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Grand Priest and Zen O Match Ban

If the info on Zeno is considered to be okay for a match, then I don't get what's holding GP back. We have enough info about his many abilities and we know what he can do in battle since he can do everything Whis can, and is much stronger.

Simply saying we shouldn't use him because we haven't seen him fight is not an excuse when we can easily make an informed estimate about him through Whis. And him not showing his true power isn't a reason as well because we have matches for many characters from ongoing series who haven't shown their powers like Saitama, etc.
 
AKM sama said:
If the info on Zeno is considered to be okay for a match, then I don't get what's holding GP back. We have enough info about his many abilities and we know what he can do in battle since he can do everything Whis can, and is much stronger.
Click to expand...
So you agree both should be banned?
 
So instead of ban, we should "Standard Tactics" to GP's profile so it says he fights just like Whis (aka with preassure points and UI)?
 
Nothing should be added to GP's profile. He already has sufficient info about him written there that would make him usable in vs matches.
 
No, that should totally be added to avoid what lead to this thread getting support, even from staff like Cal.
 
AKM sama said:
If the info on Zeno is considered to be okay for a match, then I don't get what's holding GP back. We have enough info about his many abilities and we know what he can do in battle since he can do everything Whis can, and is much stronger.
Simply saying we shouldn't use him because we haven't seen him fight is not an excuse when we can easily make an informed estimate about him through Whis. And him not showing his true power isn't a reason as well because we have matches for many characters from ongoing series who haven't shown their powers like Saitama, etc.
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TBF, 'we also do that thing for other characters' isn't a reason to keep doing it, if anything i'd prefer if we stopped doing that in general, using characters who have yet to lift a finger just sound dumb to me.
 
I am all for anything, no matter how little, that may tell us about how a fighter does things.

For GP, we have nothing beyond abilities he has and a "maybe perhaps" from someone that may not even fight like him and hasn't himself battled much at all.

There's a more fundamental problem in the mere fact of arguing characters that feel like a complete guesstimation.
 
Kukui makes an excellent point, but while I understand a ban for GP, I don't think we should given like, we don't do it for anyone else. Should just be common sense.
 
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
Naruto was taught by Jiraiya. Sasuke by Orochimaru, Kakashi by Minato, and so on. None of them fight the same way as their teachers do, nor have the same mentality as they do for combat. Each have their own fighting methods and battling styles.
So, yeah. I think that answers that question.
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Naruto was taught literally one move by Jiraiya. Sasuke learned jack all from Orochimaru maybe except bladework. Minato didn't teach Kakashi crap beyond basics.

All of your examples fail to compare to GP and Whis' angel who, as far as we know, learned absolutely everything from his father.

So no, it does not answer that question at all.
 
>Naruto was taught literally one move by Jiraiya.

So Summoning, Rasengan and Odama Rasengan = 1 move all of a sudden? And you act like Naruto didnt develop better fighting tactics compared to his younger self during a timeskip of 2 years with Jiraiya.

>Sasuke learned jack all from Orochimaru maybe except bladework

See above, but replace rasengan with improved variations of Chidori. Not to mention, Sasuke gains some of Orochimaru's abilities after he absorbs him. Never does he ever fight with the same tactics or mindset as Orochimaru does (also keep in mind, Orochimaru himself admitted Sasuke is a far bigger genius than himself despite the former still teaching the latter at that point.)

Even then, Sasuke's own bladework differs from how Orochimaru fights with blades.

>Minato didn't teach Kakashi crap beyond basics.

I'll give you this one, Kakashi and Minato probably weren't the best examples. So i'll use other ones.

Tsunade and Sakura / Ino. Ino is literally a non-combatant despite being trained by the strongest combat Kunoichi Naruto gives us sans Sakura. We also have Jiraiya teaching Nagato, Yahiko and Konan (the latter 3 use entirely different abilities from Jiraiya besides Summoning), Guy sensei and Lee (Lee is much more direct and aggressive than Guy who actually thinks more before landing an attack), Hiruzen and the Sannin (Again, only summoning jutsu is the similarity, Orochimaru was the only one out of the 3 who lined up with Hiriuzen's genius), etc.

The point still stands. Learning everything from what someone teaches you doesn't mean you will fight exactly the same way as they do. It's still different people who have different preferences as to how they fight someone. You may share some/all the same abilities, but how you use them is personal preference.
 
why go out of the way and ban GP? Most of the stuff on his profile is self explanatory. His AP isn't hard to grasp either:

Grand Priest > All the Angels > SSJB Gogeta meaning he's well above DB's 2-C Baseline
 
AwkguyDB said:
why go out of the way and ban GP? Most of the stuff on his profile is self explanatory.
Click to expand...
You haven't been in a single GP match if you think his profile is self explanatory. Also, we already asked for a way out on the ban, adding an "Standard Tactics" section (which Kukui is debunking btw to show why he should be banned).

