Gilgamesh (8D) vs super Karna(8D)

[God243]

Gilgamesh (Fate Series)

Gilgamesh (ギルガメッシュ, Girugamesshu?) is the Archer-class Servant of Tokiomi Tohsaka during the Fourth Holy Grail War. After Tokiomi's death, he reforged a new pact with Kirei Kotomine that lasted until the Fifth Holy Grail War. He is the King of Heroes, the hero of the oldest epic poem in human...

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Lancer of Red (Karna)

Lancer of "Red" ("赤あか"のランサー, "Aka" no Ransā?) is the Lancer-class Servant of the Red Faction in the Great Holy Grail War. While he is originally summoned by Feend vor Sembren of the Red Faction, he later becomes one of the Servants of Shirou Kotomine. He also appears in E Pluribus Unum, the...

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Gilgamesh:7
Karna:1

 

[God243]

Bump

 

[God243]

Bump

 

[Adrianelloxd]

Would Ten Crowns work on Super Karna?

 

[God243]

Would Ten Crowns work on Super Karna?

I think not.

 

[God243]

Bump

 

[CrystalValley]

don't know how their authorities stack up going by their profile interpretations but going from a realistic standpoint CCC Gilgamesh blinks him out of existence. non Extra characters have no business facing Extra top tiers and authority isn't some linear hierarchy dick measuring contest with the same hax. it doesn't work like that.

 

[Hecatia_Gaming]

Didn't they canonically fought and literally Gilgamesh defeated him? How this would make a difference?

Next time Goku vs Vegeta

 

[CrystalValley]

Didn't they canonically fought and literally Gilgamesh defeated him? How this would make a difference?

Next time Goku vs Vegeta

weakened versions of them.

 

[Makenai]

don't know how their authorities stack up going by their profile interpretations but going from a realistic standpoint CCC Gilgamesh blinks him out of existence. non Extra characters have no business facing Extra top tiers and authority isn't some linear hierarchy dick measuring contest with the same hax. it doesn't work like that.

Maybe you forgot that Karna defeat peak God Arjuna who is on par with Goetia.

Even Kiara who absorbs mooncell admit that she's weaker than the likes of Goetia.

 

[CrystalValley]

Maybe you forgot that Karna defeat peak God Arjuna who is on par with Goetia.

Even Kiara who absorbs mooncell admit that she's weaker than the likes of Goetia.

that Kiara is stated explicitly to be of a lower scale than her moon self. and i also heavily question if Extra is being used for Grand Order or Extella's version of Extra is being used since Grand Order uses things like Sefar.

regardless, no GO character has Universe of Record scaling which has different laws and mechanics. no one in Grand Order is anywhere near multiversal without hax and certainly don't have infinite or immeasurable speed considering Servants can fight beasts and keep up even if they are inferior. likewise, authority is not a linear hierarchy of hax. Karna has no answer to Ten Crowns or really anything Gilgamesh has.

also I am pretty sure Arjuna is superior to Goetia at least physically.

and if we're going off the profiles, Gilgamesh hits Karna with the Outerversal Seventh Holy Scripture and calls it a day. so he loses either way.

 

[DaReaperMan]

that Kiara is stated explicitly to be of a lower scale than her moon self. and i also heavily question if Extra is being used for Grand Order or Extella's version of Extra is being used since Grand Order uses things like Sefar.

regardless, no GO character has Universe of Record scaling which has different laws and mechanics. no one in Grand Order is anywhere near multiversal without hax and certainly don't have infinite or immeasurable speed considering Servants can fight beasts and keep up even if they are inferior. likewise, authority is not a linear hierarchy of hax. Karna has no answer to Ten Crowns or really anything Gilgamesh has.

and if we're going off the profiles, Gilgamesh hits Karna with the Outerversal Seventh Holy Scripture and calls it a day. so he loses either way.

Kiara absorbed her CCC self and needed to be ridiculously weakened to even be fought, and STILL said she was weaker then Goetia.

Make. A. CRT. Until you get that accepted dont use it in a match. Ever. At all. It's a complete and utter non-argument.

Once again, make a CRT to downgrade their speed, and see above if you want to say they aren't 1-C or anything like that.

Dude, Authority is literally based on AP, and let me tell you, Arjuna apsolutely has higher AP then Gilgamesh, so Arjuna resists everything Gil can use that ain't 1-A. You wanna change that? Well see above again!

