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Matt seems to make sense here.
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God of War: Massive Revisions and Upgrades
- Thread starter WindGodAcheron
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I want to say that I'm ok with this but I'm afraid of a shitstorm
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I don't know about God of War so I can't say which side is makeing sense
But y'all need to stop treating the other side as inferior in your tone. We fight wars with evidence, not "but you hate God of War" and "You're just a fanboy lol"
Stop treating yourselves as the center of truth and argue properly.
But y'all need to stop treating the other side as inferior in your tone. We fight wars with evidence, not "but you hate God of War" and "You're just a fanboy lol"
Stop treating yourselves as the center of truth and argue properly.
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This here is the epitome of this thread as a whole. For you to interpret Ysmir's legend as 2-C requires such a blatant cavalier disregard for the whole cosmology of the game that it's honestly astounding.WindGodAcheron said:
All realms inhabit the same physical space, our planet. Which mind you, we don't even know is round in the new games. It's most likely flat given it has always been flat, and the legend of the wolves chasing the sun and moon around Midgard indicates they orbit around the planet.
So flooding the nine worlds is likely just a High 6-A feat. That is, assuming this feat actually happened. A big theme of the new God of War is Kratos not buying the Norse Gods' bullshit like he used to believe the Greek Gods. Every single time we encounter a myth he points out that it's likely just a tale / or an exaggeration. The notable exception is the Midgard Serpent.
It's likely that Odin didn't create the Nine Realms from Ymir's corpse and that is just propaganda.
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This is a common argument, and it's as bull as it's common. No, Ceto never killed Uranus. She merely knocked him back with an uppercut. She didn't hit his head off his body either, as can be seen in the slowed down screenshot. Absolutely nothing suggests that Uranus was killed on that scene. Unlike what's shown with Ceto, who dissipates into the oceans when she is killed, and Ourea, who loses a limb, all we're shown is Uranus being temporarily knocked back.
I have to pointu'd need to be really dimwitted to actually believe this, considering Uranus's wife, Gaia, 'was literally not even born yet when that fight took place. Gaia was spawned by the primordial, Chaos, just like the Furies were. She is the personification of the Earth and mother of Cronos. She only came to be once the Earth did, and considering Uranus and Ceto were fighting on an empty and timeless void before the Earth was even brought forth, you'd have to ignore all reasonable forms of logic to make Uranus dying there legit.
To put a dot on this claim, Gyges, the son of Gaia and Uranus, actually met his father on person. Uranus was repulsed by him and banished him to Tartarus - this after the primordial war, because Gaia was born after/during that war, and Gyges is her son. So this claim is completely baseless and debunked by Gyges's statement.
2.
First of all, the statement can't be a metaphor when the object the narrator is speaking of (Nyx) is already in the same sentence. The narrator said, "on the edge of the Aegean, where the Great God Helios banishes Nyx from the nightsky".
Had he said "Nyx, the nightsky", that'd be a different situation, because it'd be treating Nyx and the nightsky as interchangeable terms. But no, the narrator states that Helios banishes Nyx,FROM the nightsky. As in, object X is being banned from object Y. Basic text interpretation and basic grammar, people.
They aren't talking about the sky whenever they mention Zeus's name. It literally always refers to Zeus, which is extra relevant to Nyx because she is also a sky goddess.
When they talk about Ares, they aren't talking about war. They're talking about...Ares.
When they talk about Poseidon, they are not talking about the ocean. They are talking about...Poseidon.
This by itself already destroys any allegations about metaphors, but let's keep going because, as I said, I like refuting this.
There are roughly six references to Nyx on the God of War franchise, let's revisit all of them:
I have to pointu'd need to be really dimwitted to actually believe this, considering Uranus's wife, Gaia, 'was literally not even born yet when that fight took place. Gaia was spawned by the primordial, Chaos, just like the Furies were. She is the personification of the Earth and mother of Cronos. She only came to be once the Earth did, and considering Uranus and Ceto were fighting on an empty and timeless void before the Earth was even brought forth, you'd have to ignore all reasonable forms of logic to make Uranus dying there legit.
To put a dot on this claim, Gyges, the son of Gaia and Uranus, actually met his father on person. Uranus was repulsed by him and banished him to Tartarus - this after the primordial war, because Gaia was born after/during that war, and Gyges is her son. So this claim is completely baseless and debunked by Gyges's statement.
2.
First of all, the statement can't be a metaphor when the object the narrator is speaking of (Nyx) is already in the same sentence. The narrator said, "on the edge of the Aegean, where the Great God Helios banishes Nyx from the nightsky".
Had he said "Nyx, the nightsky", that'd be a different situation, because it'd be treating Nyx and the nightsky as interchangeable terms. But no, the narrator states that Helios banishes Nyx,FROM the nightsky. As in, object X is being banned from object Y. Basic text interpretation and basic grammar, people.
They aren't talking about the sky whenever they mention Zeus's name. It literally always refers to Zeus, which is extra relevant to Nyx because she is also a sky goddess.
When they talk about Ares, they aren't talking about war. They're talking about...Ares.
When they talk about Poseidon, they are not talking about the ocean. They are talking about...Poseidon.
This by itself already destroys any allegations about metaphors, but let's keep going because, as I said, I like refuting this.
There are roughly six references to Nyx on the God of War franchise, let's revisit all of them:
- A statement on the official God of War 2 promotional website, saying Nyx and Chaos created the universe (which got ultimately retconned)
- Two concept arts of Nyx made by the lead Ascension artist (the same game that says she is banished by Helios), both of them showing that Nyx, the literal goddess, is still alive when the Olympians are ruling.
- The description of the Armor of Hades, an armor set forged for the Warriors of Hades, thatstates the armor was forged under Nyx and Erebus's watchful eyes. Yet again an Ascension reference showing Nyx still alive on the Olympian era.
- A statue of Nyx guarding a universe controlled by her, as confirmed by WoG. Again, literally Nyx.