Edit: Also, what Kukui said just above.
 
Pretty much that. I am not about to make a default assumption of "these two dudes must battle the same and have the same priorities in battles because one trained the other". Especially in a race of super long lived quasi-immortals that as far as we know haven't had any sort of martial activity between each other in what may be eons.

Even worse, what we have for Whis is "something" by the barest possible definition considering his number of abilities and confirmed level of skill, and transplanting that to someone else makes it doubly dubious.

Even worse, this isn't even reasoning that a student would be similar to their teacher, but that the teacher would be similar to the student. I hope I don't have to clarify why you shouldn't expect this comparison to work the same both ways.
 
LSirLancelotDuLacl said:
Pretty much that. I am not about to make a default assumption of "these two dudes must battle the same and have the same priorities in battles because one trained the other". Especially in a race of super long lived quasi-immortals that as far as we know haven't had any sort of martial activity between each other in what may be eons.
Even worse, what we have for Whis is "something" by the barest possible definition considering his number of abilities and confirmed level of skill, and transplanting that to someone else makes it doubly dubious.

Even worse, this isn't even reasoning that a student would be similar to their teacher, but that the teacher would be similar to the student. I hope I don't have to clarify why you should expect this comparison to work the same both ways.
Click to expand...
We know that Vados and Whis were training with each other 1000 years ago so them not training in eons is false.
 
Well, looks like most people here agree that despite knowing what his Ap and abilities are, there isn't any sufficient information about how GP goes through his business when he's in a fight. So I guess it's okay.

Same with the other angels and Zeno too. Zeno hasn't fought anybody and the angels never fight because rules.
 
Agree with banning GP: The real cal howard, Omegas03, Dragomer, Darkfire890, LSirLancelotDuLacl, ProfessorKukui4Life, ProudLearner. Also, AKM Sama doesn't disagree anymore.

So, anything left to discuss here?
 
AKM sama said:
Same with the other angels and Zeno too. Zeno hasn't fought anybody and the angels never fight because rules.
Click to expand...
Yeah this^

Also for the GoDs. None of them have been in an actual fight so we don't know how they go about it.
 
I agree with all Angels and Zen O being banned for obvious reasons. Beerus is the only GoD we saw fighting, so he should be ok, the rest would likely need to be banned as well.
 
"...there isn't any sufficient information about how GP goes through his business when he's in a fight."

Going by this standard, I'd say there's enough to suggest how Beerus, Champa, Zeno and arguably Whis + the exhibition GoDs all fight. We've seen what Beerus and Champa would do if they fought, we know that all Zeno does is erasure like against IZ, and we know somewhat about Whis' ultra instinct, martial arts, pressure points etc.

In general I feel like we should be lenient with matchbans, or at least set a standard for what makes a profile unusable in vsmatches, since I'm sure this isn't a one-off case.
 
I already mentioned above, I don't mind Zen-O and I don't think the majortiy does either. Zen-O's main deal is erase, and we know he defaults for it and likely would normally if there's no GP to deal with him. It is very bare, but completely usable.
 
Even if Zeno's main deal is erasure, we are completely oblivious about what he does if that doesn't work in a fight. Same with the GoDs.

And the case for angels is literally the same as GP. Despite having numerous abilities and using them once in a while, they don't fight and we don't know how they would go about it if they were involved in one.
 
Ionliosite said:
The exhibition GoD fight is manga only btw.
Click to expand...
I'm talking about the three GoDs that fought before the tournament. The ones from the universes that were spared
 
That was just a sparring match though, not a real fight.
 
I said it'd be arguable. Plus match-banning a character because they've never faced an opponent that has resisted their main move is too harsh.
 
I mean the whole thread was arguing along the same lines of "we don't know how this character goes about his fights". I thought that was a valid point since we never saw that character fight outside of his single go-to move.

If you ask me, this whole thing is too harsh.
 
GyroNutz said:
Plus match-banning a character because they've never faced an opponent that has resisted their main move is too harsh.
Click to expand...
Grand Priest isn't getting banned because of that. He's getting banned because he hasn't fight AT ALL. At no point has ever done anything that could be considered a fight. The same for most of the Angels and GoDs, who have basically done nothing but stand there. Beerus is the only one who has been in a legitimate fight, and if you want to stretch the meaning of fights, only Whis and Zen O would be saved.
 
I was referring to Zeno, or more generally, AKM Sama point about "we are completely oblivious about what he does if that doesn't work in a fight."

Though I think Champa could be saved, he had a proper fight with Beerus after all
 
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