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God of war | Kratos's immortality Negation section.

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Tony_di_bugalu said:
Kratos kills someone immortal by attacking them continuously, you guys say that's not immortality negation despite the fact that he kills someone immortal.

Whether it is in the first, second, third, one hundred hit it's irrelevant.
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It's greatly relevant if the argument is that he's deactivating resurrection but for some reason it only gets deactivated on the final hit, and visibly not the second to last hit.
 
Deagonx said:
It's greatly relevant if the argument is that he's deactivating resurrection but for some reason it only gets deactivated on the final hit, and visibly not the second to last hit.
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What do you think about God of war III Kratos? He visibly kills them with his first attack.
 
honestly, I'm fine with the immortality stuff for the pro side

There is a reason the skeletons have a special interaction to finish them off completely or QTE.
Seeing how the evidence for the support side is much more overwhelmingly convincing. I'd vote for negation

furthermore game context-wise you need either a QTE, Enhanced powered attack from weapons (Weapon imbued with more magic charged up), or Magic to stop them from regenerating.

so the fact that Magic is necessary to kill them completely also implies that Kratos is indeed doing something using magic to permanently destroy them
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
Let me try to boil this down as simply as possible.
  1. Kratos beats up an enemy.
  2. The enemy is shattered into pieces.
  3. The enemy regenerates after a few seconds.
  4. Kratos beats them up a second time.
  5. The enemy shatters into pieces again.
  6. The enemy does not regenerate.
That is the sequence of events we're dealing with here. The opposition seems to believe that only parts 4, 5, and 6 are important. However, we are asking them to explain why parts 1, 2, and 3 can happen when they contradict the idea of Kratos having immortality negation. So, can anyone please explain why parts 1, 2, and 3 are able to take place (I have highlighted the relevant parts of the list in red, if it helps)? Is there an in-universe explanation, or is it simply an inconsistency?
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Are my gifs just being ignored?

Kratos beats up an enemy.
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Yes
> The enemy is shattered into pieces.
Yes, no different than the feats of them breaking and down regenerating themselves, except when kratos does it they instantly die.
> The enemy regenerates after a few seconds.
No. This is where the misinformation begins. Anyone who has played through GoW 2 even once will tell you cursed remains are not an obstacle in the slightest, they are one of the easiest mobs in the game to face (the guidebook even calls them fodder). For probably the 5th time this thread I will say this Kratos has 0 difficulty killing cursed remains in any fashion in GoW 2.



The only way they even have a chance of regenerating themselves is if kratos is uninvolved, aka stares at them and does nothing. If kratos' hand plays a factor in their dismantling they instantly die. I purposefully showcased their regen they do themselves to visually and blatantly showcase how it is no different than how kratos breaks them apart (just scattered bones), except when he does it they die. This eliminates essentially every argument I've seen in this thread, from damage threshold to the misinformation that kratos simply can't kill them. Kratos isn't doing more damage to them than their own feats of regen have showcased, and he has no difficulty instantly killing them.

Parts 4,5,and 6 are also more misinformation. Kratos doesn't need to beat them up a 2nd, 3rd, 4th, millionth time before they're completely dead. He only does it once.
 
Borutonarutodebunked said:
Kratos needs to crush skeleton warriors bones to dust to stop them from re-forming.
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lollllll
Aetheric Pariah said:
Are my gifs just being ignored?


Yes
> The enemy is shattered into pieces.
Yes, no different than the feats of them breaking and down regenerating themselves, except when kratos does it they instantly die.
> The enemy regenerates after a few seconds.
No. This is where the misinformation begins.
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"This is where the misinformation begins" Yeah, you can say that again. I'm not gonna sugarcoat this for you, if you cannot see the enemies explicitly regenerating after Kratos tears them to pieces, then I think you might legitimately have some sort of issues with your eyesight. I'm not saying that to insult you, I'm genuinely concerned for your health.

What exactly do you think is happening in this video if the enemies aren't regenerating?
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
lollllll

"This is where the misinformation begins" Yeah, you can say that again. I'm not gonna sugarcoat this for you, if you cannot see the enemies explicitly regenerating after Kratos tears them to pieces, then I think you might legitimately have some sort of issues with your eyesight. I'm not saying that to insult you, I'm genuinely concerned for your health.