- And finally and most importantly: the narrator of the Troy level saying Helios is banishing Nyx from the nightsky. This is the first (and last) time Nyx's name is ever uttered in the history of the God of War franchise.
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Also, I love how your argument is literally nothing but "Helios is a weak god while Nyx is a primordial", when Helios is literally one of the strongest gods in Olympus, and the entire argument is based around Helios being strong because he defeated Nyx.
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Oh good, another text wall.
Yes, Ceto did kill Uranus. The whole theme of the opening is that as each Primordial died, something was formed. When Ceto punches Uranus the stars burst into life.
Gaia came to be alongside the Earth which was formed by the Primordials. No need to call me a dimwitt for simply knowing the basic lore of the games. Chaos as a sentient being is hardly confirmed to exist outside of the opening of Ascension. In which case it's one of the Primordials that killed each other to create the universe.
You are just making a huge post trying to argue based on a single line. "Helios banishes Nyx from the night sky". In which case, I must say again, isn't literal. It's basic poetry. Greek Myths often use the name of the gods to refer to the natural phenomena even when they're not present. Common sense and literary interpretation here.
The night disappears when the sun rises. Doesn't mean Helios is stronger than Nyx, a character we know literally nothing about, mind you.
Nyx and Chaos didn't create the universe. Chaos was just one among the Primordials who created the contents of the universe as a whole by a prolonged war, puching each other repeatedly and dying one by one.
Also, manipulated twitter Q&As do not count. They never have and never will.
Yes, Ceto did kill Uranus. The whole theme of the opening is that as each Primordial died, something was formed. When Ceto punches Uranus the stars burst into life.
Gaia came to be alongside the Earth which was formed by the Primordials. No need to call me a dimwitt for simply knowing the basic lore of the games. Chaos as a sentient being is hardly confirmed to exist outside of the opening of Ascension. In which case it's one of the Primordials that killed each other to create the universe.
You are just making a huge post trying to argue based on a single line. "Helios banishes Nyx from the night sky". In which case, I must say again, isn't literal. It's basic poetry. Greek Myths often use the name of the gods to refer to the natural phenomena even when they're not present. Common sense and literary interpretation here.
The night disappears when the sun rises. Doesn't mean Helios is stronger than Nyx, a character we know literally nothing about, mind you.
Nyx and Chaos didn't create the universe. Chaos was just one among the Primordials who created the contents of the universe as a whole by a prolonged war, puching each other repeatedly and dying one by one.
Also, manipulated twitter Q&As do not count. They never have and never will.
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I suggest everyone try not to be confrontational here. Just address points. Don't start to dabble in personal attacks or shit won't get done.
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By actual feats Helios is absolutely weak. And do you realize that this website is already stupendously generous with God of War. There are so many low-ends that I could pick apart if I really wanted to downplay, and they would be based on the games themselves and not guidebooks or twitter answers.WindGodAcheron said:
Hell, even if you stick to just God of War 4, you have Kratos being slower than early-game Atreus' arrow both by his own admission and Cory Balrog's explanation.
Of course, Kratos has much better speed feats but that alone goes to show that the intent isn't to say that Kratos can destroy a universe. The God of War gods with the exception of the Primordials are all bound to a mythological flat-earth setting.
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I apologize for my initial outburst, but it is because this isn't the first time I've seen this person arguing for Universal Kratos. This is something that he pushes for over a year now, and I know how tedious it can be to discuss with him.Dragonmasterxyz said:
I'm trying to be more levelheaded and objective in my recent posts.
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> Yes, Ceto did kill Uranus. The whole theme of the opening is that as each Primordial died, something was formed. When Ceto punches Uranus the stars burst into life.
No, she did not. Gyges, Uranus's son, met his father after the Primordial War took place. There is literally no statement about Uranus dying. please stop this headcanon. Give me a statement that he died. You can't do that. I gave you a dozen statements that confirm he survived.
> You are just making a huge post trying to argue based on a single line. "Helios banishes Nyx from the night sky". In which case, I must say again, isn't literal. It's basic poetry. Greek Myths often use the name of the gods to refer to the natural phenomena even when they're not present. Common sense and literary interpretation here.
the statement can't be a metaphor when the object the narrator is speaking of (Nyx) is already in the same sentence. The narrator said, "on the edge of the Aegean, where the Great God Helios banishes Nyx from the nightsky".
Had he said "Nyx, the nightsky", that'd be a different situation, because it'd be treating Nyx and the nightsky as interchangeable terms. But no, the narrator states that Helios banishes Nyx,FROM the nightsky. As in, object X is being banned from object Y.
Please, make use of your common sense and stop arguing this.
No, she did not. Gyges, Uranus's son, met his father after the Primordial War took place. There is literally no statement about Uranus dying. please stop this headcanon. Give me a statement that he died. You can't do that. I gave you a dozen statements that confirm he survived.
> You are just making a huge post trying to argue based on a single line. "Helios banishes Nyx from the night sky". In which case, I must say again, isn't literal. It's basic poetry. Greek Myths often use the name of the gods to refer to the natural phenomena even when they're not present. Common sense and literary interpretation here.
the statement can't be a metaphor when the object the narrator is speaking of (Nyx) is already in the same sentence. The narrator said, "on the edge of the Aegean, where the Great God Helios banishes Nyx from the nightsky".
Had he said "Nyx, the nightsky", that'd be a different situation, because it'd be treating Nyx and the nightsky as interchangeable terms. But no, the narrator states that Helios banishes Nyx,FROM the nightsky. As in, object X is being banned from object Y.
Please, make use of your common sense and stop arguing this.
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> Nyx and Chaos didn't create the universe. Chaos was just one among the Primordials who created the contents of the universe as a whole by a prolonged war, puching each other repeatedly and dying one by one.
I never said they did. Stop strawmanning. I said them creating the universe was retconned.
I never said they did. Stop strawmanning. I said them creating the universe was retconned.
