchise.
Based mainly on what the latest information on Digimon has come about (as in Xros Wars, Digimon Story Cyber Sleuth, Appli Monsters, Re: Digitize or Next 0rder) the structure of what is currently the Digital World and the Data is much more complete and than in the past. Obviously you will not be able to find many of these things in older works within the franchise, this is information that was developed just now."
We also have a detail blog on this as well, along with many other blogs explaining Digimon mechanics and feats in detail. I also decided to move that comment over here as it is more relevant than above.
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/U...Franchise:_Data,_this_subject_is_not_over_yet
Right now I am still having trouble understanding whether Kars has multiple minds or not. Also what happens when said minds take over? If say the mind of a dog takes over, does he start acting like a Dog? This situation seems like an impasse between you two, so I don't know what's what. So all I can do is show you how Digimon interact with data until I get the answer I need.
Grimmon could mind hax an entire city full of Digimon and humans along with Digimon who are nonexistent and have them under his complete control.
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Kars Time Stops
Grimmon laughs and says "You call THAT a timestop?!" And time stops Kars
This is assuming he doesn't Mindhax Kars to oblivion.
Grimmon laughs and says "You call THAT a timestop?!" And time stops Kars
This is assuming he doesn't Mindhax Kars to oblivion.
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Grimmon doesn't Time Stop tho.
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Range on thats highly important. Kars has multiversal dimension hop .
Also no. Ultimate has a shit ton of minds . Literaly thats all . Its hinted at that (and supported by manga evidence ) numericaly amount of minds equals that of the species that exist on earth .
Also no. Ultimate has a shit ton of minds . Literaly thats all . Its hinted at that (and supported by manga evidence ) numericaly amount of minds equals that of the species that exist on earth .
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They are 4km away. Grimmon can still mind hax him from there. Is it in character for Kars to Dimension Hop. Not to mention Grimmon can cross dimensions as well. And yes, the Digimon verse is an Infinite upon infinite multiverse.
Again, this is something contested by Lephyr as well. I know nothing about Jojo or Kars so when I have conflicting information, I know not what to believe here.
Again, this is something contested by Lephyr as well. I know nothing about Jojo or Kars so when I have conflicting information, I know not what to believe here.
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I'd like to point out that potency on this site is judged by how many minds you can affect and yet we still say 2A is infinitely above that and thus the amount of minds is an utterly moot point.
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Talking about the data move dragon.
The problem with that us can he acurately pinpoint kars from an infinite amount of universes dragon .
Gargoyle me and ya both know that wont .work like that. Can grimmon effect kars? Yeah defintely obviously . The problem is the amount. Grimon would hax as many minds as he can the problem would be can he effect all the minds at once.
Youre essentially making a point of grimon can and would be capable of efecting an infinite amount if beings because he has high potency .
The problem with that us can he acurately pinpoint kars from an infinite amount of universes dragon .
Gargoyle me and ya both know that wont .work like that. Can grimmon effect kars? Yeah defintely obviously . The problem is the amount. Grimon would hax as many minds as he can the problem would be can he effect all the minds at once.
Youre essentially making a point of grimon can and would be capable of efecting an infinite amount if beings because he has high potency .
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Why would he need to when the Kars he is facing in only 4km away and he can control his mind with a thought? He doesn't need to take over the rest seeing as the main human mind is under his control. So this infinite amount of Kars business is irrelevant as the original Kars will already be under Grimmon's control. The other mind won't be able to over come the one mind Grimmon controls. Not to mention with Chrono DSR the number is irrelevant as guess what? The attack will just destroy any data it comes across. Meaning any bit of data in Kars is destroyed. End of story. I should not, Minhax and Chrono DSR are two different things.
As I posted above, Mind hax is mind control. Chrono DSR is Information Manipulation.
You also never answered my question.
As I posted above, Mind hax is mind control. Chrono DSR is Information Manipulation.
You also never answered my question.
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Because kars can dimension hop? Thats not how mind hax is treater here mate. Kars has numerous minds. Youre evidently misunderstanding and taking the "one per species" thing literaly. That only goes for the numerical value. Kars has a mind disc for a dog. Said mind disc doesnt have the intelligence of a dog though .
And no shit on the chrono move but he can dimension hop and avoid that dragon . Kars would avpid the move and the only way he wouldnt probably be from grimon mind having all of kars minds .
Yeah? Already aware .
What question? And as for lephyr he semingly disagrees with using evidence from the source material. Which obviously would be and is and of itself imposisble as the novel is based off manga .
And no shit on the chrono move but he can dimension hop and avoid that dragon . Kars would avpid the move and the only way he wouldnt probably be from grimon mind having all of kars minds .
Yeah? Already aware .
What question? And as for lephyr he semingly disagrees with using evidence from the source material. Which obviously would be and is and of itself imposisble as the novel is based off manga .
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Higher dimensional mind hax > any finite number of 3-D minds
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