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Genos vs Armstrong

ThatDarnFish said:
Should we wet the phish
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not sure that'll change much, since he seems to just upscale from his previous form, which keeps Armstrong... basically with most advantages.

buty i'd ask someone more knowledgable. I'm unsure how far higher Armstrong upscale, I just know he upscales a shit ton higher.
 
Armstrong is able to easily overpower someone like Base Raiden, and even after Raiden went Ripper Mode, Raiden still had difficulties putting Armstrong down.

Anyway, Armstrong easily takes this. The AP gap is so minimal that it really doesn't matter. DSK' standard tactic is literally just punching. Armstrong would easily win in close combat as we know he has much better skill, being able to contend and hold his own against the winds of destruction, all of them who are highly trained in combat as well as Raiden himself. Armstrong's superior LS would also mean he would win in a grappling match between the two (Class G vs Class M)

Armstrong is almost much more haxxed, the dude can create large shockwaves and attack from a distance. The dude can create tremors from the ground that are powerful enough to harm ripper mode Raiden, can create energy shockwaves, acrobatuucs allow him to easily dodge DSK's blows. Use his electro magnetic powers to throw and toss objects at DSK, can create explosions and has better regen than DSK.

The only plausible wincon for DSK is his acid breath, but there problems here. DSK never uses it against an opponent, only used when he was annoyed at some child. Also Armstrongf has ways to negate this. He could create a shockwave to blow it away, just straight up dodge it, and could heal from it to his Mid regen from Nano machines.

Armstrong takes this easily.
 
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Nah, all of them stomp DSK worse because they're got shit like dura neg, minions, shields, self bisection. And skill stomp. And many more.
 
Concerns with the exaggeration as to how much Armstrong actually upscales from his feat aside he very easily wins here.

Too tough and too strong lifting-wise, Deep Sea King gets physically folded and outlasted.
 
Changes made. Genos takes the field. I know it wasn't said Armstrong vs DSK wasn't a straight stomp, but it really felt like it was just a too easy win.
 
Abstractions said:
Concerns with the exaggeration as to how much Armstrong actually upscales from his feat
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He doesn't upscale that massively but he does upscale by a good amount that's he able to physically overpower characters with the High 7-C value with ease
 
Armstrong was stated to be able to one-shot Base Raiden by Doktor, Raiden practically no-sold his "piece of shit" casual punch, Armstrong then held his own against a Raiden who was amped to have Raiden have the advantage in everything except durability. So yeah, there isn't exact exaggeration as to how much he upscales.

Oh and also, Genos likes to attack with fire/plasma. Attacking Armstrong with those is like, why, literally everyone worth their salt in MGR can tank plasma and shit, and Armstrong casually no-sells being in his own ridiculously OP flames that can harm Raiden and Sam.

Also, I think Armstrong's shockwaves and ranged capabilities were oversold here, he's got a several meter charged AoE shockwave around himself, and the rest of his ranged options are throwing shit, which he admittedly does do IC.
 
DaReaperMan said:
Armstrong was stated to be able to one-shot Base Raiden by Doktor, Raiden practically no-sold his "piece of shit" casual punch, Armstrong then held his own against a Raiden who was amped to have Raiden have the advantage in everything except durability. So yeah, there isn't exact exaggeration as to how much he upscales.
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I think the one shot is a bit questionable considering Raiden tanks many hits from Armstrong.
 
DaReaperMan said:
Armstrong was stated to be able to one-shot Base Raiden by Doktor, Raiden practically no-sold his "piece of shit" casual punch, Armstrong then held his own against a Raiden who was amped to have Raiden have the advantage in everything except durability. So yeah, there isn't exact exaggeration as to how much he upscales.
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Okay, but, that's still not true, because we know he isn't one-shotted based on what is presented so it just renders the statement inaccurate.

Again, with the choice of words, as "no-sold" would be an exaggeration as well. Raiden was put out momentarily and I will stress momentarily because it was a short period of time, but just because a winded Raiden does get back up doesn't entail he no-sold an attack, as it implies zero effect which is misleading.

This is the problem I have when I say exaggerations, as the feats exist, there are just blown an extra level out of proportion by escalation through word of mouth, this is how it starts:

"Armstrong punched Raiden hard enough to blow up EXCELSUS, which would require x amount of force and subsequently require him to be able to survive said amount to not damage himself. Raiden survives this and is able to return fighting, implying he's this durable as well."

It states the feat and the logical conclusion, but when extrapolated further it will we get addendums to this:

"Armstrong can hurt Raiden, who survived the punch that blew up EXCELSUS, meaning he should be able to punch higher than what the base feat entails."

While not really incorrect, we've now moved on from the base feat which this output is technically all that is necessary for Raiden to be hurt by Armstrong, as he was still hurt from the punch, he just survives and is able to continue the fight.

