Goku Black VS Golden Great Ape Baby

[TheJokerNG]

Through some calculations, I've estimated this might be the most fair match-up between these two.

* Standard Battle Assumptions (Speed is equalized, Black's 3rd Key is used, and battle takes place in Trunks' destroyed future)

* Victory can achieved by any means

Goku body snatcher:

Vegeta body snatcher:

Ginyu negs both (Inconclusive):

 

[Nierre]

so where do each scale

 

[TheJokerNG]

so where do each scale

Borrowing scales from the Frieza VS Cell stomp thread:

Kid Buu ~ SS3 Goku > (200x) > Buuhan > (2x) > Base Goku = Ultimate Gohan = Buutenks > (2x) > SS3 Gotenks >/= Super Buu > (400x) > Base Gotenks = 2-C​

That'd put Kid Buu and SS3 Goku at around 320,000x 2-C potentially. With Cell scaling to or above Kid Buu.

SS3 Goku (Kai) = Kid Buu (Kai) = 1,600 > Buuhan = 2-C > (2x) > Ultimate Gohan = Buutenks > (2x) > SS3 Gotenks >/= Super Buu > (400x) > Base Gotenks = Baseline

In short if we just say Base Goku is 4x 2-C before BoG he would be 1,280,000x 2-C after adapting to the power of SSG and breaking his limits.

Goku Black scale:
Base Goku Black > Black Arc SSB Vegeta (Pre-HTC) > SSB Goku (RoF) = 10.24 trillion times (8,000,000x Base) > Base Goku (RoF) > Base Freeza > Base Goku (Post-BoG) = 1,280,000x 2-C

Baby Vegeta scale:

Golden Great Ape Baby > Baby Saga SS4 Goku > Golden Great Ape Goku = 3.2 trillion times (x10) > Super Baby 2 > Super Baby 1 > Baby Saga SS3 Goku > (400x) > Baby Saga Base Goku > SS1 Gohan > (50x) > Base Gohan > SS1 Goten > (50x> Base Goten > Rildo > Kid Buu = 320,000x 2-C

In the low-end, Goku Black's 10.24+ trillion times would have quite an AP advantage against Golden Great Ape Baby, who may or not be able to pull a win through his possession if Black lets him injure him in a ploy to buff himself up like he usually does.

However, if we consider Super Baby 2 to be Baby Vegeta's mutated version of Super Saiyan 3 like the GT Perfect Files (and his page) seemed to suggest (320 billion x 8), added with his Golden Great Ape Form (x10), Baby could scale all the way up to 25.6 trillion times 2-C. That'd be double Goku Black's initial AP, though he'd likely catch up to it quickly through his AD.

Basically, either of them could have a sizeable power advantage, but their in-character traits could end up costing them the win through their opponents' respectives haxes.

 

[Catbowtie]

I don't know much about GT but Black has shown himself to make large leaps of power in short amounts of time. Baby would literally just be his usual self because Black is Goku (Big surprise), and I think that Black would be pulling a lot of abilities that Baby wouldn't think Goku would do, which would catch him off guard. Is this the Black that hasn't unlocked Rose or can he do it but is starting in base?

 

[TheJokerNG]

I don't know much about GT but Black has shown himself to make large leaps of power in short amounts of time. Baby would literally just be his usual self because Black is Goku (Big surprise), and I think that Black would be pulling a lot of abilities that Baby wouldn't think Goku would do, which would catch him off guard. Is this the Black that hasn't unlocked Rose or can he do it but is starting in base?

It's the Black that hasn't unlocked Rose yet, but fought Vegeta to trigger it. His Rose form is actually the 4th Key, which I'm not using for the sake of not making this a stomp

 

[TegamiBachi25]

This honestly feels like a stomp, and I feel like we shouldn't do GT vs DBS matches since DBS anime got Kai accepted which might affect scaling but I'll wait until for more supporters

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Base Goku should be at least 400x 2-C by the end of BoG via VSBW profiles and scaling from the Kai Buuhan feat
Base Black would be 3,200,000,000 (3.2 billion times) 2-C via scaling above SSGSS Goku/Vegeta (8,000,000 x 400)