You mean that thing he's never used ever on anything or anyone and wouldn't use here for that exact reason?

 

[DaReaperMan]

So to sum this fight up: Karna resists practically everything Gil can do and just beats him to death, Gil's wincon? Something he's never used. Arguments against this are laced with shit that hasn't been accepted here, and as such can't be used.

 

[Makenai]

that Kiara is stated explicitly to be of a lower scale than her moon self. and i also heavily question if Extra is being used for Grand Order or Extella's version of Extra is being used since Grand Order uses things like Sefar.

regardless, no GO character has Universe of Record scaling which has different laws and mechanics. no one in Grand Order is anywhere near multiversal without hax and certainly don't have infinite or immeasurable speed considering Servants can fight beasts and keep up even if they are inferior. likewise, authority is not a linear hierarchy of hax. Karna has no answer to Ten Crowns or really anything Gilgamesh has.

also I am pretty sure Arjuna is superior to Goetia at least physically.

and if we're going off the profiles, Gilgamesh hits Karna with the Outerversal Seventh Holy Scripture and calls it a day. so he loses either way.

See, didn’t I tell you? Everything’s been in the palm of my hand from the start.

Err, Demon God King Goetia…-san, was it? Yes, Goetia was certainly a Beast possessing great power.

But that was only in terms of “strength”. He was a Beast who could only destroy.

My power is weak and still immature as a Beast, but human consciousness is quite fickle and fragile—

No matter what kind of intelligent lifeform they are, beings with wisdom always possess “desire”, and my fingers can grasp their souls.

—Any being that possesses desire cannot match me. Now then—

That's simply because Kiara isnt matured yet as a Beast, besides CCC Kiara is only "approaching" True Daemon level which is i believe should be inferior to Goetia.

Well, i believe GO 1-C rating come from composite scans of the entire series so i dunno what to do if you gonna split laws and mechanics between GO and CCC.

Also pretty sure in CCC Gil himself said that Ten Crowns can be negated with ability of the same level to which in this case is Vishnu and Shiva authority.

 

[CrystalValley]

That's simply because Kiara isnt matured yet as a Beast,

never stated.

besides CCC Kiara is only "approaching" True Daemon level which is i believe should be inferior to Goetia.

what makes Goetia equal to True Daemons? lol

Well, i believe GO 1-C rating come from composite scans of the entire series so i dunno what to do if you gonna split laws and mechanics between GO and CCC.

which is an objectively incorrect way of evaluating the franchise, but it's whatever.

Also pretty sure in CCC Gil himself said that Ten Crowns can be negated with ability of the same level to which in this case is Vishnu and Shiva authority.

no. Rani and Rin analyzed Ten Crowns and gave the ability to Gilgamesh and the other Servants to negate BB's since they will cancel each other out.

@DaReaperMan Kiara absorbed her CCC self and needed to be ridiculously weakened to even be fought, and STILL said she was weaker then Goetia.

but it says this.

Although the scale of the existence of the Pleasure Deva that was born once on the moon is superior to Beast III, they say that she had no choice but to withdraw when faced with a messiah since she did not possess this skill.

~Character Material V, Nega Saver section

Goetia also couldn't blitz Servants and since you guys count adaptions, got damaged by Servants and his attacks defended against.

Make. A. CRT. Until you get that accepted dont use it in a match. Ever. At all. It's a complete and utter non-argument.

actually the argument is completely valid. not for an actual vote to add to the profiles, but in terms of a logical analysis, yes.

Once again, make a CRT to downgrade their speed, and see above if you want to say they aren't 1-C or anything like that.

i made a comment on how i think it would go based off their profiles and how it would actually go realistically. is that not allowed? because you're acting as if any comment that doesn't strictly follow profiles is forbidden.

Dude, Authority is literally based on AP

authority as a whole isn't some single unified thing.

You mean that thing he's never used ever on anything or anyone and wouldn't use here for that exact reason?

i see you all the time running around on threads talking about how "this Gil doesn't **** around" or whatever and how he will use any means necessary to win, but now that he's fighting Karna you're just throwing that out the window now? lol talk about double standards.