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Wind, please make an effort to stop being so aggressive. It's hard to be levelheaded when your opposite in the debate isn't.
For the Gyges point, God of War practically retcons everything with each game. The comics aren't written by the same team as Ascension, and in the later they depict Uranus as one of the Primordials who died creating the universe.
Meanwhile, in other games, they depict Uranus and Gaia as essentially equal and just as old. The very line that calls Uranus "Father of the Universe" calls Gaia the "Mother of the Earth" with equal importance. Considering how the God of War Cosmology works, with its flat earth and small orbitting sun, it's blatantly obvious that Uranus represents the universe as a sort of firmament. How large it is isn't exactly quantifiable, but it's most definitely not as large as the real world universe. This is just like Percy Jackson' Uranus not being 3-A simply for being the god of the heavens which include the stars.
It's simply too inconsistence.
Again you continue to be absolutely literal and deny the very possiblity of any other reading. The reading that I offer is that Nyx - the night - is gone whenever Helios - the sun - rises in the morning.
It is far more logical and reasonable than assuming that the process of night and day in the God of War setting involves a literal brawl between two deities that happens every day with Helios always winning.
That is just absurd
For the Gyges point, God of War practically retcons everything with each game. The comics aren't written by the same team as Ascension, and in the later they depict Uranus as one of the Primordials who died creating the universe.
Meanwhile, in other games, they depict Uranus and Gaia as essentially equal and just as old. The very line that calls Uranus "Father of the Universe" calls Gaia the "Mother of the Earth" with equal importance. Considering how the God of War Cosmology works, with its flat earth and small orbitting sun, it's blatantly obvious that Uranus represents the universe as a sort of firmament. How large it is isn't exactly quantifiable, but it's most definitely not as large as the real world universe. This is just like Percy Jackson' Uranus not being 3-A simply for being the god of the heavens which include the stars.
It's simply too inconsistence.
Again you continue to be absolutely literal and deny the very possiblity of any other reading. The reading that I offer is that Nyx - the night - is gone whenever Helios - the sun - rises in the morning.
It is far more logical and reasonable than assuming that the process of night and day in the God of War setting involves a literal brawl between two deities that happens every day with Helios always winning.
That is just absurd
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So why are you bringing it up in the first place. "Helios is Universal because he beat Nyx who is Universal based on feats that are retconned so they don't matter".WindGodAcheron said:
What?
If you admit that Nyx was retconned, why can't you admit that Uranus was too? In the primary canon of the games he's depicted as dying in the opening of Ascension. If not dying, then certainly being significantly wounded and diminushed, as he goes from being an entity so large his body gives birth to all stars in the universe, to a being small enough to be parallel and comparable to Earth.
The two ideas don't match. Specially since he is defeated by Cronos, a guy who's most definitely not Low 2-C. The strongest of the Titans, Atlas, is forced to lift the flat Earth over his shoulders and he cannot break free. If he could destroy universes getting off his imprisonment would surely be easy.
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> For the Gyges point, God of War practically retcons everything with each game. The comics aren't written by the same team as Ascension, and in the later they depict Uranus as one of the Primordials who died creating the universe.
Uranus did not die. This is headcanon that is based on nothing, and not stated anywhere. It's literally based on a scene where he is shown being knocked down by a punch once, and is obscured from view. Uranus was stated by the exact same game's promotional material to have survived. Literally every single source in the world that relates to God of War says Uranus survived. Even the new game, that states the Cycle of Patricide traces to the beginning of time.
> Meanwhile, in other games, they depict Uranus and Gaia as essentially equal and just as old. The very line that calls Uranus "Father of the Universe" calls Gaia the "Mother of the Earth" with equal importance.
Uranus and Gaia are never portrayed as equals, Uranus torn Gyges from Gaia's loins and cast him to Tartarus. Literally that statement is Gyges saying he was born from the guy who created the universe and his wife who personifies the world. How that portrays them as equals? I have literally no idea.
> Considering how the God of War Cosmology works, with its flat earth and small orbitting sun, it's blatantly obvious that Uranus represents the universe as a sort of firmament. How large it is isn't exactly quantifiable
Blatantly false.
Even as far back as God of War I, Ares created a dimension that contained countless stars, and a swirling galaxy inside. Whether it's illusionary or not is irrelevant, the point here is that, in order to replicate a galaxy and stars, Ares would need to know that such things exist and what they look like.
The long time lead writer of the series confirmed that the universe had galaxies in it that were all spawned by Uranus as we covered before.
The Antikythera mechanism, a real life old computer that calculated astronomical positions,exists in God of War and has the exact same function as we've covered before in this post. Meaning the God of War universe has a similar arrangement to the real universe.
Nyx's dimension is stated to be a mirror universe of our own universe, and it contains a real moo.
About the Sun Chariot of Helios, it's not the literal Sun. It's just Helios in his god form, personifying the Su. The actual Sun still exists in the God of War universe, it's just overriden by Helios, who takes precedence in the sky. Which is why it is blotted out after he dies. He is a personification of it, of sorts.
God of War: Ascension mentions the core of the sun being the forging source of Hyperion's Spear, as we've gone over before. Once again showing that the Sun is a literal star in the sky too. And likewise Ascension is the same game that proved a legit universe for the series beyond any doubt.
It's a proper universe. This is factual until you prove otherwise. Saying things like "it's a flat earth" which have no relationship with what lies outside that flat earth is literally a meaningless argument.
> Again you continue to be absolutely literal and deny the very possiblity of any other reading. The reading that I offer is that Nyx - the night - is gone whenever Helios - the sun - rises in the morning.
The fact is that your reading is wrong, considering Nyx's name has never been used this way. Literally no god in the series has had their name used this away with the single exception of Hades, and the tendence to refer to an underworldly hell as "Hades" is something that traces even to the Bible itself, as well as original mythology. It's not exchangeable with any other God.