The GT scale depicted on the VSBW is as follows:
Golden Great Ape Baby > (400x) > Golden Great Ape Goku > Super Baby 2 (Compared to SS3) > (8x) > Baby Vegeta (is SS Vegeta) > SS3 Goku > (400x) > Base Goku > SS Gohan > SS Goten > (50x) > Base Goten > Baby > General Rildo > Kid Buu = SS3 Goku (Z) = 200x 2-C > (200x) > Buuhan = Baseline 2-C > (2x) > Base Goku (Z) >/= Ultimate Gohan = 0.5x 2-C

200 (Kid Buu) x 50 (SS Goten/Gohan) x 400 (SS3 Goku) = 4,000,000 = Baby Vegeta

Beyond that you delve into SS4/Golden Great Ape scaling which gets complicated. But if we assume Golden Great Ape is SS3 x 10 then GGA Baby would be 320,000,000x 2-C.

There is a statement provided in the Freeza vs Cell thread that claims Goku and Vegeta were limited to 1% of their power inside of Buu when Goku fought Gohan. If you take that then Baby's values would get inflated by 100x.

Baby Vegeta = 4,000,000x 2-C (400,000,000x 2-C w/ 1% statement)
Super Baby 2 = 32,000,000x 2-C (3,200,000,000x 2-C w/ 1% statement)
Golden Great Ape Baby (Assuming 10x SB2) = 320,000,000x 2-C (320,000,000,000x 2-C w/ 1% statement)

-

So via that scale I would say Base Black vs Super Baby 2 is probably equal stats and can be considered fair. Assuming we accept the 1% statement for Goku inside of Buu for scaling. If we don't accept the 1% statement then Base Black unga stomps Baby into oblivion.

 

[TegamiBachi25]

Thanks for the input.

I'm leaning towards baby since baby might just take possession of black if Black's RPL grows far too busted

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Honestly it depends. I can't comment much on GT scaling but the Black scaling is based on him against Vegeta and I don't think SB2 has any scaling against other characters who have the 3.2 billion figure.

Base Black >> Vegeta Blue = 3,200,000,000x 2-C​

We just don't have a hard numerical value for that. So all I can say is that Black scales significantly past 3.2 billion. That tells me that Black likely has a significant stat advantage over Baby but it's not a measurable one.

EDIT:
To illustrate what I mean here is Base Black against Vegeta Blue, someone with a 3.2 billion value. He takes zero damage and easily smashes Vegeta away. He treats him like a joke.

EDIT 2:
I might as well just churn out a Super scaling:

Base Black >> Post-U6 Vegeta > U6 Vegeta > (3 years) > RoF Vegeta > (1 year) > Post-BoG Goku = 400x 2-C​

Post-BoG Goku would be 3,200,000,000x 2-C if he hypothetically had SSGSS so Base Black is toying with a version of Vegeta who has several years more training and therefore significantly greater power than a hypothetical Post-BoG Goku Blue.

Comparatively my scale for GT only has Super Baby 2 at 3.2 billion. He doesn't scale above anyone who has the 3.2 billion figure.

So overall I feel like Base Black should be treated as far stronger than Baby due to having a pretty significant scaling chain above his value and stomping the person near the top of said chain.

 

[TegamiBachi25]

so... GT scaling chain is going through a CRT with the GT cast.

GT Goku Profile

Okay, as many in the Dragon Ball DIscussion Board know, I took upon myself the task of reworking the GT Goku profile. In the midst of that, I went through a lot of stuff to really get this nailed down, so here goes. As already accepted in a previous thread, all of the Toei Films are canon. I...

vsbattles.com

Will this affect the matchup?

 

[CryoTheMayo]

so... GT scaling chain is going through a CRT with the GT cast.

GT Goku Profile

Okay, as many in the Dragon Ball DIscussion Board know, I took upon myself the task of reworking the GT Goku profile. In the midst of that, I went through a lot of stuff to really get this nailed down, so here goes. As already accepted in a previous thread, all of the Toei Films are canon. I...

vsbattles.com

Will this affect the matchup?

