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Godzilla: The Series calc and stat change

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ZillaJrKaijuKing

ZillaJrKaijuKing

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I made a calculation for a feat that involves creating a warm front.

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/U.../High_End_for_Zilla_Jr._creating_a_warm_front

I based this calculation on the actual dimensions of a warm front. I put a link at the end to a revised calculation that models the feat more accurately using a method shown to me over at Physics Forums.

If my realistic warm front assumption is acceptable, the feat would be Continent Level. Some calc team members already approved of the realistic warm front dimensions. I just need some more opinions on it as well as verification of the second calc.
 
I worded my statement poorly. I meant to refer to the realistic warm front dimensions. I think there were two other people who said that assumption was fine. The second calc I had to change because I made a mistake.
 
I think the issue is too few people know or care about this incarnation of Godzilla. What does the OBD think
 
While I wait for more responses, I guess I should point out that I found more evidence for the warm front dimensions I used.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weather_front#Cold_front

The cold air wedging underneath warmer air creates the strongest winds just above the ground surface, a phenomenon often associated with property-damaging wind gusts. This lift would then form a narrow line of showers and thunderstorms if enough moisture were present. However, this concept isn't an accurate description of the physical processes; upward motion is not produced because of warm air "ramping up" cold, dense air, rather, frontogenetical circulation is behind the upward forcing.

Frontogenesis (front creation) "is a meteorological process of tightening of horizontal temperature gradients to produce fronts."

There are two types of frontogenesis: mesoscale and synoptic scale

Mesoscale (typically 5 to hundreds of kilometers in width) involves exclusively cold fronts according to the previous link.

Synoptic scale (1000+ km) involves either warm or cold fronts.

Creating a warm front would have to be synoptic scale, which is consistent with the typical 1600 km width for air masses mentioned in my other sources.
 
More evidence for my warm front claim (I actually found this a little while ago but didn't get around to mentioning it here until now).

http://www.weather.gov/media/lmk/soo/frontogenesis_lmk2.pdf

This describes how frontogenesis works and its role in mesoscale storm formation.

Pages 2 and 13: Synoptic scale motion affects mesoscale weather patterns.

Page 12 has a pretty good diagram showing how this works.

This is what storm formation really looks like. Thus, simply heating and cooling the air in the storm's immediate vicinity isn't nearly enough.
 
I have commented.

Are you sure that the storm formation was not there for a visual effect though? With your suggested temperature reaching 10,000,000+ kelvin, even if the temperature went up in the air, everything surrounding Godzilla and the Monster would have been vaporized.

If over 40 petatons of energy was released by that beam blast, one wonders why the surface of the Earth isn't completely razed in the first place; all that energy has to be released somewhere, right?
 
Lina Shields said:
I have commented.
Are you sure that the storm formation was not there for a visual effect though? With your suggested temperature reaching 10,000,000+ kelvin, even if the temperature went up in the air, everything surrounding Godzilla and the Monster would have been vaporized.

If over 40 petatons of energy was released by that beam blast, one wonders why the surface of the Earth isn't completely razed in the first place; all that energy has to be released somewhere, right?
Click to expand...
The storm couldn't have been just a visual effect. It was described as a storm by the characters and there was even worry over what would happen once the storm hit the mainland.

There's also the fact that the ice breath countering the atomic breath means the surroundings wouldn't have felt the full brunt of the heat. Since storms form on top of cold fronts, that means the net effect on the air beneath the storm was a decrease rather than an increase in temperature.

I've also seen it stated that it isn't uncommon for fiction to ignore radiative heat transfer unless the writer chooses to show it. If anything, this is just more evidence for convection rather than radiation.

Plus, this is no less inconsistent than Final Wars Godzilla's supposedly Country Level atomic breath destroying a meteor causing an explosion that was Town to City Level at best judging by its size.

Also, I neglected to mention while I was pushing for the Continent Level upgrade that even the former low end radius of 17 km (really the low end should be 32 km, but 17 km is what I originally used) for the feat justifies an Island Level upgrade. Using a radius of 17 km, the surface temperature would be 650,000 K, the power output would be 500 Megatons of TNT per second, and the total energy output would be 10 Gigatons assuming that surface temperature (using a radius of 32 km, the numbers would be 777,000 K, 1 Gigaton per second, and 20 Gigatons in total from surface temperature).

Either way, the calculations should warrant a stat upgrade.
 
The Meteor calc is just straightforward application of KE to a moving rock

As far as we know here the air was heated to the horizon, thats all we can use really.. And about inconsistency, has there even been an actual threat to the planet in any Zilla related media? Anything beyond some tropical island exploding?
 