 

[DaReaperMan]

No, literally none of what you said in the post I quoted is on the files nor is accepted, authority is accepted as being layers based on AP, make a CRT. Don't bullshit me.

Also, Goetia was literally nearly killed by Solomon using Ars Nova before anyone at all fought him. He was literally damaged and pushed back by Ritsuka Fujimaru he was that weakened.

 

[CrystalValley]

No, literally none of what you said in the post I quoted is on the files nor is accepted, authority is accepted as being layers based on AP, make a CRT. Don't bullshit me.

the 1-A thing was discussed in the other thread you were in and another guy even linked how it was accepted, ignoring the fact it was accepted by default the moment that weapon got upgraded to 1-A because this site acknowledges how GoB has all things from humanity not made with foreign tech.

also can you stop being so whiny? you're getting furious and being seriously aggressive over fictional characters. i've noticed this a lot with you in various threads. it's cringe dude. do you see me getting mad? no. you need to calm down, seriously.

Also, Goetia was literally nearly killed by Solomon using Ars Nova before anyone at all fought him. He was literally damaged and pushed back by Ritsuka Fujimaru he was that weakened.

i'm not talking about when Ritsuka fought him. and in the adaption i recall that happening after Goetia's initial fight with the Servants, but I'll go check again to be sure. and are you seriously implying he drops from 1-C to 6-C over that anyways?

 

[DaReaperMan]

the 1-A thing was discussed in the other thread you were in and another guy even linked how it was accepted, ignoring the fact it was accepted by default the moment that weapon got upgraded to 1-A because this site acknowledges how GoB has all things from humanity not made with foreign tech.

also can you stop being so whiny? you're literally getting furious and being seriously aggressive over fictional characters. it's cringe dude. do you see me getting mad?

i'm not talking about when Ritsuka fought him.

Oh look, the one thing that is a non-argument for reasons Gil has never used it, doesn't change your actively arguing shit that's not accepted and not on the files.(Which BTW is one of my triggers here, and why your driving me up the wall so fast I need a frame and a steering wheel.)

Oh, you mean what contradicts the primary source and as such isn't accepted?

 

[Adrianelloxd]

Does Gil really have the seventh holy scripture tho? I know about the Church being in both tsukihime and fate worlds but going by what we know, GoB shouldn't have weapons created by a new humanity with its new concepts. Wouldn't this be tsukihime's humanity?

"That which is missing from the vault would be items produced with completely new concepts by a new human race..."

the 1-A thing was discussed in the other thread you were in and another guy even linked how it was accepted, ignoring the fact it was accepted by default the moment that weapon got upgraded to 1-A because this site acknowledges how GoB has all things from humanity not made with foreign tech.

Could you link the thread please?

 

[CrystalValley]

Oh look, the one thing that is a non-argument for reasons Gil has never used it, doesn't change your actively arguing shit that's not accepted and not on the files.(Which BTW is one of my triggers here, and why your driving me up the wall so fast I need a frame and a steering wheel.)

Oh, you mean what contradicts the primary source and as such isn't accepted?

the fact discussing fictional characters drives you up a wall is already concerning. like that seriously isn't ok. i'm not trying to be condescending. you should take a break from this stuff for a while maybe.

edit: somehow this line got deleted. you guys use adaptions and Goetia in the game not instantly just killing the Servants was already off.

@Adrianelloxd Could you link the thread please?

sure thing. TrueKingofHeroes sent it in the Dante Vs Gil thread when discussing his 1-A stuff, which is how I found it. https://vsbattles.com/threads/nasuverse-crt-additions-to-gilgamesh-and-various-servants.132730/

his profile also says that GoB contains all things made by humanity, so it was honestly already accepted even before this.

Does Gil really have the seventh holy scripture tho? I know about the Church being in both tsukihime and fate worlds but going by what we know, GoB shouldn't have weapons created by a new humanity with its new concepts. Wouldn't this be tsukihime's humanity?

a new humanity? you've lost me on this. don't quite know what you're referring to here. could you elaborate?

anyways, the Seventh Holy Scripture and other Holy Scriptures should exist in Fate worlds, especially the Seventh since it was made specifically for vampires seemingly, which still exist in Fate Worlds. also i'm just using that for arguments abiding by profiles. he doesn't need that at all here realistically.

