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Goku upgrade (SPOILERS)
- Thread starter Zamasu_Chan
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My_area
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Goku suddenly gaining a huge boost that his base form is Low 2C is a wromg idea and really reaching so I disagree
There is no way that Goku base can be above Vegeta SSG as Goku was really still getting smacked around by Broly
Plus their blue form looked equal when they were fighting SSJ Broly and not a huge difference debunks the Low 2C base Goku as there is no way that SSB Goku is holding back here
There is no way that Goku base can be above Vegeta SSG as Goku was really still getting smacked around by Broly
Plus their blue form looked equal when they were fighting SSJ Broly and not a huge difference debunks the Low 2C base Goku as there is no way that SSB Goku is holding back here
My_area
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Warren Valion said
Did well?Like what just exchanged blows and thats it,didn't even block a single punch from Broly
Ok so how does Krillin suddenly relates to Vegeta power?
There is no proof that base Goku held back as if he did Vegeta would have known and he never holds back his strength in equal form with Vegeta as he is Vegeta who is a rival not Krillin who is nothing to Goku now
Goku SSB and Vegeta SSB fighting equal in end of TOP,Base Goku and Base Vegeta fighting squally in a spar,SSB Goku and SSB Vegeta performed equally against SSJ Broly debunks all this claim of Goku being Low 2C in base
Did well?Like what just exchanged blows and thats it,didn't even block a single punch from Broly
Ok so how does Krillin suddenly relates to Vegeta power?
There is no proof that base Goku held back as if he did Vegeta would have known and he never holds back his strength in equal form with Vegeta as he is Vegeta who is a rival not Krillin who is nothing to Goku now
Goku SSB and Vegeta SSB fighting equal in end of TOP,Base Goku and Base Vegeta fighting squally in a spar,SSB Goku and SSB Vegeta performed equally against SSJ Broly debunks all this claim of Goku being Low 2C in base
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Vegeta was resting the entire time that Goku fought a much stronger Broly in Base, Super, God and Blue. Comparing a rested Vegeta Blue to an exhausted, heavily beaten, Goku Blue that fought a much stronger Broly is stupid.
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Broly was fighting equality with base Goku until he adapted, ssj Goku caught Broly off guard for a sec and even caught his punch. Broly had to adapt to ssg Goku, he even changes in size then starts stomping Goku. Just because Goku is only training with Vegeta doesn't mean he's not holding back, or else literally everyone on the TOP that is 4-B or below is 3-A scaling from base Goku. The ending of the TOP + Goku's fight with Broly + Toriyama's word is enough evidence.
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^ ThisZamasu Chan said:
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Obviously Krillin is Low 2-C and this is just downplay.
My_area
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Ok so?How does tired Goku got so weak that he went to so down level?Besude Goku doesn't get weaker that easier at all anyway as Goku still retained the strength despite him getting more beating by Frieza in Namek saga then Broly ever did to Goku,Beside Goku never lost power because he was fighting too much,he got tired when he is beaten by a stronger enemy which doesn't happen as when Broly transforms into SSJ Vegeta immediatly joined
Equally?Where?Base Goku just clashed his punch with Broly thats all and it was Broly stomping Goku base and SSJ easily
He was already stronger than SSG Goku,Goku was just doing better due to paralysis technique and thats it and it was Goku getting stomped over and over again
Goku doesn't hold back against Vegeta in base form or in equal form and he never did and there is no proof that he did as only time he did it was when he had a stronger form(SSJ3) which could one shot Vegeta at that time,beside both were casual while fighting means they both were equal qs nobody not even Whis nor Vegeta commented about Goku beings miles above Vegeta suddenly
Ending of TOP showed both SSB Goku=SSB Vegeta and there is no proof that base Goku>SSG Vegeta as this jump is enormous and without explict reasoning or mention by characters as such means it can be easily declared as outliner
Equally?Where?Base Goku just clashed his punch with Broly thats all and it was Broly stomping Goku base and SSJ easily
He was already stronger than SSG Goku,Goku was just doing better due to paralysis technique and thats it and it was Goku getting stomped over and over again
Goku doesn't hold back against Vegeta in base form or in equal form and he never did and there is no proof that he did as only time he did it was when he had a stronger form(SSJ3) which could one shot Vegeta at that time,beside both were casual while fighting means they both were equal qs nobody not even Whis nor Vegeta commented about Goku beings miles above Vegeta suddenly
Ending of TOP showed both SSB Goku=SSB Vegeta and there is no proof that base Goku>SSG Vegeta as this jump is enormous and without explict reasoning or mention by characters as such means it can be easily declared as outliner
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I wonder how Goku would have been heavily weakened when he fought Broly in Blue...I can't imagine what rationale we could come to that would explain to us why Goku would be half dead by that point...