Gallavant said:
The Meteor calc is just straightforward application of KE to a moving rock
As far as we know here the air was heated to the horizon, thats all we can use really.. And about inconsistency, has there even been an actual threat to the planet in any Zilla related media? Anything beyond some tropical island exploding?
Click to expand...
I already posted many sources explaining why heating the air to the horizon isn't enough to create a storm. Simply heating and cooling a little bit of air is not only insufficient but also an inaccurate depiction of storm formation. You'd need sufficient atmospheric instability to trigger the convective process for storm formation. That's how we know the AoE is much bigger than you suggest.

There were threats to the world throughout the series. An alien invasion, monsters threatening to drain the oceans, even an invincible enemy or two.

If you're questioning whether or not Zilla Jr. has any other Continent Level feats, I believe creating the Crackler would take Country-Continent Level energy and Zilla Jr. was able to charge it up to the point it grew to twice its size, but that calculation had so many interpretations I didn't put them all in one post, so it didn't get a pass. That isn't even the kind of inconsistency I was talking about with Final Wars Godzilla, though (although the same "single feat" argument could be said of FW Godzilla, too).
 
I'd like to know the current standing of this calc. Some mods approved it but there seemed to be some concerns that my sources should have already addressed. Do I have enough information to validate my assumptions? I think I already addressed all of the concerns some had with the calc. Is anyone still against the change?
 
The second one. From what I've looked up on frontogenisis, there needs to be sufficient atmospheric instability to cause the convection necessary for storm formation, and this only happens on large scales. Plus, if the AoE were limited to the local area, the character statement that the storm was going to get worse especially wouldn't make sense.
 
Hopefully this will be the final nail on the coffin.

http://www.theweatherprediction.com/habyhints/49/

Any time you are near a mid-latitude cyclone you are in a baroclinic environment.

http://en.mimi.hu/m/meteorology/baroclinic_zone.html

A baroclinic zone is basically an area where there's a stark contrast between warm and cold air masses, which the same site defines as extending over millions of square kilometers (which constitutes synoptic scale).

Have I sufficiently defended my 800-km radius claim now?
 
No, because again, the heat spreading out that way has no contextual explanation and does not appear to work that way, as I have said many times now.
 
Alakabamm said:
No, because again, the heat spreading out that way has no contextual explanation and does not appear to work that way, as I have said many times now.
Click to expand...
What do you mean by "work that way"? Are we still talking about the sizes of the weather fronts or are you talking about the fact that my calculation uses radiation for the heat transfer method?

If the former, we may not have been given the sizes of the fronts, but this is how warm and cold fronts work regarding storm formation. Given the lack of information outside of a couple character statements, this is the claim with the least assumptions.

If the latter, I already explained that radiation was purely a means of getting a low end and that I'm aware it doesn't make sense here.
 
Any method of heat transfer doesn't make any sense because there isn't proof it occurs that way.
 
That makes no sense. At the very least the formation of a storm is a pretty clear indicator that convection/advection took place.

How is this different from accepted atom-splitting calculations for feats that don't feature nuclear explosions?
 
That's dependent on situation but splitting a single atom or a small amount doesn't actually release that much energy.

The reason nukes work is because of secondary explosions not primary ones.
 
The claim still doesn't make sense. Assuming no heat transfer method works is like assuming no heat transfer took place at all, and we already know for a fact that convection happened. I've seen calculations infer things to quantify feats, but this is practically a given.
 
Nope, because again, a massive heat strong enough to rival the core of the sun being unleashed and doing nothing else but creating a storm doesn't make sense by normal convection/radiation.
 
I've seen a lot of accepted calcs for feats that weren't entirely accurate with real-world physics but were still accepted because the feats were still partially quantifiable. I've even seen accepted calcs that are even more inconsistent than this scene. In this case we can at least say the ice breath mitigated the effects felt at sea level due to the way convection works.

Technically that same argument applies regardless of the radius I use anyway.
 
Accurate with real world physics? There are a lot of things that are at least somewhat inaccurate to real world physics regardless but what you are proposing doesn't work at all, hence, there is no point to applying those equations. If the equations don't match the phenomena, what is the point?

That said, a cloud did form so you can calc the cloud formation...but what you are suggesting in that second section is not accurate to what occurred.
 
Alakabamm said:
Accurate with real world physics? There are a lot of things that are at least somewhat inaccurate to real world physics regardless but what you are proposing doesn't work at all, hence, there is no point to applying those equations. If the equations don't match the phenomena, what is the point?
Click to expand...
For the first point, I don't see how this feat is worse in regard to physics than something like the calc giving multi-continent level energy to the oxygen destroyer despite that one revolving entirely around a physically nonsensical statement (splitting oxygen atoms into fluids). Or the Kids Next Door calc involving Father blasting fire all the way through the entire planet without even burning down the building around him.