If it were to pass (which it looks like it will) the scaling chain for GT would be:

Omega Shenron = SS4 Vegeta = SFPSS4 Goku (Shadow Dragons) > (10x) > SS4 Goku (Super 17) = Super 17 > (8x) > SS4 Goku (Baby) = Golden Great Ape Baby > (6,400x) > Super Baby 2 > (8x) > Baby Vegeta > (400x) > Base Goku (GT, Baby) > (5,000x) > Base Goku (GT, Black Star) = SS3 Goku (Z) = 200x 2-C​

There is that "Goku was 1% power inside of Buu" statement. If we factor that in then all values are inflated by 100x

Baby:
Baby Vegeta = 400,000,000x (400 million) to 40,000,000,000 (40 billion)

Super Baby 2 = 3,200,000,000x (3.2 billion) to 320,000,000,000x (320 billion)​

Golden Great Ape Baby = 20,480,000,000,000 (20.48 trillion) to 2,048,000,000,000,000 (2.048 quadrillion)​

Super 17:
Post-Energy Absorbed = 163,840,000,000,000x (163.84 trillion) to 16,384,000,000,000,000x (16.384 quadrillion)

Omega Shenron:
Syn= 163,840,000,000,000x (163.84 trillion) to 16,384,000,000,000,000x (16.384 quadrillion)

Omega = 1,638,400,000,000,000 (1.638 quadrillion) to 163,800,400,000,000,000x (163.8 quadrillion)​

-

So if we dismiss the 1% in Buu statement that was cited in Freeza vs Cell then Base Black vs Super Baby 2 remains valid. Otherwise all matchups here would be a stomp.

For future reference here is a rough scale for Super (Up to before UIS Goku):

Hit (VS Jiren) ? X20 Goku Blue (ToP) > (2x) > X10 Goku Blue (ToP) > (10x) > Goku Blue (ToP) > (50x) > SSG Goku (ToP) ~ Dyspo > Hit (Pre-Dyspo Adaptation) = Goku Blue (Post-Black) ~ Rose Goku Black (Pre-Scythe) ~ Vegeta Blue (Post-HTC) > (8,000,000x) > Base Black (Pre-Scythe) > Vegeta Blue (Pre-HTC) > Goku Blue (U6) > Goku Blue (RoF) > (8,000,000x) > Base Goku (RoF) > Base Goku (Post-BoG) > SS1 Goku (Post-SSG) > (2x) > SSG Goku (BoG) > (400x) > SS3 Goku (Post-Daima) > Ultimate Gohan = 0.5x 2-C​

BoG
SS3 Goku (Pre-SSG) = 0.5x 2-C

SSG Goku = 200x
SS1 Goku (Post-SSG) = 200x
Base Goku (Post-Limit Break) = 400x

RoF
SSGSS Goku = 3,200,000,000x (3.2 billion)

Black
Post-Black/Post-HTC SSGSS Goku/Vegeta = 25,600,000,000,000,000x (25.6 quadrillion)

ToP
Base Goku (Pre-UIS) = 160,000,000,000x (160 billion)

SS Goku (Pre-UIS) = 8,000,000,000,000x (8 trillion)​

SS2 Goku (Pre-UIS) = 16,000,000,000,000x (16 trillion)​

SS3 Goku (Pre-UIS) = 64,000,000,000,000 (64 trillion)​

​

SSG Goku (Pre-UIS) = 25,600,000,000,000,000x (25.6 quadrillion)

SSGSS Goku (Pre-UIS) = 1,280,000,000,000,000,000x (1.28 quintillion)​

X10 SSGSS Goku (Pre-UIS) = 12.800,000,000,000,000,000x (12.8 quintillion)​

X20 SSGSS Goku (Pre-UIS) = 25,600,000,000,000,000,000x (25.6 quintillion)​

 

[TheJokerNG]

If it were to pass (which it looks like it will) the scaling chain for GT would be:

Omega Shenron = SS4 Vegeta = SFPSS4 Goku (Shadow Dragons) > (10x) > SS4 Goku (Super 17) = Super 17 > (8x) > SS4 Goku (Baby) = Golden Great Ape Baby > (6,400x) > Super Baby 2 > (8x) > Baby Vegeta > (400x) > Base Goku (GT, Baby) > (5,000x) > Base Goku (GT, Black Star) = SS3 Goku (Z) = 200x 2-C​

