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Goku's Low 2-C justification.

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Jobbo

Jobbo

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This part in particular: "By breaking his previous limits each time he attained Ultra Instinct, he was eventually able to fight Jiren somewhat competently with his SSJB form, and was comparable to his previous plateau attained via Ultra Instinct while only utilizing SSJB Kaio-ken x20"


Did Goku actually do anything to show this? He and Vegeta put together got completely overwhelmed by Jiren showing a hint of his true power. It should probably be amended to "comparable to his first usage of Ultra Instinct".
 
This isn't about whether or not he's Low 2-C, but rather whether he's comparable to UIO in SSB KKx20.


Judging by Jiren commenting that his attacks had gotten sharper, he should only be slightly above the UIO from 110 in attack power comparable in eveyrthing else.
 
Kefla SSJ1 was comparable to the before 2nd trigger UIO that link is just in case you wanna tell me otherwise feat starts from 5:11 to 6:35 Which if your honestly beliveing that Goku isn't getting stronger as the Tournement was going then heres another link basacally proving the diffrence This link is the first time they fought... 1:42 to about 2:20 basacally fodderized by a casual (not true power) Jiren now this one Meanseven if you split the work up evenly 50/50 which would be "politicaly correct to say" since Tien stated "simutanious attacks" That still means at the bare minimum he is 50x better against Jiren then he was before not even counting Jirens power increase against them... feat starts at about 2:11 on (just enjoy this vid) I feel this should "indicate" to you that he was getting better and I think with the Kefla feat at least means since he was comparable before 3rd trigger KKX20SSJB was 2nd trigger UIO level
 
His Low 2-C level comes from the fact that Jiren's completely and utterly superior to every other being prior; including Infinite Zamasu who is baseline Low 2-C. Infinite Zamasu made Beerus worried/annoyed at best; Jiren made Beerus crap his pants. And UIO was able to stalemate the Jiren that made Beerus crap his pants.

Jiren against New-Form Vegeta and SSB Goku Kaioken x20 was fighting a Jiren that was quote "Finally revealing a true glimpse of his power!". This directly implies that Jiren against Vegeta and Goku>Jiren vs first UIO Goku. So SSB Kaioken x20 Would definitely be superior to first UIO Goku in every way; since First-UIO Goku didn't ever force Jiren to go "True Power" for even a moment (No an Aura does not count). SSB Kaioken x20 Goku, for all intents and purposes, is superior to UIO Goku in every category. Of course, Ultra Instinct is a factor, but still.


Edit: Re-read your comment; They got overwhelmed, but that's because Jiren increased his power output even more. They royally kicked Jiren's ass at the beginning who was stated to be finally showing some glimpse of his real power. Even if he's thrown off, he shouldn't get smashed into a wall like that if they were only slightly above original UIO Goku, who Jiren can casually take hits from. A "Slightly" more powerful attack power simply doesn't allow them to do that to Jiren.
 
Infinate Zamasu is the "baseline" 2-c not low just traight up 2-c you might be refering to merged Zamasu being "baseline low-2c" and yeah others I agree
 
But even SSB Goku smashed Jiren into a wall back in 109, that on its own isn't a meaningful feat.
 
LEGASP! EVERYTHING FROM POWER SCALING IS AN OUTLIER! MERGED ZAMASU IS >>>>>>>>>>>> MUI GOKU AND JIREN!
 
Jiren only used a small fraction of his true power the first time he traded blows with UIO Goku, he was a bit more serious against SSB Kaioken Goku and BSSB Vegeta. But didn't truly use his full power until UIM Goku stepped in.
 
Jobbo said:
But even SSB Goku smashed Jiren into a wall back in 109, that on its own isn't a meaningful feat.
Click to expand...
THIS IS GETTING SUPER RIDICULOUS last time im going to say it in fact im spelling it out

and using definitions because your not getting the point

C.A.S.U.A.L J.I.R.E.N

Casual: relaxed and unconcerned

AND T.R.U.E.P.O.W.E.R J.I.R.E.N

True Power: Giving real strength; trying twoards something

Anymore mention's of this "meaningless feat" Im going to treat as troll
 
They were still superior to the Jiren that was stated to have been finally showing a true glimpse of his power. What you just said just supports what I said; that they only got overwhelmed after he powered up again xD

@Grim and Jobbo


Goku smashing Jiren through a wall when Jiren was ultra-casual and not trying at all (kind of like Saitama) is NOT the same as a Jiren that's actually trying (Showing a true glimpse of power) being slammed through a wall.
 
Fhfhghghg said:
Akerious you might want to re read it one more time. I said they didn't get overwhelmed in their first fight, and only did so after he powered up again.
Click to expand...
SSB Goku was performing fairly well against Jiren until he used his eye powers to destroy SSBKKx20, he performed the feat of punching Jiren into a mountain as well, look here:

https://youtu.be/29G-QtweROU?t=1m25s

You can't use that to say Goku and Vegeta surpassed UIO level.
 
@akerious I was trying to prove that point.

@Jobbo

That's a super casual Jiren who didn't use a hint of his power.

Powered Up Kaioken x20 Goku and Limit Breaker Vegeta were somewhat comparable to him at the hint of his power.
 