If we were to go by this logic then every single mention of every god is ambiguous.
Lastly, the syntax of the sentence already debunks any possibility of it being a metaphor. The narrator says that Nyx is banished FROM the nightsky. Not that she is the nightsky. So again, please prove it with evidence instead of offering alternate explanations that are baseless.
> 'It is far more logical and reasonable than assuming that the process of night and day in the God of War setting involves a literal brawl between two deities that happens every day with Helios always winning.
Considering it's literally stated to be so, yes it is. Prove otherwise.
Uranus did not die. This is headcanon that is based on nothing, and not stated anywhere. It's literally based on a scene where he is shown being knocked down by a punch once, and is obscured from view. Uranus was stated by the exact same game's promotional material to have survived. Literally every single source in the world that relates to God of War says Uranus survived. Even the new game, that states the Cycle of Patricide traces to the beginning of time.
> Meanwhile, in other games, they depict Uranus and Gaia as essentially equal and just as old. The very line that calls Uranus "Father of the Universe" calls Gaia the "Mother of the Earth" with equal importance.
Uranus and Gaia are never portrayed as equals, Uranus torn Gyges from Gaia's loins and cast him to Tartarus. Literally that statement is Gyges saying he was born from the guy who created the universe and his wife who personifies the world. How that portrays them as equals? I have literally no idea.
> Considering how the God of War Cosmology works, with its flat earth and small orbitting sun, it's blatantly obvious that Uranus represents the universe as a sort of firmament. How large it is isn't exactly quantifiable
Blatantly false.
Even as far back as God of War I, Ares created a dimension that contained countless stars, and a swirling galaxy inside. Whether it's illusionary or not is irrelevant, the point here is that, in order to replicate a galaxy and stars, Ares would need to know that such things exist and what they look like.
The long time lead writer of the series confirmed that the universe had galaxies in it that were all spawned by Uranus as we covered before.
The Antikythera mechanism, a real life old computer that calculated astronomical positions,exists in God of War and has the exact same function as we've covered before in this post. Meaning the God of War universe has a similar arrangement to the real universe.
Nyx's dimension is stated to be a mirror universe of our own universe, and it contains a real moo.
About the Sun Chariot of Helios, it's not the literal Sun. It's just Helios in his god form, personifying the Su. The actual Sun still exists in the God of War universe, it's just overriden by Helios, who takes precedence in the sky. Which is why it is blotted out after he dies. He is a personification of it, of sorts.
God of War: Ascension mentions the core of the sun being the forging source of Hyperion's Spear, as we've gone over before. Once again showing that the Sun is a literal star in the sky too. And likewise Ascension is the same game that proved a legit universe for the series beyond any doubt.
It's a proper universe. This is factual until you prove otherwise. Saying things like "it's a flat earth" which have no relationship with what lies outside that flat earth is literally a meaningless argument.
> Again you continue to be absolutely literal and deny the very possiblity of any other reading. The reading that I offer is that Nyx - the night - is gone whenever Helios - the sun - rises in the morning.
The fact is that your reading is wrong, considering Nyx's name has never been used this way. Literally no god in the series has had their name used this away with the single exception of Hades, and the tendence to refer to an underworldly hell as "Hades" is something that traces even to the Bible itself, as well as original mythology. It's not exchangeable with any other God.
If we were to go by this logic then every single mention of every god is ambiguous.
Lastly, the syntax of the sentence already debunks any possibility of it being a metaphor. The narrator says that Nyx is banished FROM the nightsky. Not that she is the nightsky. So again, please prove it with evidence instead of offering alternate explanations that are baseless.
> 'It is far more logical and reasonable than assuming that the process of night and day in the God of War setting involves a literal brawl between two deities that happens every day with Helios always winning.
Considering it's literally stated to be so, yes it is. Prove otherwise.
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Honestly Matt makes more sense here.
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Uranus did die. All the other Primordials died. It's what happened in the scene. Why would he be the sole exception? Just a bit of common sense.
Uranus and Gaia are of equal importance to the Titans and giants. He is not qualitatively superior to her to the point where he is universal and she is planetary. But I guess God of War has an infinite planet considering the "endless" Underworld was going to be destroyed by Earth crashing onto it...
Seriously though, no evidence that Uranus lived in that scene and that the other versions aren't retconned.
The cosmology isn't false. It's how it is in every game. Flat Earth. Sun smaller than Earth. We literally see the sun fall from the sky in Chains of Olympus, and it's Helios' temple carried by his steeds.
The Milky Way galaxy exists in Greek Mythology and it's not a real galaxy comparable to our own. All the pocket dimension feats are either illusions, or grossly inconsistent with everything else.
The core of the sun forging Hyperion's spear isn't a great feat, specially since the sun in God of War is much smaller...
There is nothing that proves otherwise.
And no, nothing is stated to literally be the case. That is your interpretation of the event, not what's actually said. IT is just the day - night cycle. That's it. You are just arguing semantics.
Uranus and Gaia are of equal importance to the Titans and giants. He is not qualitatively superior to her to the point where he is universal and she is planetary. But I guess God of War has an infinite planet considering the "endless" Underworld was going to be destroyed by Earth crashing onto it...
Seriously though, no evidence that Uranus lived in that scene and that the other versions aren't retconned.
The cosmology isn't false. It's how it is in every game. Flat Earth. Sun smaller than Earth. We literally see the sun fall from the sky in Chains of Olympus, and it's Helios' temple carried by his steeds.
The Milky Way galaxy exists in Greek Mythology and it's not a real galaxy comparable to our own. All the pocket dimension feats are either illusions, or grossly inconsistent with everything else.
The core of the sun forging Hyperion's spear isn't a great feat, specially since the sun in God of War is much smaller...
There is nothing that proves otherwise.
And no, nothing is stated to literally be the case. That is your interpretation of the event, not what's actually said. IT is just the day - night cycle. That's it. You are just arguing semantics.