 

[DaReaperMan]

the fact discussing fictional characters drives you up a wall is already concerning. like that seriously isn't ok. i'm not trying to be condescending. you should take a break from this stuff for a while maybe.

I'm in an argument, it's kind of natural for people to sometimes get heated, and some people have triggers about it, myself included.

 

[CrystalValley]

I'm in an argument, it's kind of natural for people to sometimes get heated, and some people have triggers about it, myself included.

i think there's a difference between a debate and an argument.

anyways, some of my post got deleted when i actually posted it so I'll repost it here. (weird glitch)

you guys use adaptions though, so it's kind of weird to shrug it off. especially since in the game Goetia not instantly kill blitzing Servants was already pretty strange.

and more importantly, you didn't answer my question on if it's against the rules to mention viewpoints that aren't related to the profiles, because you seemed to be implying that.

and yes, the 1-A stuff has been accepted. unless there is something new i don't know about. if it wasn't accepted and I was just throwing out my viewpoints not based off the profiles, i wouldn't be using arguments like 1-A or any of the stuff in this tiering system really. but that was accepted and which is why I mentioned it as a 1-A hax he could use to win.

 

[Makenai]

Bruh

never stated.

Bruh, do you read my reply? Kiara never reach maturity in FGO i literally bought the scan.

what makes Goetia equal to True Daemons? lol

And on what basis you think that True Daemons above Goetia?

no. Rani and Rin analyzed Ten Crowns and gave the ability to Gilgamesh and the other Servants to negate BB's since they will cancel each other out

BB :: That power — It’s the same rank as mine. — How wretched.

Gilgamesh :: Indeed. A king should never show his true form, even unto his death. However, my mongrel wagered her life to bring these rites to the attention of the crown. If I do not answer her call, who will. If the malice covering this place belongs to all the world, that’s most convenient. Listen carefully, all beings. This woman is my contractor. Consider harming Hakuno Kishinami without my permission impossible from now unto eternity!

And on what the basis that makes Ten Crowns superior to Shiva and Vishnu?

 

[DaReaperMan]

you guys use adaptions though, so it's kind of weird to shrug it off. especially since in the game Goetia not instantly kill blitzing Servants was already pretty strange.

and more importantly, you didn't answer my question on if it's against the rules to mention viewpoints that aren't related to the profiles, because you seemed to be implying that.

and yes, the 1-A stuff has been accepted. unless there is something new i don't know about.

We use adaptations if they don't directly contradict what's shown in the main source, thing is a lot of the Solomon Temple movie contradicts what's shown in the game of FGO

In versus threads you cannot use what's not on the files/what isn't accepted for arguments.

It's also never be used by Gil at any point ever.

 

[CrystalValley]

Bruh

Bruh, do you read my reply? Kiara never reach maturity in FGO i literally bought the scan.

and? so you're talking about a hypothetical Kiara we've never seen in GO as evidence for CCC scaling?

And on what basis you think that True Daemons above Goetia?

because CCC Kiara was on the same level of existence, a universe of record entity that is vastly above the cast of CCC.

And on what the basis that makes Ten Crowns superior to Shiva and Vishnu?

because what it can do is one of the most incredible hax that can possibly exist that is very obnoxious to counter. and since authority isn't some unified thing where it's all the same but is just a potency game, nothing Karna does can counter it.

@DaReaperMan We use adaptations if they don't directly contradict what's shown in the main source, thing is a lot of the Solomon Temple movie contradicts what's shown in the game of FGO

alright. well even in the game it doesn't really work but i'll stop there.

In versus threads you cannot use what's not on the files/what isn't accepted for arguments.

you can't even mention it as a side point while also making points for the profile versions? pretty silly but alright. thanks for letting me know.

It's also never be used by Gil at any point ever.

that doesn't really matter. CCC Gilgamesh's fights take place in gameplay so we don't know how he actually fights or what he uses.

you also were debating someone on the Dante thread who was talking about how Gilgamesh will not bring out that weapon because of his arrogance and stuff and you said this.

so i don't really see what the issue is here now.

i mean even if we look at it logically, if Gilgamesh has SNI and knows he cannot do anything to Karna except with that weapon, why would he not use it?

 

[DaReaperMan]

In the game Ritsuka fought Goetia on their own so

I mean, you were using them as some of your main arguments from what I've seen.