What exactly do you think is happening in this video if the enemies aren't regenerating?
Click to expand...

It could just be them disassembling and reassembling themselves to avoid enemy attacks as seen in ghost of sparta.

Regardless, the main point In the OP is Kratos nullifying their immortality in God Of war III, something left unanswered by the opposition.
Pepsimanslover_69 said:
We are shown In God of war Ghost Of Sparta, Kratos needs to freeze or overpower their regeneration, he can't really do anything to them at this point in the series.

In God Of War II, Kratos can somewhat nullify their immortality, as he can dismantle them to end their life. Credits to omegabronic for pointing this out.

In God Of War III, he can kill them by tearing them into two or by decapitation, stuff they should survive considering their ability to continue to survive as disconnected skeleton parts and just their broken regeneration.

All of the above showcases Kratos's ability to evolve against the Cursed Remains, albeit it's very minor considering the dozen encounters with them.
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From the immortality page: Regarding types 2, 3, 4, and 8, it should be noted that the degree of the abilities should be specified with the same system used for Regeneration. For example, it should preferably be specified if a character has displayed the ability to withstand injuries up to a Mid level for the purposes of type 2, or has been shown to recover up to such a degree regarding the other types.

Also can you prove that they died if you grind someone to dust for example even if they are alive thanks to 2, 5, or 7 for example they aren't exactly going to be doing much and they may as well be dead even if they aren't.
 
Pepsimanslover_69 said:

Legionnaires & Their Counterparts​

Now, before we start, I know that Fuji wanted to handle this in one of her future threads, but this is mostly a re-justification of the ability that deals with its current problems instead of entirely removing it.

To start off, we need to talk about the Legionnaire's Immortality and it's extent.

Legionnaires are undead creatures (Type 7) who can survive incredibly fatal amounts of damage, such as arrows penetrating through their skull and even being torn into two (Type 2). These traits naturally apply to all Legionnaires.

Now, has Kratos ever shown to negate this immortality? Yeah actually, Let's first start with the most canonical thing in a game, a cutscene.

In this cutscene, Kratos kills two Legionnaires by simply slashing their chest without making any major deep cut, This is the most obvious showcase, but we do see him being able to kill legionnaires in game by simply tearing them into two, or by bashing their head, stuff they should have survived if Kratos isn't negging their immortality.

Kratos has also shown to be able to kill Legionnaires who have been cursed by Zeus to constantly resurrect ( Type 4 & 8), and yeah, Kratos just kills them, there's no mechanism he uses, he just kills them.

And now we have the first problem with Kratos's current justification, the mention of Cursed Remains.

Cursed Remains​

Cursed Remains are counterparts to the Legionnaires, albeit very different. They're more skeleton like, and they usually survive as displaced skeleton parts(and are they are alive in those states for those who are skeptical) (Type 2), they can restore and ressurect themselves from pieces of broken bones(Type 3 & 4) and are far more rarer than your common Legionnaires.

Now, has Kratos negged their immortality? Somewhat.

We are shown In God of war Ghost Of Sparta, Kratos needs to freeze or overpower their regeneration, he can't really do anything to them at this point in the series.

In God Of War II, Kratos can somewhat nullify their immortality, as he can dismantle them to end their life. Credits to omegabronic for pointing this out.

In God Of War III, he can kill them by tearing them into two or by decapitation, stuff they should survive considering their ability to continue to survive as disconnected skeleton parts and just their broken regeneration.

All of the above showcases Kratos's ability to evolve against the Cursed Remains, albeit it's very minor considering the dozen encounters with them.

Now the second problem, Kratos's Type 6 comes from his Norse Era, which we accept to possess his Demigod physiology, while this is correct, we also accept his Norse Era to have all his godly powers, which is why giving this to his Demigod self is weird considering that it's even more likely to be from his godly self.

It should've also included scans.

Nightmares are capable of possession which increases their victims strength and grants immortality, Kratos being able to remove their possession by stunning the victim and can even kill the victim despite their granted immortality.