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> So why are you bringing it up in the first place. "Helios is Universal because he beat Nyx who is Universal based on feats that are retconned so they don't matter".
Please, for the last time, stop strawmanning what I say. I literally never scaled Nyx to universal based on that feat, I scaled her because she is equal to the other primordials. That feat is retconned and I never used it.
> If you admit that Nyx was retconned, why can't you admit that Uranus was too?
Because there is zero evidence he got retconned other than assumptions that are baseless and have nothing to cement them.
> In the primary canon of the games he's depicted as dying in the opening of Ascensio
He didn't die. He was knocked down. All the other Primordials are shown losing body parts or literally dispelling, Uranus literally only gets knocked down and you can see his body form is still intact in the scene. Last time I say this: prove Uranus died.
> not dying, then certainly being significantly wounded and diminushed, as he goes from being an entity so large his body gives birth to all stars in the universe, to a being small enough to be parallel and comparable to Earth.
This is again pulled out of nowhere and never suggested in any form of lore, game, guide, WoG, anything.
> The two ideas don't match. Specially since he is defeated by Cronos, a guy who's most definitely not Low 2-C. The strongest of the Titans, Atlas, is forced to lift the flat Earth over his shoulders and he cannot break free. If he could destroy universes getting off his imprisonment would surely be easy.
Atlas holds up the universe in his shoulder. It's literally stated in the OP with the evidence to back it up.
Please, for the last time, stop strawmanning what I say. I literally never scaled Nyx to universal based on that feat, I scaled her because she is equal to the other primordials. That feat is retconned and I never used it.
> If you admit that Nyx was retconned, why can't you admit that Uranus was too?
Because there is zero evidence he got retconned other than assumptions that are baseless and have nothing to cement them.
> In the primary canon of the games he's depicted as dying in the opening of Ascensio
He didn't die. He was knocked down. All the other Primordials are shown losing body parts or literally dispelling, Uranus literally only gets knocked down and you can see his body form is still intact in the scene. Last time I say this: prove Uranus died.
> not dying, then certainly being significantly wounded and diminushed, as he goes from being an entity so large his body gives birth to all stars in the universe, to a being small enough to be parallel and comparable to Earth.
This is again pulled out of nowhere and never suggested in any form of lore, game, guide, WoG, anything.
> The two ideas don't match. Specially since he is defeated by Cronos, a guy who's most definitely not Low 2-C. The strongest of the Titans, Atlas, is forced to lift the flat Earth over his shoulders and he cannot break free. If he could destroy universes getting off his imprisonment would surely be easy.
Atlas holds up the universe in his shoulder. It's literally stated in the OP with the evidence to back it up.
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Also you're still being very confrontational in your posts.
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Let us all calm down and proceed shall we ?
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I am not strawmaning what you say. It's literally what you argue. You want to scale Helios to Nyx while also using retconned feats to make Nyx universal. When she's not. We know nothing about her.
There isn't "zero evidence" that Uranus got retconned. The evidence is literally in the games themselves. Uranus is shown dying alongside other Primordials in the opening for Ascension. It's right there.
All the other primordials died. The story doesn't need to spell it out. It's clearly what happened.
It's not literal but it's the only reasonable way I can see Atlas simultaneously being a universal Primordial and a deity of the Titans' level.
No, Atlas holds the planet. Arguing he holds the universe is incorrect as we literally make him hold the Earth in Chains of Olympus contradicting all other claims.
Seriously, it's in the games themselves. It's not hard to see what's in the games. As opposed to old websites, twitter exchanges, old manual / guidebooks, and facebook posts.
There isn't "zero evidence" that Uranus got retconned. The evidence is literally in the games themselves. Uranus is shown dying alongside other Primordials in the opening for Ascension. It's right there.
All the other primordials died. The story doesn't need to spell it out. It's clearly what happened.
It's not literal but it's the only reasonable way I can see Atlas simultaneously being a universal Primordial and a deity of the Titans' level.
No, Atlas holds the planet. Arguing he holds the universe is incorrect as we literally make him hold the Earth in Chains of Olympus contradicting all other claims.
Seriously, it's in the games themselves. It's not hard to see what's in the games. As opposed to old websites, twitter exchanges, old manual / guidebooks, and facebook posts.
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> Uranus did die. All the other Primordials died. It's what happened in the scene. Why would he be the sole exception? Just a bit of common sense.
The claim that all the Primordials died is blatantly false. Nyx survived the war.
The common sense is that Uranus was the closest thing to a winner of the war, hence why he'd survive. You're again trying to apply utterly unrelated things like "the others died" to Uranus, when my entire point is that he's one of the people who survived. This is massively circular. Please find evidence that Uranus died. This is all I ask you to try to do.
> Uranus and Gaia are of equal importance to the Titans and giants. He is not qualitatively superior to her to the point where he is universal and she is planetary.
Yeah, he isn't that superior to her. So what? Are you really trying to argue AoE as a legit reason for why they're not equals? AoE is literally stated in the second novel to be irrelevant to power, small Zeus is stated to be have more condensed power than giant Zeus.
> But I guess God of War has an infinite planet considering the "endless" Underworld was going to be destroyed by Earth crashing onto it...
Also by the universe falling on top of it. Literally stated that everything would be reduced to a void. Please read my OP thoroughly.
> Seriously though, no evidence that Uranus lived in that scene and that the other versions aren't retconned.
Uranus was stated by multiple material released with the exact same game he first appeared i to have survived. Please provide evidence that Uranus died. Stop reversing the burden of proof. I've already given all the proof necessary to say he survived.
> The cosmology isn't false. It's how it is in every game. Flat Earth. Sun smaller than Earth. We literally see the sun fall from the sky in Chains of Olympus, and it's Helios' temple carried by his steeds.
I also debunked that.