I argued it then because Dante had no way of taking down Gil at all before he did, here, Karna actually can take him down before he thinks to use it.

 

[CrystalValley]

In the game Ritsuka fought Goetia on their own so

the Servants had some spouts with him beforehand if memory serves. but it's been a while.

I mean, you were using them as some of your main arguments from what I've seen.

admittedly i should've brought up the profile argument first and tacked on the other part afterwards instead of in reverse.

I argued it then because Dante had no way of taking down Gil at all before he did, here, Karna actually can take him down before he thinks to use it.

does Karna have the speed to blitz Gilgamesh here? because Gilgamesh should just SNI into the Seventh since he knows he cannot do anything to Karna. Karna would have to blitz nuke him and then hope his AP is enough to one shot him with a quick attack to pull out a win. so how does the speed stack up? as far as I'm aware only Types and Roa have a far higher speed rating than Gilgamesh currently, at least when looking at their surface level profiles.

edit: i see that he's rated as faster than Kiara but by how much? it doesn't have the "far higher" stuff that Types have, so it's hard for me to tell based off him just vaguely being stated to be faster than Kiara in the profile, who isn't faster than Gilgamesh.

 

[Adrianelloxd]

a new humanity? you've lost me on this. don't quite know what you're referring to here. could you elaborate?

anyways, the Seventh Holy Scripture and other Holy Scriptures should exist in Fate worlds, especially the Seventh since it was made specifically for vampires seemingly, which still exist in Fate Worlds. also i'm just using that for arguments abiding by profiles. he doesn't need that at all here realistically.

Yes, I was referring to Gil's Collector EX personal skill. I can't seem to find a way to link an image on mobile so just look it up, sorry lol, but the specific part i was referring to is the new breed of humanity, I found it in one of the references under the GoB article (19.4) on the TM wiki but when i looked up the actual article it seems it's changed to post-humans.


Ah that does makes sense.

I also can't seem to link anything on mobile, is there a reason to this or is something broken on my end?

 

[Makenai]

and? so you're talking about a hypothetical Kiara we've never seen in GO as evidence for CCC scaling?

LMAO do you even read CCC event?

With Zepar's power she was able to see through multiverse That is how she came to know about another version of herself from a distant time and space, one among the countless number to exist. She trying to connect herself with her CCC self by bringing over the Imaginary Number Phenomenon of the Fate/EXTRA CCC world to the Fate/Grand Order world, thats how she manifested into beast and she only after she become one with Mara that she can become a proper and matured beast, that means even before mature she was about to merged with her CCC self and she herlself admit that she is still inferior to Goetia in terms of raw damage.

because what it can do is one of the most incredible hax that can possibly exist. and since authority isn't some unified thing where it's all the same but is just a potency game, nothing Karna does can counter it.

So destroying all of creations is still inferior to that? Seriously?

 

[DaReaperMan]

the Servants had some spouts with him beforehand if memory serves. but it's been a while.

admittedly i should've brought up the profile argument first and tacked on the other part afterwards instead of in reverse.

does Karna have the speed to blitz Gilgamesh here? because Gilgamesh should just SNI into the Seventh since he knows he cannot do anything to Karna. Karna would have to blitz nuke him and then hope his AP is enough to one shot him with a quick attack to pull out a win. so how does the speed stack up? as far as I'm aware only Types and Roa have a far higher speed rating than Gilgamesh currently, at least when looking at their surface level profiles.

Ritsuka fought Goetia on their own, servants are just there for gameplay

Correct, should still probably make a CRT still.

He wouldn't do it immediately, and not before he gets fu-fu-fu-fuuuuuucked by Karna's everything advantage, since something like Enuma Elish can still deal a good amount of damage here, Gilgamesh isn't so far behind in AP that he couldn't harm Karna normally, even with 90% damage reduction from Karna it'd be hard.

 

[CrystalValley]

LMAO do you even read CCC event?

yes but a long time ago and there's a lot of nonsense to keep up with in Grand Order, so its not the easiest to remember all of it.