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I had a whole comment responding to Warren but for whatever reason I wasn't logged in so I lost it. Oops.
Anyone I disagree with the notion the current Base Goku>SSG Vegeta when nothing in the movie suggests it and the one statement out of universe about Vegeta trying to catch up was likely about Ultra Instinct (not headcanon since thats what makes the most sense).
Anyone I disagree with the notion the current Base Goku>SSG Vegeta when nothing in the movie suggests it and the one statement out of universe about Vegeta trying to catch up was likely about Ultra Instinct (not headcanon since thats what makes the most sense).
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I mean if you think about it Broly Saga Base Goku being stronger than Broly Saga SSG Vegeta is actually pretty consistent with the Broly movie statements and their power level at the end of the ToP. As well as the limit breaking boosts Goku has gotten via UIS in the tournament.
We know that Goku gained a third limit breaking boost from accessing UIS a third time on top of tapping into the Complete UI. While Vegeta on the other hand was never stated to have broken his limits a second time in the ToP.
And we know from author statements that SSBE = SSBKK. Which means Vegeta after breaking his limits once and unlocking SSBE should be stronger than or equal to Post-2nd UIS Goku and below Post-UI Goku.
Also Post-UI SSG Goku should already be Low 2-C if we go by all the previous limit breaking boosts he's gotten in the tournament. However I disagree with Broly Saga Base to SS3 Goku becoming Low 2-C. At most it would just make him a higher end of 3-A in his non god forms.
We know that Goku gained a third limit breaking boost from accessing UIS a third time on top of tapping into the Complete UI. While Vegeta on the other hand was never stated to have broken his limits a second time in the ToP.
And we know from author statements that SSBE = SSBKK. Which means Vegeta after breaking his limits once and unlocking SSBE should be stronger than or equal to Post-2nd UIS Goku and below Post-UI Goku.
Also Post-UI SSG Goku should already be Low 2-C if we go by all the previous limit breaking boosts he's gotten in the tournament. However I disagree with Broly Saga Base to SS3 Goku becoming Low 2-C. At most it would just make him a higher end of 3-A in his non god forms.
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This might be a stupid comment but why are we assuming Vegeta is trying to catch up to UI Goku when he himself said he dosen't want it and also knows Goku can't use it. That only means that it's likely that he's trying to simply catch up to Goku in Blue.
My_area
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It should boost his SSB or other forms not base it doesn't make much sense nor does it make sense for boost to be this huge its much larger than Zenkai boost ever was and we dont know if dropping out of UI form boosts your power or not
Which Broly statements though?
No offense but I feel like you guys really overestimate the limiter boost I mean its not that much Goku SSB jumping into Low 2C without a new form while Vegeta needed new form to be Low 2C and stronger than second UIS was pretty weird and inconsistent to me but I accepted it but well the boost of base form being in levels above second UIS and SSB potentially rivaling UI seems off and messing with power scaling though as if the jump in power suddenly seems too huge and disturbs the whole power scaling
And one thing to remember that Goku evolved his third UIS into UI so he never got the boost from third UIO as he straight on went to UI
Which Broly statements though?
No offense but I feel like you guys really overestimate the limiter boost I mean its not that much Goku SSB jumping into Low 2C without a new form while Vegeta needed new form to be Low 2C and stronger than second UIS was pretty weird and inconsistent to me but I accepted it but well the boost of base form being in levels above second UIS and SSB potentially rivaling UI seems off and messing with power scaling though as if the jump in power suddenly seems too huge and disturbs the whole power scaling
And one thing to remember that Goku evolved his third UIS into UI so he never got the boost from third UIO as he straight on went to UI
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Just for the record, because I don't want any part of this really, I saw someone here say Ultra Instinct wasn't in the movie.