Demigod Kratos's immortality Negation should look like this, Immortality Negation (Type 2; Can easily kill Undead Legionnaires by slashing their chest, bashing their heads and even tearing them into two, despite a Legionnaire's ability to survive fatal wounds such as a arrow piercing their skull and being torn into two. Type 4; Can even kill the eternally ressurecting Legionnaires. Type 7; Legionnaires are undead creatures. Type 8; The infamous ressurecting Legionnaires had their immortality as a byproduct of a curse bestowed by Zeus himself.)

God Kratos, Enhanced Immortality Negation (Type 2; Evolved to kill Cursed Remains by tearing them into two and decapitation, despite their ability to survive as disconnected skeleton parts. Type 3 & 4; High-Mid; Cursed Remains are able to regenerate from being broken into pieces of separated bone, allowing them to re-animate themselves. Type 6; His Norse self, who's his Demigod self with godly powers, is able to nullify a Nightmare's possession via stunning, which grants it's victim immortality and enhanced strength. He can even kill the victim despite their immortality.)

TL;DR​

  • Type 3 and 6 gets moved to Kratos's God key.
  • Type 8 gets added to his Demigod self.
  • Cursed Remains and Undead Legionnaires are counterparts of each other, but are very different.
  • I need a pepsi.

Staff agrees​


Staff neutrals​


Staff disagrees​

Deagnox
Click to expand...
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
While I'm a bit too tired to go over this in full right now, I would like to mention that I disagree with type 6 immortality negation.

For starters, I'm not sure I understand which part of these scans is supposed to support this being a form of immortality, rather than a standard form of possession. That aside, Kratos' method of "negating" their immortality appears to be a limitation of their possession, where they can be forced out of their host if the host dies or is incapacitated.

I am, however, grateful for the additional scans/references and think the rework looks much better than Kratos' current immortality negation section (even if I may not agree with everything written).

Don't do this, by the way. I am not some bastion of powerscaling. Come up with your own arguments instead of just waiting for me to handle everything, because there will inevitably be some things I cannot respond to immediately.
Click to expand...
So, this is all just basically reorganization?
 
Lou_change said:
From the immortality page: Regarding types 2, 3, 4, and 8, it should be noted that the degree of the abilities should be specified with the same system used for Regeneration. For example, it should preferably be specified if a character has displayed the ability to withstand injuries up to a Mid level for the purposes of type 2, or has been shown to recover up to such a degree regarding the other types.

Also can you prove that they died if you grind someone to dust for example even if they are alive thanks to 2, 5, or 7 for example they aren't exactly going to be doing much and they may as well be dead even if they aren't.
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Kratos doesn’t grind them to dust as shown in the games.
Pepsimanslover_69 said:
In God Of War II, Kratos can somewhat nullify their immortality, as he can dismantle them to end their life. Credits to omegabronic for pointing this out.

In God Of War III, he can kill them by tearing them into two or by decapitation, stuff they should survive considering their ability to continue to survive as disconnected skeleton parts and just their broken regeneration.
Click to expand...
In two, Kratos can dismantle them to kill them, despite their ability to survive as disconnected skeleton parts and regenerate from pieces of broken bones. Albeit, this is still is in discussion.

In three, he can tear them into two or decapitate them to end their life. This hasn't been addressed.
 
@Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara can you cut it out with the Ad Hominems here and instead just refute the points Pariah's making? Especially when he has a gif and explanation to your concerns on why your 6 steps happen in the first place?
 
Which Pariah literally has an imgur gif explaining the situation, Fuji just not only ignores the second half of his post but goes out of her way to insult his eyesights when that's unwarranted in this debate. Pariah didn't start insulting people, Fuji did so no he's not equally to blame here.
 