That is how she came to know about another version of herself from a distant time and space, one among the countless number to exist. She trying to connect herself with her CCC self by bringing over the Imaginary Number Phenomenon of the Fate/EXTRA CCC world to the Fate/Grand Order world, thats how she manifested into beast and she only after she become one with Mara that she can become a proper and matured beast, that means even before mature she was about to merged with her CCC self and she herlself admit that she is still inferior to Goetia in terms of raw damage.

can you direct me to where it says the Kiara being stated to be a of a lower scale than her moon self is not her complete self it is referencing? because Goetia quite frankly would've screwed over everything a lot easier if he was actually stronger than the Kiara of CCC. the Universe of Record is a big deal and not being in it or from it seriously affects power levels.

So destroying all of creations is still inferior to that? Seriously?

i'm talking about Goetia's physical stats.

@Adrianelloxd Yes, I was referring to Gil's Collector EX personal skill. I can't seem to find a way to link an image on mobile so just look it up, sorry lol, but the specific part i was referring to is the new breed of humanity, I found it in one of the references under the GoB article (19.4) on the TM wiki but when i looked up the actual article it seems it's changed to post-humans.

i'll look more into it myself because i don't really know what this is about right now.

I also can't seem to link anything on mobile, is there a reason to this or is something broken on my end?

i don't use mobile so i can't say.

@DaReaperMan Ritsuka fought Goetia on their own, servants are just there for gameplay

don't really know if i'd say it was purely gameplay but i'll look over some of that arc again when i get the time.

Correct, should still probably make a CRT still.

too lazy. i didn't even plan to stay on here as long as i have, but some interesting things came up every now and then to keep me coming back for fun. if i did make one, instead of arguing for my actual views that are more in depth, i'd likely just give separate ratings for characters in the Universe of Record and ones from Observation to make it a more simple explanation.

He wouldn't do it immediately,

i would have to disagree honestly. SNI would tell him that he's in serious danger and will die if he does not act with the appropriate method immediately. and since we agree he does not **** around he should do so. and i don't see Karna really dealing with a random 1-A spear being shot point blank behind him repeatedly, assuming he even deals with it the first time around.

 

[DaReaperMan]

I mean Ritsuka has no servants with him when the cutscene after happens

Right...

And this spear doesn't get used on him, why? Karna is MORE then skilled enough to do so lol

 

[TrueKingOfHeroes]

lol talk about double standards.

Yes, double standards.

 

[CrystalValley]

I mean Ritsuka has no servants with him when the cutscene after happens

Right...

And this spear doesn't get used on him, why? Karna is MORE then skilled enough to do so lol

like i said i'm pretty sure there were multiple spouts with Goetia, but I'll get back to you once i go through a bit of the last parts again since its been a while.

it's not really about skill on Karna's part. it's about him dealing with a spear being summoned behind him at point blank range that can instantly kill him while getting distracted by a million other things. i don't see how he will see that coming, or at least in time to do anything.

@TrueKingOfHeroes what are you getting at with this comment? not really sure.

 

[TrueKingOfHeroes]

@TrueKingOfHeroes what are you getting at with this comment? not really sure.

Just forget it, anyway, I'm not interested in this match.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Gil never puts weapons on top of people from memory

 

[Adrianelloxd]

Gil never puts weapons on top of people from memory

UBW Herc vs Gil?

 

[CrystalValley]

Gil never puts weapons on top of people from memory

actually in CCC he spawns GoB portals point blank around enemies on different sides, even directly below their feet.

also funny enough, there is one where he literally opens a portal and drops a bunch of weapons on their head at point blank like how you mentioned, but I am too lazy to get a 6 chain on BB right now for that. basically just the same as the last picture i sent, but the portal is above them instead of below. so Karna will have to be dealing with weapons spawning from him at that range and from any angle while dodging the Seventh Holy Scripture. so yeah i do not think he will be able to pull that off.

 

[DaReaperMan]

UBW Herc vs Gil?

Never actually did it there

actually in CCC he spawns GoB portals point blank around enemies on different sides, even directly below their feet.

also funny enough, there is one where he literally opens a portal and drops a bunch of weapons on their head at point blank like how you mentioned, but I am too lazy to get a 6 chain on BB right now for that. basically just the same as the last picture i sent, but the portal is above them instead of below. so Karna will have to be dealing with weapons spawning from him at that range and from any angle while dodging the Seventh Holy Scripture. so yeah i do not think he will be able to pull that off.

Excellent, thanks for the info

 

[Adrianelloxd]

Never actually did it there

Yeah just checked, not quite it, my bad.