It was. For like a split second to a few seconds at best, but it was.
It was. For like a split second to a few seconds at best, but it was.
ShakeResounding
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@Xerser When he was charging up to Blue, I remember that as well.
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@My area Here's the Broly movie interview statements https://mobile.twitter.com/Herms98/status/1025903372694478849
Where have you been? The limit breaking boosts have constantly been shown to be ridiculously big.
The first limit breaking boost made SSG Goku stomp LSS2 Kale who is much stronger than LSS1 Kale who was constantly stated and shown to be a threat to SSB lvl characters multiple times in the tournament. It also made his SSBKK nearly as strong as LSS1 Kefla who is stated by Whis to be comparable to the Spirit Bomb.
The second limit breaking boost made his SSB form stronger than the First UIS. It also made his SSBKK stronger than the Second UIS. Which means the second boost is at least twice as big as the first one since his SSB form surpassed the First UIS which is much stronger than the Spirit Bomb that his previous SSBKK form was weaker than.
Finally the third and final limit breaking boost made his Base form while severely weakened much stronger than Golden Frieza + Android 17 the latter of which was shown to be nearly as strong as Base Toppo who is Pre-UIS SSBKK Lvl at his full power. Also his current full power is stated to be near the lvl of the Gods. Which means his current SSB or SSBKK form is now near the Third UIS in power. This makes Broly Saga Base Goku being stronger than Broly Saga SSG Vegeta is possible because Vegeta never got another limit breaking boost and it's been shown that the next boost is bigger than the last.
Where have you been? The limit breaking boosts have constantly been shown to be ridiculously big.
The first limit breaking boost made SSG Goku stomp LSS2 Kale who is much stronger than LSS1 Kale who was constantly stated and shown to be a threat to SSB lvl characters multiple times in the tournament. It also made his SSBKK nearly as strong as LSS1 Kefla who is stated by Whis to be comparable to the Spirit Bomb.
The second limit breaking boost made his SSB form stronger than the First UIS. It also made his SSBKK stronger than the Second UIS. Which means the second boost is at least twice as big as the first one since his SSB form surpassed the First UIS which is much stronger than the Spirit Bomb that his previous SSBKK form was weaker than.
Finally the third and final limit breaking boost made his Base form while severely weakened much stronger than Golden Frieza + Android 17 the latter of which was shown to be nearly as strong as Base Toppo who is Pre-UIS SSBKK Lvl at his full power. Also his current full power is stated to be near the lvl of the Gods. Which means his current SSB or SSBKK form is now near the Third UIS in power. This makes Broly Saga Base Goku being stronger than Broly Saga SSG Vegeta is possible because Vegeta never got another limit breaking boost and it's been shown that the next boost is bigger than the last.
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Neither Goku or Vegeta should be anywhere above 3-A unless they are using SSBKKx20, SSBE, or Ultra Instinct, otherwise they would be stronger than Blue Vegeto, and Blue Vegeto has their strength added together and multiplied 10s of times. There is no way they could have increased their standard forms 40 fold in such a short amount of time. Vegeta already said in the Universe 6 arc that they are pretty much at their peaks, so even three years in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber wouldn't make much of a difference. You are trying to tell me that base Goku is now stronger than Blue Vegeto? As far as I am concerned, base Gokus strength will NEVER be higher than Zamasu arc Blue Vegeto.
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When did anybody even bring up Vegito?
All I said is a severely weakened Post-UI Base Goku is much stronger than Android 17 which makes it possible for Post-UI Base Goku to be stronger than Post-limit breaking SSG Vegeta who should >= Post-2nd UIS SSG Goku.
Also the statements about them being unable to become that much stronger is referring to them being unable to get that much stronger via training. However it's been shown many times later in the anime that Goku and Vegeta can still get much stronger via anger, saiyan biology (zenkai), or limit breaking boosts.
All I said is a severely weakened Post-UI Base Goku is much stronger than Android 17 which makes it possible for Post-UI Base Goku to be stronger than Post-limit breaking SSG Vegeta who should >= Post-2nd UIS SSG Goku.