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Theglassman12 said:
Fuji just not only ignores the second half of his post but goes out of his way to insult his eyesights when that's unwarranted in this debate. Pariah didn't start insulting people, Fuji did so no he's not equally to blame here.
Click to expand...
Fuji is technically a she. Not sure it matters, though
 
Pepsimanslover_69 said:
Kratos doesn’t grind them to dust as shown in the games.
Click to expand...
I skimmed and didn't realize such a statement directly applied to this things it was meant to be a random example.
Honestly type 2 negation seems possible. Legionnaires type 4 and 8 is a little odd technically the scan provided doesn't say they resurrect on their own as a direct result of the curse so Zeus could be reanimating them again every time they die or it could just take a while for the curse to revive them.

The scan used to justify type 3 & 4 for cursed remains explicitly says it happens if you don't finish them off and I mean if their regen is based on pulling themselves back together if the bones are separated enough would they be able to recover still.
 
@Deagonx Accusing someone of not addressing the entire post is not on the same level as insulting their ability to read in a debate. Those are two completely different levels of extreme and it's very unprofessional of you to just shrug off someone insulting another person in a middle of a debate Deagon, you're a thread moderator, act like it.
 
This is me acting like it. I didn't shrug off what Fuji said, I pointed out correctly that she did not provoke the toxicity but rather responded to it. I stand by that decision completely. Both your claim that the two are unequal and that I'm acting unprofessional are baseless. If you feel strongly about it I encourage you to pursue it with HR rather than using this CRT as a venue for your personal feelings about me or Fuji.
 
Lou_change said:
Legionnaires type 4 and 8 is a little odd technically the scan provided doesn't say they resurrect on their own as a direct result of the curse so Zeus could be reanimating them again every time they die or it could just take a while for the curse to revive them.
Click to expand...
The scan pretty heavily implies that the curse was responsible for their ressurection, and it's in character for Zeus to force curse based immortality on people, as he did it to Prometheus and Pandora's first seeker.

And we currently accept that a God's curses can be activated and maintained independently of them.

Lou_change said:
The scan used to justify type 3 & 4 for cursed remains explicitly says it happens if you don't finish them off and I mean if their regen is based on pulling themselves back together if the bones are separated enough would they be able to recover still.
Click to expand...
The statement talks about how Kratos is effective at breaking them to pieces, however if he decides to not finish them off(in this context, if he decides to leave them alone) they are able to re-animate themselves, something usually referring to ressurection.
 
Pepsimanslover_69 said:
however if he decides to not finish them off(in this context, if he decides to leave them alone) they are able to re-animate themselves, something usually referring to ressurection.
Click to expand...
If "finishing them off" is the distinction, we are referring to regeneration, not resurrection.
 
I believe the novels, despite their secondary canon status, are still usable in this context. We know that in the games, Kratos must use specific attacks to put down certain enemies for good. From a strictly visual standpoint, the damage these attacks deal is similar to what these enemies can regenerate from naturally. However, the novels clarify that this is not the case, and Kratos is actually just destroying them beyond the limits of their regeneration, as he cannot kill them otherwise. I do not think these two points are contradictory; God of War, as a video game, is inherently limited in what it can visually depict. It's not easy for a game to render a kill move where an opponent is "ground into dust", especially not when the dev team could just reuse the "fall apart into bones" animation that already exists. The novels fill this gap, and clarify what is actually happening beyond what the games are able to show (or what the devs were willing to model and animate). In this case, the novels concretely explain why Kratos needs to kill these enemies in such a specific way in the games.

TL;DR: The novels and the games both come to the same conclusion in regards to how Kratos kills these enemies, the former just doesn't have the visual limitations the latter does.

Also, how the fuck do you people keep getting my pronouns wrong? It's right under my name. I mean, I know what the answer is, but I'd like to pretend for a moment that my existence isn't controversial.
 
Agreed. The novel may describe a process for permanently killing them that goes farther than what the combat animations show, but it's in keeping with what we've been arguing the whole time and what several other sources have demonstrated: Kratos is not using a special "immortality negation" power. He is exceeding a threshold for regeneration.
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
I believe the novels, despite their secondary canon status, are still usable in this context. We know that in the games, Kratos must use specific attacks to put down certain enemies for good. From a strictly visual standpoint, the damage these attacks deal is similar to what these enemies can regenerate from naturally. However, the novels clarify that this is not the case, and Kratos is actually just destroying them beyond the limits of their regeneration, as he cannot kill them otherwise. I do not think these two points are contradictory; God of War, as a video game, is inherently limited in what it can visually depict. It's not easy for a game to render a kill move where an opponent is "ground into dust", especially not when the dev team could just reuse the "fall apart into bones" animation that already exists. The novels fill this gap, and clarify what is actually happening beyond what the games are able to show (or what the devs were willing to model and animate). In this case, the novels concretely explain why Kratos needs to kill these enemies in such a specific way in the games.

