Golden Sun Characters' Tiers

[Niarobi_(Formerly_Hadou)]

Okay, so I'm still not done postponing my gameplay where I'm gathering screenshots of relevant things where I'll make a blog for Psynergy, that's not what this post is about.

What this post is about is the tiering. We have them at Large Island level for two things. One, the feat regarding the Meteor summon, and two, the feat of the Elemental Stars shaking the world from the lighthouses.

As for the latter end feat, it's come to my recent attention that we just assumed that the world in the series was about the same size as ours, but I remembered that the world is actually much bigger. This picture portrays Weyard in a manner that shows that it has at least seven continents. Here's the thing. Weyard is actually a super huge plateau that all of the known world is sitting on top of. As you can see in that picture, at the bottom of Gaia Falls, the ocean continues going, and that isn't just speculation. In Dark Dawn, you can actually go down past Gaia Falls when going to Treasure Island in that game. As we see in Dark Dawn's Meteor summo, the world is actually probably not flat(there are some statements that hint that it genuinely is flat, and if it is, the feat will be much more impressive, but I will wait until I get more confirmation before assuming it is, so we'll assume it is for now based on this).

Since the world is not flat, and there is a nearly Earth-sized huge plateau on it, the world should logically be far bigger than the Earth. I think the size could be found and the feat of shaking tbe world be recalculated.

 

[Theglassman12]

Well it doesn't have the exact same number of continents as the real world does, so it's still up in the air if it's legitimately bigger than earth or not.

 

[Niarobi_(Formerly_Hadou)]

It has eight. You are likely miscounting leaving out Prox and the one to the far south(another snowy continent).

 

[Theglassman12]

I see 7 from what the map is showing me.

 

[Niarobi_(Formerly_Hadou)]

That's why I said leaving out Prox. Prox is a snowy continent to the north of what the map shows.

 

[Theglassman12]

Really? That's a continent???? It looks like a small country to me.

 

[Niarobi_(Formerly_Hadou)]

Dude, it's not small. You must be confusing Imil with Prox. Prox isn't connected to other continents.

 

[Theglassman12]

Well the map makes it look small. But anyways, let's drop it and just move on to the discussion.

 

[Niarobi_(Formerly_Hadou)]

So, eight continents. My point is, Weyard itself is bigger than Earth, and Weyard is isn't close to being the full planet.

 

[Theglassman12]

Well we need something to measure the planet, and I'm not good at measuring stuff in game.

 

[Niarobi_(Formerly_Hadou)]

Non-Euclidean geometry using the angle of the place could possibly be used to measure it. I can see what I can do.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

This does look interesting; I've been wondering where Multi-Continent level to Star level came from on ProtoDude video. But yeah, still need more context.

 

[Theglassman12]

wait, someone else was calcing Golden Sun characters already?

 

[Niarobi_(Formerly_Hadou)]

No, there is enough context to show that the planet is much larger than Earth. Weyard is a huge plateau that's got eight continents on it and makes up a much smaller portion of the unexplored world.

Star level likely comes from this, which should also be calced and is likely far above Star level, which wouldn't scale to anyone except for maybe Alex due to presumably being the ultimate one when it comes to Psynergy, described by the Wise One as being "Nigh-Omnipotent".

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I meant we might need some possible recalcing, but the Star level transformation was initially rejected. Weyard's size should probably be calc'd as that might scale to the Golden Sun.

 

[Niarobi_(Formerly_Hadou)]

It wasn't rejected, it was accepted, it was just that it wouldn't scale to anyone else, which I rethought and just gave reasoning as to why it would. The reason it wouldn't scale to anyone else was that Iris transformed and the the enemies flew into her. This means anyone with 8-A(?) durability could survive it, because it's just dropping the opponent into the Sun. But as I said, the Golden Sun is the ultimate source of Psynergy, and so Alex and the Wise One should logically be superior to Iris.

 

[Niarobi_(Formerly_Hadou)]

Okay, several things.

1. The Iris feat is Large Star level.

2. The Golden Sun is the source of basically everything.

3. Gaia Falls has an infinite amount of water that falls into an endless void

4. The world was flat in the first two games, and it grew into a round world in the third one. So the feats regarding shaking the world don't need to be recalculated, but the meteor feat could be recalculated if there were a way to find out how big the world was in the third game.

So the Iris feat was overplayed by statements. I think that the Golden Sun, Alex, and the Wise One should be "High 3-A, possibly Low 2-C" with the justifications...

Golden Sun(the Golden Sun is the most powerful and pure source of Alchemy. All things originated from the Golden Sun, including the infinite water that flows endlessly down Gaia Falls, and possibly even the whole universe.)

Alex(after absorbing three fourths of the Golden Sun, Alex was described by the Wise One as being Nigh-Omnipotent.)

The Wise One(his understanding of Alchemy is above all others, and his power is so great that he cannot even directly interfere with the world. Defeated Alex.)

 

[Theglassman12]

is there actual quotes that says that the golden Sun has power over the entire universe?

 

[Niarobi_(Formerly_Hadou)]

There are quotes that say Alchemy is the origin of all things and dominates over everything. Let me get them.

 

[Niarobi_(Formerly_Hadou)]

https://imgur.com/gallery/oKNKj

These were quotes I grabbed like in the beginning of the game. When I eventually get around to playing more, I'll find more, but I feel like this is pretty solid.

 

[Theglassman12]

Well kraden only mentions the world, not the universe. So 5-B seems more likely to happen as opposed to High 3-A or Low 2-C

 

[Niarobi_(Formerly_Hadou)]

World can mean universe, just saying. That's not him nailing it down to tier 5, and as I mentioned, "origin of all things", "dominates over everything".