But when you introduce statements and amps, things get out hand:

"Armstrong is stated to be able to one-shot Raiden by Doktor, who survives the EXCELSUS punch. Armstrong can also still fight a Ripper Mode Raiden who is stronger, also entailing more durability as a consequence to this amp."

It's contextually wrong because, well, he survives the Armstrong punch that is supposed to one-shot him that also blows up EXCELSUS, which would render the statement incorrect naturally but it's being used to justify higher Raiden scaling from the base feat which then makes Armstrong stronger for being able to hurt him still, who then gets amped and furthers this upscaling. It gets blown up to a ridiculous degree that you could redact the statement and it'd suddenly make it much less impressive, because all you need is the base feat and the amp to consider into the upscaling.

So when I say I'm not a fan of exaggerations it isn't unfounded, the feats speak for themselves and we don't need these extra addendums to it to make it much more than it is because we know what it is.

  • Armstrong does punch, scales to feat with caveat that he's much more durable from nanomachines. Raiden survives and can hurt Armstrong. (Scaling)
  • Raiden has amps and can hurt Armstrong more, creating the need for him to be more durable consequentially so the amps presumably don't break his limbs. Armstrong can still hurt said Raiden. (The upscaling)

When spelled out in this simplistic, fact-based manner it looks much lesser than it's made out to be, but still impressive.

ThatDarnFish said:
Changes made. Genos takes the field. I know it wasn't said Armstrong vs DSK wasn't a straight stomp, but it really felt like it was just a too easy win.
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Are you certain you should be using Post-Superfight key? This Genos is Low 7-B with a 7-B attack. That's creating at minimum a 10x gap physically, even ignoring the attack.
 
Ya know your entire lovely string is completely thrown right out the window when you realize Armstrong was casual for both the Sam, and the entire Raiden fight up until he got the Muramasa. Which Raiden was argued and accepted to be in Ripper Mode for the entire fight thenforth. Ya know, a massive amp.

In case you forgot, Doktor knows Raiden's body like the back of his hand, he'd know whether something would be lethal to him or not, especially since he kinda knows his shit otherwise too.

And as for any arguments against Armstrong being casual, well, he kinda wasn't trying to kill either Raiden or Sam, he wanted them to join him, that would explain why he didn't use enough force to inflict lethal amounts of damage.

Raiden not practically no-selling it: Raiden was getting his ass kicked for way, way more hits than the 121 Kiloton punch, in fact, it has the least visual effect on Raiden, obviously Raiden's going to not be feeling too good when he's just gotten his ass handed to him by someone who could, and was, straight up stomping him in the AP department.
 
But yeah, unfortunately, Abstractions, Emirp, the one-shot is one the file, so I get to officially say to you: make a CRT!

I'll probably call like Twellas or Chariot there or something cause I honestly don't feel like debating something I just know I'm going to get stonewalled on.
 
DaReaperMan said:
Ya know your entire lovely string is completely thrown right out the window when you realize Armstrong was casual for both the Sam, and the entire Raiden fight up until he got the Muramasa. Which Raiden was argued and accepted to be in Ripper Mode for the entire fight thenforth. Ya know, a massive amp.
Click to expand...
DaReaperMan said:
And as for any arguments against Armstrong being casual, well, he kinda wasn't trying to kill either Raiden or Sam, he wanted them to join him, that would explain why he didn't use enough force to inflict lethal amounts of damage.
Click to expand...
Yeah, we've kind of done this conversation before and you ended up backing out of it, so let's not get into that.

DaReaperMan said:
In case you forgot, Doktor knows Raiden's body like the back of his hand, he'd know whether something would be lethal to him or not, especially since he kinda knows his shit otherwise too.
Click to expand...
And he's well within his ability to approximate Armstrong's capabilities and be wrong, like he was, because Raiden wasn't even one-shot in their interaction. Simply put.

DaReaperMan said:
Raiden not practically no-selling it: Raiden was getting his ass kicked for way, way more hits than the 121 Kiloton punch, in fact, it has the least visual effect on Raiden, obviously Raiden's going to not be feeling too good when he's just gotten his ass handed to him by someone who could, and was, straight up stomping him in the AP department.
Click to expand...
You cannot say he no-sold something the follow that up with "he's not going to be feeling so good", those are contradictory, I'm afraid.

DaReaperMan said:
But yeah, unfortunately, Abstractions, Emirp, the one-shot is one the file, so I get to officially say to you: make a CRT!
Click to expand...
A piece of information can exist on the page to serve as acknowledgement of Armstrong's superiority without taking it 100% literally because it can't be based on the game itself as it's contradicted there. It's that simple.