Also, why are you constantly bringing up casual Jiren vs full power Jiren @Grim? I myself acknowledged that Jiren was starting to show his true power against Goku and Vegeta.
 
Ah. Kk. Thanks@

@Jobbo


Read my edit. Ultra casual Jiren that's not trying at all vs A Jiren that's actually trying and showing his actual power. You're making a counter-argument out of two scenarios not at all applicable to eachother.


That's like saying I get play-punched from my cousins that are 5 and staggering, then getting legitimately knocked back my friends who like to rough-house a little then staggering. The "Result" is the same, but one is definitely superior to the other.


Edit: I know I might sound a little hostile, but why're you bringing up the fact that he's been punched through walls before when the circumstances behind them are completely different?
 
You're missing the point. Right after SSB Goku punches Jiren, Jiren proceeds to completely destroy SSBKKx20 Goku without powering up. This means that people at less than 1/20 of Jiren's power can trade blows with him.

What I'm saying is that Goku and Vegeta fighting Jiren doesn't even mean that they're at 1/20th of his power.
 
Except Jiren probably was powering up while fighting him.

Fighters in DB can power up at FTE speeds, as shown when Goku powered up against Super Ribrianne, and Goku and Vegeta Go Blue to save Supreme Kai and Gowasu. Also how is that sensical if both Blue and BKKX20 was demolished, so no 1/20th power can't fight him.
 
Okay, to make simpler to understand, this is what I'm proposing in terms of numbers:

SSB Goku: 1

Casual Jiren: 50

UIO Goku: 50

SSBE Vegeta/Post-UIO KKx20 Goku: 55

Jiren (True Power): Potentially up to 1,000 or above.
 
. . .?

I.... don't really see... your point? the point I'm trying to convey is that Goku and Vegeta legitimately caused a trying-jiren to go flying when UIO Goku from before utterly failed in that. The Goku that knocked Goku back in their very first initial encounter was literally Saitama, going "I wonder what I should have tonight" (Okay maybe not that exaggerated).


And I think it's established that he lowers his power down to the level of the opponent a lot. Of course people that's 1/20th of his power or less is able to trade blows with him. It's a matter of Goku and Vegeta getting an actual hit on Jiren when he's seriously trying when a Casual Jiren who was serious about fighting Initial UIO Goku was unmoved by even his strongest moves.


Edit: Problem with your scale, UIO Goku that fought a Casual Jiren (That wasn't ******* around like with first encounter SSB Goku) was utterly and completely unable to make Jiren go at all serious. SSB Kaiokenx20 and new-Form Vegeta was able to cause a Serious, "True Glimpse" Jiren to reel back and had to power up even further to overwhelm them. Goku and Vegeta wouldn't be only "slightly" superior to initial UIO Goku; They're flat out superior.
 
Two guys slightly above UIO punching Jiren at the same time would have over twice the power of UIO, I see no reason for them to be considerably above UIO individually.
 
First of all 1.) No one at 1/20th his power were even coming near his location they were scared

2nd.) we can bring up how ssj hit him and didnt move him which I consider 1/20th so he was trading blows

3RD.) Heres my point WE ARE NOT TRYING TO SAY EITHER OF WHICH COMPETES WITH JIREN YOUR MISSING THE POINT WE ARE SAYING ONE FOR SURE DOES BETTER THAN THE OTHER AND IS VASTLY SUPERIOR

4th.) I have no clue what your talking about just think just think, your basacally saying SSJB KKX20 is = to the SSJBKKX20 versus Jiren 3rd trigger in which case yes you are completley wrong without doubt

5th.) AGAIN CASUAL VS TRUE POWER if he is casual vs 1st trigger UIO and non-casual agains SSJBKKX20 do you honestly think like honestly think SSJBKKX20 is still only at most =< UIO 1st trigger just because the argument could be made "casual Jiren can still beat this current SSJBKKX20" because that wouldnt be a good arguement to use and simply this analogy was the best

"That's like saying I get play-punched from my cousins that are 5 and staggering, then getting legitimately knocked back my friends who like to rough-house a little then staggering. The "Result" is the same, but one is definitely superior to the other. "

and this is the moral of the story right here for me too "I know I might sound a little hostile, but why're you bringing up the fact that he's been punched through walls before when the circumstances behind them are completely different?"
 
Maybe because Goku was able to hold off Jiren after Vegeta was separated from them and not get totally bodied like in his first SSB Encounter?

You think Jiren and Goku would be able to stand on that ledge having a face-down if Jiren was able to body Goku with every hit?
 
Akreious said:
Maybe because Goku was able to hold off Jiren after Vegeta was separated from them and not get totally bodied like in his first SSB Encounter?
You think Jiren and Goku would be able to stand on that ledge having a face-down if Jiren was able to body Goku with every hit?
Click to expand...
Goku didn't get bodied in his first encounter until Jiren used his eye power, Jiren had to put some effort into stomping him and blasting him off the stage


Also, Goku had a good sense of Jiren's range in the second encounter and thus was able to avoid getting stomped, and even then Jiren was heavily suppressed.
 
Honestly there is nothing more to say here we are constantly changing our proof to make more sene but she isn't I feel this is an unwinnable battle right now... and I honestly think this thread will be overlooked
 
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