Also the statements about them being unable to become that much stronger is referring to them being unable to get that much stronger via training. However it's been shown many times later in the anime that Goku and Vegeta can still get much stronger via anger, saiyan biology (zenkai), or limit breaking boosts.
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No one mentioned Vegito, but making base Goku low 2-C would make him more powerful than Zamasu arc Blue Vegito (who is 3-A), which was a fact that I wanted to point out. We all know that that would be ridiculous, which is why I say base Goku can't be low 2-C.
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I never agreed with Base Goku being Low 2-C. I only said it's possible for Broly Saga Base Goku to be stronger than Broly Saga SSG Vegeta who is an even higher end of 3-A. Only Broly Saga Goku's god forms (SSG to SSBKK) should be Low 2-C due to the third limit breaking boost.
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Going by previous Limit breaking boosts that Goku has gotten. His SSG form at least surpasses his SSBKKx2 form with every boost.
Also we've already had a statement that Broly Saga Goku's full power in the movie which is probably SSB is near the lvl of the Third UIS which is far more than just a mere 40x baseline Low 2-C via scaling. So logically Broly Saga SSG Goku should also be Low 2-C.
Also we've already had a statement that Broly Saga Goku's full power in the movie which is probably SSB is near the lvl of the Third UIS which is far more than just a mere 40x baseline Low 2-C via scaling. So logically Broly Saga SSG Goku should also be Low 2-C.
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No. Limit breaker boosts don't work like that. They're non-linear. The boost varies. Besides, nothing actually proves that.
What? No, just stop. That's not how it works. First of all, where was it implied that Broly movie Goku at full power was comparable to the 3rd UIO? Second of all, even if he was, Goku's full power would use SSBKKx20, not SSG. We don't have a multiplier here for SSB. It's not just 40x SSG.
What? No, just stop. That's not how it works. First of all, where was it implied that Broly movie Goku at full power was comparable to the 3rd UIO? Second of all, even if he was, Goku's full power would use SSBKKx20, not SSG. We don't have a multiplier here for SSB. It's not just 40x SSG.
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We've literally been shown that each boost is bigger than the last. And the smallest boost which is the first one which made his SSG stomp LSS2 Kale who is much stronger than LSS1 Kale who is constantly stated to be a threat by SSB lvl characters.
https://mobile.twitter.com/Herms98/status/1025903372694478849
Here it says that Broly Saga Goku is near the lvl of the gods. Which is likely referring to the GoDs such as Beerus who is comparable to the Third UIS according to this statement.
https://mobile.twitter.com/Herms98/status/971664014601154560
SSBKK never appeared in the movie which means it's likely referring to SSB Goku. SSB is considered the SS1 form of SSG so it's 40x SSG here.
https://mobile.twitter.com/Herms98/status/1025903372694478849
Here it says that Broly Saga Goku is near the lvl of the gods. Which is likely referring to the GoDs such as Beerus who is comparable to the Third UIS according to this statement.
https://mobile.twitter.com/Herms98/status/971664014601154560
SSBKK never appeared in the movie which means it's likely referring to SSB Goku. SSB is considered the SS1 form of SSG so it's 40x SSG here.
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Even in the movie, you see the golden aura of Super Saiyan surrounding God Goku before it becomes the Blue.
So Super Saiyan Blue really is a Super Saiyan level boost to Super Saiyan God.
So Super Saiyan Blue really is a Super Saiyan level boost to Super Saiyan God.
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We already know that Goku was Low 2-C in SSB after his second UIO. We also know that SSB is basically Super Saiyan for SSG (and even if you don't accept that we can see in multiple fights in the series the difference between SSG and SSB). Goku broke his limits two more times, once with the third UIO and a likely bigger boost by going MUI.
Logically speaking...if Goku can increase in power by over 40x (considering SSB Goku was stronger than UIO(1) Goku who is much stronger than Pre-UIO SSBKKX20 Goku) by breaking his limits twice...then an argument must be considered that breaking his limits with another UIO and breaking the limits of UIO by going MUI should have made Goku far far stronger.
Overall if we apply this basic logic and have the rationale that DB has no distinction between 3-A and Low 2-C...we can ascertain that SSG Goku should, at least, be Low 2-C by scaling based on previous limit break boosts.