About the Sun Chariot of Helios, it's not the literal Sun. It's just Helios in his god form, personifying the Su. The actual Sun still exists in the God of War universe, it's just overriden by Helios, who takes precedence in the sky. Which is why it is blotted out after he dies. He is a personification of it, of sorts.
God of War: Ascension mentions the core of the sun being the forging source of Hyperion's Spear, as we've gone over before. Once again showing that the Sun is a literal star in the sky too. And likewise Ascension is the same game that proved a legit universe for the series beyond any doubt.Yes, it is flat. Nobody ever denied this. That's irrelevant to the universe.
The claim that all the Primordials died is blatantly false. Nyx survived the war.
The common sense is that Uranus was the closest thing to a winner of the war, hence why he'd survive. You're again trying to apply utterly unrelated things like "the others died" to Uranus, when my entire point is that he's one of the people who survived. This is massively circular. Please find evidence that Uranus died. This is all I ask you to try to do.
> Uranus and Gaia are of equal importance to the Titans and giants. He is not qualitatively superior to her to the point where he is universal and she is planetary.
Yeah, he isn't that superior to her. So what? Are you really trying to argue AoE as a legit reason for why they're not equals? AoE is literally stated in the second novel to be irrelevant to power, small Zeus is stated to be have more condensed power than giant Zeus.
> But I guess God of War has an infinite planet considering the "endless" Underworld was going to be destroyed by Earth crashing onto it...
Also by the universe falling on top of it. Literally stated that everything would be reduced to a void. Please read my OP thoroughly.
> Seriously though, no evidence that Uranus lived in that scene and that the other versions aren't retconned.
Uranus was stated by multiple material released with the exact same game he first appeared i to have survived. Please provide evidence that Uranus died. Stop reversing the burden of proof. I've already given all the proof necessary to say he survived.
> The cosmology isn't false. It's how it is in every game. Flat Earth. Sun smaller than Earth. We literally see the sun fall from the sky in Chains of Olympus, and it's Helios' temple carried by his steeds.
I also debunked that.
About the Sun Chariot of Helios, it's not the literal Sun. It's just Helios in his god form, personifying the Su. The actual Sun still exists in the God of War universe, it's just overriden by Helios, who takes precedence in the sky. Which is why it is blotted out after he dies. He is a personification of it, of sorts.
God of War: Ascension mentions the core of the sun being the forging source of Hyperion's Spear, as we've gone over before. Once again showing that the Sun is a literal star in the sky too. And likewise Ascension is the same game that proved a legit universe for the series beyond any doubt.Yes, it is flat. Nobody ever denied this. That's irrelevant to the universe.
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Are you sure Nyx is that powerful? She wasn't depicted as collaborating to create the universe in Ascension. Her and Morpheus are hardly worth discussing as they are so vague.
So what that Gaia is literally 5-B at the most. She's literally the Earth and all of her feats are Tier 6. It's a serious dent on the whole "Universal everyone" narrative you're arguing for. It just doesn't hold up to any scrutiny or analysis of the characters.
It's not AoE. It's just analysis of the feats themselves. I don't know one feat in God of War above Tier 5 that isn't Primordials or an outlier.
The universe in this case is a flat earth and a dome of "stars" above it. It's not a 3-A construct. It's arguably not even Tier 5. Again you are just centering all your arguments on semantics and literal minded interpretation.
The burden of proof is yours and in the newest pre PS4 game Uranus is shown dying in the opening. You haven't proven nothing that him being alive wasn't retconned to this moment.
The sun isn't a literal star it's literally smaller than the Earth, which is flat. And orbits around it. So what if it has a core, that doesn't mean it's as large as our sun.
And it is certainly relevant considering God of War follows traditional Hellenistic Cosmology which isn't that big.
Also, for the last time, Twitter exchanges don't matter in the slightest.
So what that Gaia is literally 5-B at the most. She's literally the Earth and all of her feats are Tier 6. It's a serious dent on the whole "Universal everyone" narrative you're arguing for. It just doesn't hold up to any scrutiny or analysis of the characters.
It's not AoE. It's just analysis of the feats themselves. I don't know one feat in God of War above Tier 5 that isn't Primordials or an outlier.
The universe in this case is a flat earth and a dome of "stars" above it. It's not a 3-A construct. It's arguably not even Tier 5. Again you are just centering all your arguments on semantics and literal minded interpretation.
The burden of proof is yours and in the newest pre PS4 game Uranus is shown dying in the opening. You haven't proven nothing that him being alive wasn't retconned to this moment.
The sun isn't a literal star it's literally smaller than the Earth, which is flat. And orbits around it. So what if it has a core, that doesn't mean it's as large as our sun.
And it is certainly relevant considering God of War follows traditional Hellenistic Cosmology which isn't that big.
Also, for the last time, Twitter exchanges don't matter in the slightest.
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> I am not strawmaning what you say. It's literally what you argue. You want to scale Helios to Nyx while also using retconned feats to make Nyx universal. When she's not. We know nothing about her.
I want to scale Helios to Nyx because Nyx is stated to be equal to the other primordials, not because of a retconned feat. I literally said it got retconned in the post you first quoted, and that post had nothing to do with Nyx's power, it had to do with me debunking any assumption that the narrator wasn't being literal when he said Nyx's name. He was. Please prove otherwise.
> There isn't "zero evidence" that Uranus got retconned. The evidence is literally in the games themselves. Uranus is shown dying alongside other Primordials in the opening for Ascension. It's right there.
Prove that Uranus died when he is only shown being knocked dow, his form is obscured, and literally every single statement says he survived the war.
> 'It's not literal but it's the only reasonable way I can see Atlas simultaneously being a universal Primordial and a deity of the Titans' level.'
Atlas is a Titan, not a Primordial.
Again with the circular pretention that the Titans are weaker than the Primordials, just because they "must be".
Cronos beat Uranus. Helios beat Nyx. All of that puts them on their level. You've come to this thread already convinced that, no matter what, the Titans couldn't scale. Don't dismiss arguments.
