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Also for some reason we still haven't removed the sub-rel speed for Elminster and Mordenkaine.
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General D&D questions
- Thread starter Foggysniper
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I dunno still. Maybe, as an example, a Fighter has High Hypersonic+ attack speed but only Hypersonic+ movement/reaction speed? Because they cannot replicate the agility of a Monk/Rogue even if they can resonably hit them.
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But I think we should remove the speed for the archmages and replace them with the above suggestion (assuming they don't also have improved evasion)
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Oh right, Drizzt also needs a speed downgrade
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Did it here (hopefully I didn't mess up)
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So both the Elder Tempest calculation and the Dragon calculations were accepted so we can finally get the monsters to the level they need to be (Low 7-C, likely Low 7-B for anything Beholder and above, and High 7-C, likely Low 7-B for anything above CR 23. )
Mr. Bambu
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Yes. That is correct. I can link both calcs if you guys like, but both were (finally) accepted after I asked a favor of Therefir to eval them.
Beholder's matches need removed and we can finally begin expanding the D&D verse, since all relevant calcs are accepted (aside from Hypersonic+).
Beholder's matches need removed and we can finally begin expanding the D&D verse, since all relevant calcs are accepted (aside from Hypersonic+).
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The one psionic Elder Evil is a possible 2A or higher considering it can end Multiverses and kill groups of Gods. Accepted call lightning would also be nice.
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Speaking of lightning and such, I figured I'd mention something from back in 4e that I'd forgotten about, just for the hell of it.
One of the Storm Giant's standard, at-will attacks is to hurl lightning at people. The part that's worth noting is that unlike some other instances, there's no "take half damage even if you succeed", here. The giant chucks lightning at you, and on a successful Reflex save, you completely dodge it. Seeing as 4e Storm Giants seem to perpetually have an aura of storms around them and the MM picture shows the Titan directly grabbing lightning out of the sky, I'd think it's fair to say the giant is actually shooting lightning at the PCs. Granted, the 4e Storm Giant is a little bit stronger than its 5e counterpart (level 24, which would translate to level/CR 16 by Wizards' official translation method, compared to the 5e Storm Giant's CR 13), but not astronomically so.
Another feat that may be worth calculating is that the Fire Archon Ash Disciple (now known as the Fire Elemental Myrmidon) is stated to be able to alter local weather patterns with only its presence, resulting in prolonged heat waves and droughts.
"The presence of one or more ash disciples can have a sympathetic and noticeable effect on local weather patterns, including prolonged heat waves and droughts." - Monster Manual (4e), pg 19
The Fire Archon Ash Disciple is level 20 (changed and rounded to CR 13 based on Wizards' guidelines). The only issue is that we're just told its "local weather patterns" as opposed to getting a specific distance it affects, but considering this effect is supposed to be noticeable and affect the overall weather patterns in the area, I assume it's quite a bit.
One of the Storm Giant's standard, at-will attacks is to hurl lightning at people. The part that's worth noting is that unlike some other instances, there's no "take half damage even if you succeed", here. The giant chucks lightning at you, and on a successful Reflex save, you completely dodge it. Seeing as 4e Storm Giants seem to perpetually have an aura of storms around them and the MM picture shows the Titan directly grabbing lightning out of the sky, I'd think it's fair to say the giant is actually shooting lightning at the PCs. Granted, the 4e Storm Giant is a little bit stronger than its 5e counterpart (level 24, which would translate to level/CR 16 by Wizards' official translation method, compared to the 5e Storm Giant's CR 13), but not astronomically so.
Another feat that may be worth calculating is that the Fire Archon Ash Disciple (now known as the Fire Elemental Myrmidon) is stated to be able to alter local weather patterns with only its presence, resulting in prolonged heat waves and droughts.
"The presence of one or more ash disciples can have a sympathetic and noticeable effect on local weather patterns, including prolonged heat waves and droughts." - Monster Manual (4e), pg 19
The Fire Archon Ash Disciple is level 20 (changed and rounded to CR 13 based on Wizards' guidelines). The only issue is that we're just told its "local weather patterns" as opposed to getting a specific distance it affects, but considering this effect is supposed to be noticeable and affect the overall weather patterns in the area, I assume it's quite a bit.
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Gonna be honest, I have severe doubt that the Ash Archon will change much just because without a set value for radius, we will have to lowball it into the dirt.
As for the Storm Giant, that should probably be considered a very weird outlier because A. it doesn't have showings of lightning aside from coming from a dude that can use lightning and B. it seems to be the only instance where it can be completely dodged?
As for the Storm Giant, that should probably be considered a very weird outlier because A. it doesn't have showings of lightning aside from coming from a dude that can use lightning and B. it seems to be the only instance where it can be completely dodged?
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I don't expect the Fire Archon to change much, but it could be a decent little supporting feat of what something at its level can cause with just its presence. The biggest issue is defining "local weather patterns" in any solid way.
Pretty sure 4e in particular has multiple "you can dodge lightning" attacks, but I'd have to check through the books. IIRC, it was all very high level, though. As for the lightning only coming from the Storm Giant, are you referring specifically to said picture? Because the whole thing does indeed show natural lightning and storm clouds, which fits with them perpetually being surrounded by a minor storm aura and their lore check telling you the equivalent of "sometimes they summon really big storms and ride in on those".