 

[Theglassman12]

and "World" can also mean the planet they're in.

 

[Niarobi_(Formerly_Hadou)]

I didn't say it can't. But world isn't the only statement that's relevant here. "Everything" and "all things" don't only refer to the planet that live on.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Isn't Iris' feat Star level in like every game?

 

[Niarobi_(Formerly_Hadou)]

No, only in Dark Dawn. In the first two, Iris is not shown creating/becoming the Sun like she does in the third one.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Yeah, Star creation feat is only in Dark Dawn. Although, I'm hoping to get good results when we find a way to calc Weyard's size. Is there an image to show how big the whole world is compared to the plateau GS 1+2 take place?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Iris' feats should scale to a lot of people.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Iris is kind of one of the god tiers, we really shouldn't scale anyone to her directly. And while Iris turning into a star is a Large Star level feat, launching enemies into the sun is really far from it. We also can't use kinetic energy to calc it as they'd technically be launching the enemy at Massively FTL speeds. And being inside the center of the sun is still only an 8-A feat, albeit higher if the star is larger, but still not too impressive.

But since Weyard is a super large planet, then the meteor calc could lead to a lot of upgrades between the meteor itself being larger, the gravity likely being far higher (which also effects the weight of the meteor as another multiplier), and the distance from which it fell having greater distances and more time to build up speed, and the Acceleration due to gravity being much higher.

Edit: if we lowball it and assume Weyard's diameter/radius is 10x greater than Earth's and has the same average density, the result of the Meteor calc would be around 1,000,000x greater at around 150 Petatons. That's Multi-Continent level.

Ah, I looked at the calc again, the meteor wasn't compared to the planet's size, but the characters. So it's still the same volume, but it still falls 10x faster and the gravity is making it 10x greater weight. So 150 Teratons would still make it Large Country level

 

[Niarobi_(Formerly_Hadou)]

I wasn't scaling anyone to Iris directly, because in any game where you summon her, the enemies only get thrown into the sun at MFTL+ speeds.

The scaling that I was implying is that the Golden Sun is the greatest, the ultimate power, the strongest Psynergy, the source of everything, and Iris shouldn't be superior or probably not even comparable to it.

But yeah, Large Country level for every main character is fine with me. I do have a problem with comparing the meteor's size to the characters instesd of the planet's, because the meteor is visibly shown in every game to be pretty big compared to the planet when it approaches, and if I recall correctly, when it crashes into the characters, it is shown to be much smaller, but this is true for nearly every summon in every game when closing up on the battle at the end of the summon.

And I still haven't gotten any comment on the Golden Sun being "High 3-A, possibly Low 2-C" along with Alex and the Wise One. Do I need more statements?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Scaling Iris's feat to the complete Golden Sun might be alright, but I'm still a bit skeptical on High 3-A to Low 2-C. Alex had three quarters of the Golden Sun, and Wise One is superior to him, but scaling them to the Golden Sun is still a bit iffy. Even having Two Triforce pieces doesn't scale someone to the complete Triforce.

 

[Niarobi_(Formerly_Hadou)]

But that's different, it's shown not to give comparable power. With three fourths of the Golden Sun, Alex was stated to be "Nigh-Omnipotent". And I mainly asked if it was agreeable for the Golden Sun to be that tier.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Well yes, Golden Sun being Large Star level is fine of course, should specify that it should be comparable if not superior to Iris. Alex does describe himself as Nigh-Omnipotent, but keep in mind that a lot of egotistical characters do that, even ones who are just barely superhuman in the first place.

Nigh-Omnipotent, mostly just implies he's the strongest adept in the series with or without Golden Sun enhancements. People refer to the complete Golden Sun as true omnipotence, but that's obvious NLF. But since the primary question was if the complete Golden Sun scales to Iris's feat, I suppose the answer is yes.

 

[Niarobi_(Formerly_Hadou)]

Alex was described by the Wise One as being Nigh-Omnipotent, and I was saying the Golden Sun should be High 3-A/Low 2-C. That hasn't been commented on. I showed statements regarding the Golden Sun having been the source of all and holding Dominion over everything.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I'm well aware of the Nigh-Omnipotent or the Golden Sun holding dominion over everything, but the Triforce is pretty much the same thing. We don't consider that High 3-A or Low 2-C, and is currently High 4-C. I know Cal has plans to upgrade it to 3-A, but it's been brought up and rejected multiple times sadly.

Still, even 8-A characters have been described as Nigh-Omnipotent before...

 

[Niarobi_(Formerly_Hadou)]

You don't seem to be getting what I'm saying. I am not basing High 3-A or Low 2-C off of it being called Omnipotent. I'm basing that off of these scans. Alex is called Nigh-Omnipotent after getting three fourths of the power of the Golden Sun, so I think he and the Wise One should scale to it.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I know, but still don't necesarly consider that High 3-A or Low 2-C for being the source of all matter. The highest that could possibly yield is 3-A. I'm hype'd for 3-A Golden Sun though.

 

[Niarobi_(Formerly_Hadou)]

The endless stream of water implies High 3-A. But you're right, I need more evidence for Low 2-C.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

"Endless Stream of Water" sounds very hyperbolic. That sounds more like the characters living on the Plateau assumed it to be infinite in size; but as seen Golden Sun 3, it's still a round planet. It's better said that the characters assumed Gaia Falls is infinite because they've never been down there. It seems very absurd for an infinite sized waterfall to just suddenly magically devolve into a round planet. Albiet, the Plateau is still planet sized, but still miniscule compared to Weyard; might be even bigger than One Piece Earth. 3-A is still reasonable though.

 

[Theglassman12]

So what's the proposed changes here?