TL;DR: The novels and the games both come to the same conclusion in regards to how Kratos kills these enemies, the former just doesn't have the visual limitations the latter does.

Also, how the fuck do you people keep getting my pronouns wrong? It's right under my name. I mean, I know what the answer is, but I'd like to pretend for a moment that my existence isn't controversial.
Click to expand...
I'm sorry, but this doesn't make much sense. Not only does God of war II already have an animated death scene of a character turning to ash, but God of war III still has Kratos killing them without any pulveriztion, despite having the technology and hardware to animate such a death scene.

In all honesty, this feels like more speculation just so contradictory secondary canon can be used.
 
Pepsimanslover_69 said:
I'm sorry, but this doesn't make much sense. Not only does God of war II already have an animated death scene of a character turning to ash, but God of war III still has Kratos killing them without any pulveriztion, despite having the technology and hardware to animate such a death scene.
Click to expand...
That's a pre-rendered cutscene, not something you can bust out on a whim in the middle of gameplay. In any case, I want you to stop and think for a second here; Do you really think any sane dev team is going to go out of their way to animate a unique particle effect for the sole purpose of establishing the lore-accurate reason for why Kratos can kill specific enemies? No, obviously not. The novels don't contradict anything; They just fill in a gap borne of the innate limitations of game development (even setting hardware limitations aside).
Pepsimanslover_69 said:
In all honesty, this feels like more speculation just so contradictory secondary canon can be used.
Click to expand...
Except excluding it is even more contradictory because it still presents us with the problem of "Kratos can kill these enemies but only sometimes and there is no consistent rhyme or reason regarding how much he needs to kill them for them to stay dead".
 
I don't see where this thread can really even go. I don't mind updating the justifications with the evidence that is actually being considered (far too often the downgrade threads have been met with an immediate bait and switch where the actual evidence was not in the justifications and thus couldn't be addressed) but the immortality negation will still be a part of the series of downgrades regardless, even if we have to address it one type at a time to keep it from getting too complicated. There are a lot of issues with it, especially Type 7 Negation. We don't just give Type 7 Negation to any dungeon crawling schmuck who can kill a skeleton enemy.
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
I want you to stop and think for a second here; Do you really think any sane dev team is going to go out of their way to animate a unique particle effect for the sole purpose of establishing the lore-accurate reason for why Kratos can kill specific enemies? No, obviously not
Click to expand...
Yeah, almost every enemy in the franchise has their own animation and mechanics when it comes to their death scenes.

And I'm sorry, the only evidence you have of this being "Lore accurate" is a statement from a secondary canon source that came out 8 years later that's contradicted by two games. And your explanation for this problem only applies to one of the games.


Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
Except excluding it is even more contradictory because it still presents us with the problem of "Kratos can kill these enemies but only sometimes and there is no consistent rhyme or reason regarding how much he needs to kill them for them to stay dead".
Click to expand...
Expect that in God of war III, the game that supersedes God of War II, has Kratos only killing them only once, and in ways definitely beneath their regeneration.

So, at worst, this "problem" had been retconed or was simply never there, because as Aetheric showed, This entirely depends on the attacks Kratos uses in the gameplay.

So it's either been A; retconed or B; just had been the result of game mechanics.
 
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Pepsimanslover_69 said:
I'm sorry, but this doesn't make much sense. Not only does God of war II already have an animated death scene of a character turning to ash, but God of war III still has Kratos killing them without any pulveriztion, despite having the technology and hardware to animate such a death scene.

In all honesty, this feels like more speculation just so contradictory secondary canon can be used.
Click to expand...
So all of the novels content should be unusable towards scaling this verse if it can so easily be discarded.
 
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