And Uranus was confirmed by a non bait WoG to have been beaten by Cronos at full power, in a fight that merged both the Primordial War and the Titan in scale. Please prove that Cronos did not beat Uranus.
Your arguments require the destruction of a major piece of the series's lore, the beginning of the Cycle of Patricide. Said cycle was literally stated to have come to be when time came to be. That's only reasonable if Cronos killed Uranus.
I want to scale Helios to Nyx because Nyx is stated to be equal to the other primordials, not because of a retconned feat. I literally said it got retconned in the post you first quoted, and that post had nothing to do with Nyx's power, it had to do with me debunking any assumption that the narrator wasn't being literal when he said Nyx's name. He was. Please prove otherwise.
> There isn't "zero evidence" that Uranus got retconned. The evidence is literally in the games themselves. Uranus is shown dying alongside other Primordials in the opening for Ascension. It's right there.
Prove that Uranus died when he is only shown being knocked dow, his form is obscured, and literally every single statement says he survived the war.
> 'It's not literal but it's the only reasonable way I can see Atlas simultaneously being a universal Primordial and a deity of the Titans' level.'
Atlas is a Titan, not a Primordial.
Again with the circular pretention that the Titans are weaker than the Primordials, just because they "must be".
Cronos beat Uranus. Helios beat Nyx. All of that puts them on their level. You've come to this thread already convinced that, no matter what, the Titans couldn't scale. Don't dismiss arguments.
And Uranus was confirmed by a non bait WoG to have been beaten by Cronos at full power, in a fight that merged both the Primordial War and the Titan in scale. Please prove that Cronos did not beat Uranus.
Your arguments require the destruction of a major piece of the series's lore, the beginning of the Cycle of Patricide. Said cycle was literally stated to have come to be when time came to be. That's only reasonable if Cronos killed Uranus.
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Helios shouldn' scale to Nyx because there's no feat where he even conclusivey fights her. Also by his own feats Helios is hella weak, no offense. His strongest feat is destroying a pillar which holds a flat planet. He's High 6-A at best and that's being super generous.
Every single god there died. It's not a leap. It's not a matter of "proving!", specially when you haven't proven your claims. He died in the Primordial War of the opening.
Twitter WoG doesn't count, again. Stop using it. Nobody but you puts any credit in it.
Titans are weaker, yes. All feats indicate so. Primordials created the universe. Strongest Titan can hardly lift a flat planet.
It's a discrepancy that is only explained by weakness.
I understand the Cycle of Patricide, my dude. The point being that Cronos killing Uranus is an outlier regardless of how important to the plot it is. Seriously.
Every single god there died. It's not a leap. It's not a matter of "proving!", specially when you haven't proven your claims. He died in the Primordial War of the opening.
Twitter WoG doesn't count, again. Stop using it. Nobody but you puts any credit in it.
Titans are weaker, yes. All feats indicate so. Primordials created the universe. Strongest Titan can hardly lift a flat planet.
It's a discrepancy that is only explained by weakness.
I understand the Cycle of Patricide, my dude. The point being that Cronos killing Uranus is an outlier regardless of how important to the plot it is. Seriously.
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Evidence for Cronos killing Uranus:
- Stated two different times in the promotional guides.
- Stated that the Cycle of Patricide was a thing since time began.
- Confirmed by 2 different WoGs that the guides are legit and that Cronos did kill Uranus.
- Confirmed by WoG that the fight was of cosmic scale
- It is essential to God of War's lore, taking it away breaks the entire series
- A vague scene where Uranus is shown falling down and not conclusively proven to have died, with nothing supporting that he died there, while the entire lore goes against it.
- Stated to be the case. The syntax of the sentence goes against any chance of it being metaphorical.
- Whenever Nyx's name was mentioned before, it always, always referred to her literally
- Literally none
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Cronos killing Uranus is an outlier. All the WoG on twitter frankly doesn't count, and by the time Ascension rolls up it's not the way it's depicted.
I don't care if the entire lore goes against it. The entire lore goes against the universal stuff you push, which truly break the scale, inner logic and consistency of the series. Including Infinite Speed Sunlight, which you seriously argue for.
Cronos won't scale from Uranus.
Helios is never shown beating Nyx and the only evidence is your insistence on a literal interpretation of a poetic description of the passage of night to dawn.
Seriously.
I don't care if the entire lore goes against it. The entire lore goes against the universal stuff you push, which truly break the scale, inner logic and consistency of the series. Including Infinite Speed Sunlight, which you seriously argue for.
Cronos won't scale from Uranus.
Helios is never shown beating Nyx and the only evidence is your insistence on a literal interpretation of a poetic description of the passage of night to dawn.
Seriously.
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Matthew makes more sense here, in my opinion.
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Dragonmasterxyz, Ultima Reality, Dargoo Faust and now RebubleUselet. How many more will it take to agree with me?
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> Helios shouldn' scale to Nyx because there's no feat where he even conclusivey fights her.
Helios banishes Nyx every single day, syntax of the sentence goes against any chance of it being a metaphor.
> Also by his own feats Helios is hella weak, no offense. His strongest feat is destroying a pillar which holds a flat planet.
The World Pillar holds up the entire universe. The God of War 2 manual literally says so in the Atlas section. Persephone states that, were it destroyed, the world would revert into the primordial void. Persephone states that all that came before would end. Sorry, but you are simply ignoring everything just because you perceive the verse as High 6-A.
> Every single god there died. It's not a leap. It's not a matter of "proving!", specially when you haven't proven your claims. He died in the Primordial War of the opening.
No, he did not. The promotional material says he survived it. Prove it wrong, please.
Helios banishes Nyx every single day, syntax of the sentence goes against any chance of it being a metaphor.
> Also by his own feats Helios is hella weak, no offense. His strongest feat is destroying a pillar which holds a flat planet.