DaReaperMan said:
I'll probably call like Twellas or Chariot there or something cause I honestly don't feel like debating something I just know I'm going to get stonewalled on.
Click to expand...
The only stonewall that's ever occurred has been on the side of the affirmative to the exaggerated scaling, Reaper. I would also prefer arguing with Chariot because he uses significantly less condescension by comparison.

You are free to not debate something, but expect to be called out or argued with when you make statements addressing something I said. It's just the consequence of that sort of thing.

This all is of course derailing the discussion at hand, so I won't be responding to anything not directly involving the match from this point on as to prevent it from inevitably absorbing the thread. Thanks.
 
Abstractions said:
Yeah, we've kind of done this conversation before and you ended up backing out of it, so let's not get into that.


And he's well within his ability to approximate Armstrong's capabilities and be wrong, like he was, because Raiden wasn't even one-shot in their interaction. Simply put.


You cannot say he no-sold something the follow that up with "he's not going to be feeling so good", those are contradictory, I'm afraid.


A piece of information can exist on the page to serve as acknowledgement of Armstrong's superiority without taking it 100% literally because it can't be based on the game itself as it's contradicted there. It's that simple.


The only stonewall that's ever occurred has been on the side of the affirmative to the exaggerated scaling, Reaper. I would also prefer arguing with Chariot because he uses significantly less condescension by comparison.

You are free to not debate something, but expect to be called out or argued with when you make statements addressing something I said. It's just the consequence of that sort of thing.

This all is of course derailing the discussion at hand, so I won't be responding to anything not directly involving the match from this point on as to prevent it from inevitably absorbing the thread. Thanks.
Click to expand...
I backed out because I was fed up with it, also it was about Armstrong's skill not his AP

So basically, your argument boils down to "but it didn't happen" even though you missed the fact that Armstrong was not trying to kill, only recruit, and as such had no reason to apply lethal force, and when he did, Raiden had a substantial amp active. Please don't ignore context.

Armstrong was beating Jack down for a bit before that and making him cough blood and shit with casual blows, in comparison to that kind of Beatdown, yes, Jack practically no-sold it.

Not really though? I didn't see any stonewalling when I reread that thread.

Which you are ignoring the context on.

Is saying "ya know" and things like it condescending now? It wasn't last I checked and the last hundred or so times I used it...

When I'm debated on something, I prefer to have the arguments against what I'm claiming to be, be good and take account for things like the context of the scene and such, which you aren't doing.
 
DaReaperMan said:
Please don't ignore context.
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Context was never ignored, it was just contextualized in a way people wanting to hypebeast didn't like.

DaReaperMan said:
Armstrong was beating Jack down for a bit before that and making him cough blood and shit with casual blows, in comparison to that kind of Beatdown, yes, Jack practically no-sold it.
Click to expand...
Not how it works, can't cough up blood and then suddenly suggest he no-sells.

DaReaperMan said:
Not really though? I didn't see any stonewalling when I reread that thread.
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My comment reflects not just that conversation.

DaReaperMan said:
Is saying "ya know" and things like it condescending now?
Click to expand...

That's a good way of omitting what you actually said:
DaReaperMan said:
Ya know your entire lovely string is completely thrown right out the window when you realize
Click to expand...
DaReaperMan said:
But yeah, unfortunately, Abstractions, Emirp, the one-shot is one the file, so I get to officially say to you: make a CRT!
Click to expand...
You are deliberately being condescending in your phrasing of these statements, it's not subtle.

DaReaperMan said:
When I'm debated on something, I prefer to have the arguments against what I'm claiming to be, be good and take account for things like the context of the scene and such, which you aren't doing.
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I'd like that too, but it looks like we can't get what we want.

Take the comments to my wall, I'll be deleting further derailing posts here.
 
I'm voting for Armstrong

Really, the one deciding factor that make me favour Armstrong here is his Mid level regeneration, just like in the final boss fight against him in the game, no matter how much Genos damages him, Armstrong basically regenerates back to full health, and together with his Type 2 & 3 Self-Sustenance, Armstrong can keep unleashing more and more punishment onto Genos, and Armstrong regens every time, something Genos doesn't have

Speed being equalized actually doesn't help Genos too, sure he can contend equally with Armstrong in combat speed, but whenever Armstrong transition into his regeneration phase, one actually needs to go at a superior speed just to strike Armstrong's weak spot to stop his regen (Raiden has to use his Blade Mode which pushes his speed to Relativistic to do that), and Genos not having superior speed here, Armstrong can always regen

Armstrong wins this low to mid difficulty
 
Abstractions said:
I would also prefer arguing with Chariot
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Hey it's me.

Anyway, argument moot now so this shit can end.

Excel isn't even the highest calc now, ripper mode has a casual 126kt calc and I don't think anyone is going to argue Armstrong doesn't throttles a initial ripper mode Raiden who can do that with a casual swing.
 
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