We also have to consider that Goku was fighting on fumes for basically every fight after the first match against Jiren. Meaning a peak Goku would also be much stronger than usual...as well as all the zenkai boosts he may have obtained.
With the above logic it seems reasonable to believe that SSG Goku should be Low 2-C and if we compare how SS Goku fairs relative to SSG Vegeta (who is Low 2-C in SSB) then we can come to the conclusion that, based on how the movie depicted it, Goku should be Low 2-C in Super Saiyan and potentially Low 2-C in base.
The overall belief that stems from this is that Goku should be considered Low 2-C in all forms whereas Vegeta should only be Low 2-C in Blue at most and could arguably only be considered Low 2-C for fighting SS Broly...and even then he didn't fight much against SS Broly and had Goku's help and, thus, could be considered 3-A.
I don't seriously believe this BTW. I think it's just an outlier or inconsistency that is irrelvant to the actual feats and story progression of the film. It's pretty funny that such outliers can enable me to make such wild claims.
If the fight scenes in the novel are translated and it reveals that the massive gap is intentional and described...then Vegeta fans have a problem on their hands.
Logically speaking...if Goku can increase in power by over 40x (considering SSB Goku was stronger than UIO(1) Goku who is much stronger than Pre-UIO SSBKKX20 Goku) by breaking his limits twice...then an argument must be considered that breaking his limits with another UIO and breaking the limits of UIO by going MUI should have made Goku far far stronger.
Overall if we apply this basic logic and have the rationale that DB has no distinction between 3-A and Low 2-C...we can ascertain that SSG Goku should, at least, be Low 2-C by scaling based on previous limit break boosts.
We also have to consider that Goku was fighting on fumes for basically every fight after the first match against Jiren. Meaning a peak Goku would also be much stronger than usual...as well as all the zenkai boosts he may have obtained.
With the above logic it seems reasonable to believe that SSG Goku should be Low 2-C and if we compare how SS Goku fairs relative to SSG Vegeta (who is Low 2-C in SSB) then we can come to the conclusion that, based on how the movie depicted it, Goku should be Low 2-C in Super Saiyan and potentially Low 2-C in base.
The overall belief that stems from this is that Goku should be considered Low 2-C in all forms whereas Vegeta should only be Low 2-C in Blue at most and could arguably only be considered Low 2-C for fighting SS Broly...and even then he didn't fight much against SS Broly and had Goku's help and, thus, could be considered 3-A.
I don't seriously believe this BTW. I think it's just an outlier or inconsistency that is irrelvant to the actual feats and story progression of the film. It's pretty funny that such outliers can enable me to make such wild claims.
If the fight scenes in the novel are translated and it reveals that the massive gap is intentional and described...then Vegeta fans have a problem on their hands.
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Broly Saga SSB Goku scales to the Third UIS which is really high end Low 2-C and Limit Break boosts which is why his SSG form should also be Low 2-C. Vegeta on the other hand is only low end Low 2-C scaling from Post-2nd UIS Goku and he never got a second Limit Break boost so his SSG form shouldn't be Low 2-C without further proof. So only his SSB and SSBE form should be Low 2-C.
So yeah I disagree with Low 2-C Broly Saga Base to SS3 Goku unless there's more proof.
So yeah I disagree with Low 2-C Broly Saga Base to SS3 Goku unless there's more proof.
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How about at least 3-A base Goku possibly low 2-C God Goku?
Goku should be at least High 3A in base
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High 3-A is cherry picking.
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If you scale ToP SSB Level Characters to Jiren's Casual Feat (Considering it was shown he used more power fighting Goku and using that Spirit Bomb... Because using pressure <<<< using your hands to fight) and Tanking IZ's casual attacks and Goku's confidence on taking on Zamasu by asking for a senzu bean... Sure. Likely those are all seen as outliers though... And it would effect quite a few more than just Goku + Vegeta,,, So I'm not calling that one.
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You are quite literally implying low 2-C Base Goku. Why?The 2nd Existential Seed said:
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High 3-A actually.
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Low 2-C God Goku is fine, he straight up tanked a punch from Broly.
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