There is that "Goku was 1% power inside of Buu" statement. If we factor that in then all values are inflated by 100x

Baby:
Baby Vegeta = 400,000,000x (400 million) to 40,000,000,000 (40 billion)

Super Baby 2 = 3,200,000,000x (3.2 billion) to 320,000,000,000x (320 billion)​

Golden Great Ape Baby = 20,480,000,000,000 (20.48 trillion) to 2,048,000,000,000,000 (2.048 quadrillion)​

Super 17:
Post-Energy Absorbed = 163,840,000,000,000x (163.84 trillion) to 16,384,000,000,000,000x (16.384 quadrillion)

Omega Shenron:
Syn= 163,840,000,000,000x (163.84 trillion) to 16,384,000,000,000,000x (16.384 quadrillion)

Omega = 1,638,400,000,000,000 (1.638 quadrillion) to 163,800,400,000,000,000x (163.8 quadrillion)​

-

So if we dismiss the 1% in Buu statement that was cited in Freeza vs Cell then Base Black vs Super Baby 2 remains valid. Otherwise all matchups here would be a stomp.

For future reference here is a rough scale for Super (Up to before UIS Goku):

Hit (VS Jiren) ? X20 Goku Blue (ToP) > (2x) > X10 Goku Blue (ToP) > (10x) > Goku Blue (ToP) > (50x) > SSG Goku (ToP) ~ Dyspo > Hit (Pre-Dyspo Adaptation) = Goku Blue (Post-Black) ~ Rose Goku Black (Pre-Scythe) ~ Vegeta Blue (Post-HTC) > (8,000,000x) > Base Black (Pre-Scythe) > Vegeta Blue (Pre-HTC) > Goku Blue (U6) > Goku Blue (RoF) > (8,000,000x) > Base Goku (RoF) > Base Goku (Post-BoG) > SS1 Goku (Post-SSG) > (2x) > SSG Goku (BoG) > (400x) > SS3 Goku (Post-Daima) > Ultimate Gohan = 0.5x 2-C​

Before I update the thread to accomodate the changes, I wanted to ask why you scale SS3 Goku to Ultimate Gohan instead of Kid Buu (Kai), who scales above Boohan's 1x 2-C?

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Before I update the thread to accomodate the changes, I wanted to ask why you scale SS3 Goku to Ultimate Gohan instead of Kid Buu (Kai), who scales above Boohan's 1x 2-C?

Because I'm unclear on the consensus for Kai Kid Buu's scaling. The safer option was scaling using Ultimate Gohan because of Daima explicitly scaling Goku above him.

 

[TheJokerNG]

Because I'm unclear on the consensus for Kai Kid Buu's scaling. The safer option was scaling using Ultimate Gohan because of Daima explicitly scaling Goku above him.

That makes sense. But I can reassure you that quite a few of the statements carried over from Z to Kai, meaning Kai Kid Buu still safely scales above the other Buus.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

That makes sense. But I can reassure you that quite a few of the statements carried over from Z to Kai, meaning Kai Kid Buu still safely scales above the other Buus.

If so then you can mentally double all of the DBS results..

 

[TheJokerNG]

If so then you can mentally double all of the DBS results..

Meaning Black either beats Super Baby 2 or gets stomped to the ground unless I allow Black Rosé, which simply turns into a stomp no matter which form Baby takes.

I see little point in keeping that thread up now.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Meaning Black either beats Super Baby 2 or gets stomped to the ground unless I allow Black Rosé, which simply turns into a stomp no matter which form Baby takes.

I see little point in keeping that thread up now.

Yeah more or less. I don't think GT vs Super has any really balanced matchups.

 

[TegamiBachi25]

Yeah more or less. I don't think GT vs Super has any really balanced matchups.

Unless if you try DBZ manga vs Toei Anime DBZ 4-C/High 4-C matchups but even those are few and far between

 

[RedReaper616]

I’ve got a thread idea for you two.

 

[RedReaper616]

Bam. Should be close.

16.384 Quadrillion (Super 17 Goku) Vs 25.6 Quadrillion (Post-HTC Vegeta Fight Goku Black).