The World Pillar holds up the entire universe. The God of War 2 manual literally says so in the Atlas section. Persephone states that, were it destroyed, the world would revert into the primordial void. Persephone states that all that came before would end. Sorry, but you are simply ignoring everything just because you perceive the verse as High 6-A.
> Every single god there died. It's not a leap. It's not a matter of "proving!", specially when you haven't proven your claims. He died in the Primordial War of the opening.
No, he did not. The promotional material says he survived it. Prove it wrong, please.
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Syntax and semantics shouldn't be the basis of your argument. Nothing proves he fights her there but a literal interpretation that's unrealistic.
No it doesn't. It literally just holds the flat planet. The statements that it holds creation are poetic language and that's all that is.
I'm not ignoring. I'm going by what's actually in the games, not guidebooks. Why should I care if a guidebook says it holds the universe when by playing the actual games you can see it just holds the planet. Serious question?
Why should supplementary material overwrite the games? It shouldn't.
You have yet to prove Uranus didn't die in Ascension besides using old guides and sites and Twitter Quotes
No it doesn't. It literally just holds the flat planet. The statements that it holds creation are poetic language and that's all that is.
I'm not ignoring. I'm going by what's actually in the games, not guidebooks. Why should I care if a guidebook says it holds the universe when by playing the actual games you can see it just holds the planet. Serious question?
Why should supplementary material overwrite the games? It shouldn't.
You have yet to prove Uranus didn't die in Ascension besides using old guides and sites and Twitter Quotes
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Every sngle time this was brought up before, I went massively against it and GoW capped at tier 5 to me, but I honestly have to say that Wind see making more sense on the Uranus and Nyx thing, is (World Pillar I'm still neutral on), and he and I had a really heated debate about this on Discord before I told him to go ahead and try and post it, but to not expect acceptance.
Uranus being killed by Cronos is a huge lore point, and Nyx being bannished by Helios is stated by the narrator and the sentence is structured in a way that suggests directly it's referring to Nyx herself.
Uranus being killed by Cronos is a huge lore point, and Nyx being bannished by Helios is stated by the narrator and the sentence is structured in a way that suggests directly it's referring to Nyx herself.
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@Kep
I agree that Uranus being killed is a huge lore point, but frankly even if true is an outlier.
If Nyx is physically banished by Helios, than it's not directly, but more of a case of sunllight ofuscating her influence than a fistfight between the two. And Nyx is practically featless anyway.
I see no evidence she is other than literal interpretation of a vague statement.
I agree that Uranus being killed is a huge lore point, but frankly even if true is an outlier.
If Nyx is physically banished by Helios, than it's not directly, but more of a case of sunllight ofuscating her influence than a fistfight between the two. And Nyx is practically featless anyway.
I see no evidence she is other than literal interpretation of a vague statement.
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Worth reposting.Matthew Schroeder said:
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> I agree that Uranus being killed is a huge lore point, but frankly even if true is an outlier.
Except that there are several universal+ feats on God of War.
Helios's light illuminated an infinite plane, the World Pillar literally holds up the universe and Atlas then did it instead, Uranus created the universe, Cronos's birth led to the birth of time etc. I listed all of them in the OP.
> If Nyx is physically banished by Helios, than it's not directly, but more of a case of sunllight ofuscating her influence than a fistfight between the two. And Nyx is practically featless anyway.
Banishing Nyx is just as good of a feat as banishing Uranus himself. I've proved this in the OP, you continue to ignore it and just dismiss my arguments and making up stuff that is not suggested by...anything.
And Helios's power is not hax.
Except that there are several universal+ feats on God of War.
Helios's light illuminated an infinite plane, the World Pillar literally holds up the universe and Atlas then did it instead, Uranus created the universe, Cronos's birth led to the birth of time etc. I listed all of them in the OP.
> If Nyx is physically banished by Helios, than it's not directly, but more of a case of sunllight ofuscating her influence than a fistfight between the two. And Nyx is practically featless anyway.
Banishing Nyx is just as good of a feat as banishing Uranus himself. I've proved this in the OP, you continue to ignore it and just dismiss my arguments and making up stuff that is not suggested by...anything.
And Helios's power is not hax.
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@WindGod
Outliers don't have to be for the series as a whole, of course. Outliers can be for specific characters who are clearly not depicted at being remotely near that level of power. Heck, a lot of the examples of outliers on the page itself are from Marvel Comics, where there are plenty of characters in every single tier, however some characters can still perform outliers.
Outliers don't have to be for the series as a whole, of course. Outliers can be for specific characters who are clearly not depicted at being remotely near that level of power. Heck, a lot of the examples of outliers on the page itself are from Marvel Comics, where there are plenty of characters in every single tier, however some characters can still perform outliers.
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"Except that there are several universal+ feats on God of War."
Literally none.
"Helios's light illuminated an infinite plane"
Never happened and the underworld isn't infinite.
"the World Pillar literally holds up the universe"
Nope, just a flat planet.
"Atlas then did it instead"
Nope, just a flat planet┬▓
"Uranus created the universe"
Nope, it was all of the Primordials and over time killing each other.
"Cronos's birth led to the birth of time"
No it didn't, lol. Time already existed long before his birth.
It's not a good feat because we don't even know anything about her that's not severely retconned. And it's clearly just a case of the light of the sun bringing the dawn, not Helios overpowering her physically. It's so easy to realize.
Literally none.
"Helios's light illuminated an infinite plane"
Never happened and the underworld isn't infinite.
"the World Pillar literally holds up the universe"
Nope, just a flat planet.
"Atlas then did it instead"
Nope, just a flat planet┬▓
"Uranus created the universe"
Nope, it was all of the Primordials and over time killing each other.
"Cronos's birth led to the birth of time"
No it didn't, lol. Time already existed long before his birth.
It's not a good feat because we don't even know anything about her that's not severely retconned. And it's clearly just a case of the light of the sun bringing the dawn, not Helios overpowering her physically. It's so easy to realize.
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And another one down, and another one down...
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