For the second point, the calculation is just a heat transfer calc, and the feat pretty clearly depicts convection. The atomic breath was explicitly stated to create a warm front, so heat transfer is a given. The fact that the air was heated but not the sea or ground below implies heat transfer through convection because heat rises with convection (consistency), which is further supported by the storm formation and the fact that the atomic breath was supposed to parallel the ice breath (more consistency).

Even if it's not entirely consistent with real world physics (like the vast majority of feats in fiction), the feat consistently depicts a form of convection, but that only means my calc gives a low end because radiation is guaranteed to give a lower value here. That was the entire point. However the heat transfer happened, it can't be lower than what the calc gives. Whether or not the equation used in that part is strictly an accurate depiction of the feat makes no difference.

Ultimately, the calc is simply energy for temperature change + inverse square law (the very same thing that was already accepted to give the feat City Level status before but with a new radius and an additional step), so there's really no way the result could be lower.

Alakabamm said:
That said, a cloud did form so you can calc the cloud formation...but what you are suggesting in that second section is not accurate to what occurred.
Click to expand...
I tried that a long time ago. It gave something like Small City Level energy, if that.
 
Once more it does not "clearly depict convection" nor does it "clearly depict radiation" because the a) the sea failed to boil AT ALL b) the humans all around the fight weren't affected at all and c) an "ice beam" would not nearly be strong enough to counter temperatures rivaling the sun.

Failing that, it doesn't even fall into line for a convection calc or a radiation calc at all.

As for other feats, which, by the way, are not even topical to this thread, they depend on several things. First off, the only calc I saw so far was the KND Speed Calc, which did occur on screen. I didn't approve any destruction calc. Second, even if I did, I am like 80% sure they used the "cone argument" which is that the beam expanded throughout the earth, which is fair given the hole.

And no, it is not "energy for temperature change + inverse square law." It abuses way too many steps, uses a process which cannot have occurred given the vast heat you are suggesting and doesn't even make sense in the context of the surroundings. There is also the fact that, realistically, a beam at absolute zero wouldn't even do what you are suggesting. KE is an average not some weird cancellation effect.

So, again, these things have not been adequately answered by the show/the calc. While it is undeniable that a temperature change occurred for the storm, you cannot prove convection/radiation given what you have.
 
Alakabamm said:
Once more it does not "clearly depict convection"
Click to expand...
We can see it happening in the spiraling winds that shape the cloud. There's visual evidence supporting it, despite it being greatly accelerated.

Alakabamm said:
nor does it "clearly depict radiation" because the a) the sea failed to boil AT ALL b) the humans all around the fight weren't affected at all and
Click to expand...
I've already acknowledged radiation isn't actually an accurate depiction of the feat. The rest I addressed in my last comment.

Alakabamm said:
c) an "ice beam" would not nearly be strong enough to counter temperatures rivaling the sun.
Click to expand...
By that logic Samus' ice beam freezing an actual star should be removed from her profile.

Alakabamm said:
And no, it is not "energy for temperature change + inverse square law." It abuses way too many steps, uses a process which cannot have occurred given the vast heat you are suggesting and doesn't even make sense in the context of the surroundings. There is also the fact that, realistically, a beam at absolute zero wouldn't even do what you are suggesting. KE is an average not some weird cancellation effect.
Click to expand...
The accepted calculation for this feat measures the amount of energy required to raise the temperature of a large volume of air (and gives the power output of a hydrogen bomb but was still accepted).

The important part of my updated calculation (without the extra parts building from it) is just that, but for 1 cubic meter of air a certain (now larger) radial distance from the source. Hence a baseline for the energy needed.
 
You can't just "discard" radiation. It happens alongside convection. Convection wouldn't remove that heat in a reasonable timespan. Just neglecting what you don't like isn't accurate.

And "swirling" of clouds yet no other effect on the environment is hardly accurate, again...

"By that logic..." No, because Samus actually froze the star. You are POSTULATING the ice beam did that. By conventional physics, it never can. An actual showing >>>>> postulation. And once more, quit comparing this to non-topical things. If you do it again this thread is closed.

The "accepted" calculation is different, once again, in that it only looks at what occurred not your own postulations. Your "updated version" is not the same thing in the least. Stop portraying it as that. It is ridiculous. I have given more than enough differences between the two and you continue to ignore them.
 
If you mean the volcano one, it was debunked a while ago due to inconsistent scaling and inability to convert volume of ash cloud to solid ash ejecta. It should still be somewhere between City and Mountain Level and a much weaker kaiju survived it, though.

Aside from that, no.
 
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