Pretty sure 4e in particular has multiple "you can dodge lightning" attacks, but I'd have to check through the books. IIRC, it was all very high level, though. As for the lightning only coming from the Storm Giant, are you referring specifically to said picture? Because the whole thing does indeed show natural lightning and storm clouds, which fits with them perpetually being surrounded by a minor storm aura and their lore check telling you the equivalent of "sometimes they summon really big storms and ride in on those".
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I would think local could probably be lowballed as 4.7km (standard to the horizon stuff).
The picture shows them holding lightning, yes. That still doesn't mean much in regards to this wiki, though. CtG is the best proof.
The picture shows them holding lightning, yes. That still doesn't mean much in regards to this wiki, though. CtG is the best proof.
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Probably. Though what would changing the weather over that distance to intense heat waves/drought yield?
Obviously, though I'm assuming the giant that is specifically stated to create actual storms firing lightning counts for more than if it was like...a Hill Giant.
Obviously, though I'm assuming the giant that is specifically stated to create actual storms firing lightning counts for more than if it was like...a Hill Giant.
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Well. A drought is less of a temperature deal and more of a "we have no rain" thing. Intense heat waves just means it is really really hot. So, unlike something like a blizzard, we don't have a standard temperature for a drought. For example, California's drought began back in December of 2011- and it had a temperature of a mild 68 degrees by the end of the month. A heat wave seems to vary based on location, but is generally defined as three straight days of temperatures exceeding 32.2 C, but that also depends on what is considered comfortable for the area.
Well yeah. But I don't think that them manipulating storms and stuff would be enough to justify their thrown electricity being lightning equatable.
Well yeah. But I don't think that them manipulating storms and stuff would be enough to justify their thrown electricity being lightning equatable.
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We'll use a heat wave for the area I'm in, I guess.
Base Temp: 16 C
New Temp: 32.2 C
Heat Change: 16.2 C
Distance to the Horizon: 4.7 km (?)
Height: 1 km (up to the lowest clouds)
Volume: 6.9398e10 m^3
Density: 1.225 kg/m^3
Mass: 8.501e10 kg
Specific Heat of Air: 1012 J/kgxK
Energy: 1.394e15 Joules, 333.17 Kilotons of TNT, Large Town level
Base Temp: 16 C
New Temp: 32.2 C
Heat Change: 16.2 C
Distance to the Horizon: 4.7 km (?)
Height: 1 km (up to the lowest clouds)
Volume: 6.9398e10 m^3
Density: 1.225 kg/m^3
Mass: 8.501e10 kg
Specific Heat of Air: 1012 J/kgxK
Energy: 1.394e15 Joules, 333.17 Kilotons of TNT, Large Town level
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Relatively lowballed Large Town level via a CR 13 equivalent monster's presence isn't half bad.
Would also be consistent with the CR 13 Adult White Dragon and the CR 16 Adult Blue Dragon having Small City level effects with their innate magic.
Would also be consistent with the CR 13 Adult White Dragon and the CR 16 Adult Blue Dragon having Small City level effects with their innate magic.
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I suppose.
I still believe CR 13+ would be "At least Low 7-C, likely Low 7-B" based on these calcs, since the High 7-C ash one is relatively assumption based and the dragon one (while I believe it absolutely scales to AP) did have some arguments against it.
I still believe CR 13+ would be "At least Low 7-C, likely Low 7-B" based on these calcs, since the High 7-C ash one is relatively assumption based and the dragon one (while I believe it absolutely scales to AP) did have some arguments against it.
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I'd argue the validity of certain issues with just applying the dragon calcs, though, as I still don't believe "it's possible the dragon's innate magic is superior to it actually attacking something" is a particularly likely interpretation. Especially considering that these regional effects are sustained/powered by the dragon's magic and do not build up indefinitely over time (considering they do cease a few days after the dragon is killed) and are also astronomically less concentrated than a dragon firing their breath weapon at a smaller group of targets, which is directly stated in lore to be powered by the exact same thing.
Still, that's more an argument for the actual upgrade thread, I suppose.
Still, that's more an argument for the actual upgrade thread, I suppose.
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> Granted, the 4e Storm Giant is a little bit stronger than its 5e counterpart (level 24, which would translate to level/CR 16 by Wizards' official translation method, compared to the 5e Storm Giant's CR 13)
Isn't the living sentient planet you can kill in 4e, like CR 20 in 5e then?
Isn't the living sentient planet you can kill in 4e, like CR 20 in 5e then?
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Yep.Qawsedf234 said:
Which is sub-Red Dragon level in 5e (CR 24).
It was exactly Red Dragon level in 4e (level 30).
Though to be fair, Ancient Dragons have been given far more insane scaling statements than to a living planet (for some reason... also part of why Ancient ones are so difficult to quantify).
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Like what?Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot said:
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4e (the same edition with the living planet you can punch in the nonexistent face) states that the most powerful dragons rival the gods in terms of power (actually what?).
The same book (Monster Manual vol. 1) says that the most Ancient Red Dragons are comparable in power to demigods and demon princes.
Though in all honesty, this somehow makes their CR/level more consistent with their lore.
The same book (Monster Manual vol. 1) says that the most Ancient Red Dragons are comparable in power to demigods and demon princes.
Though in all honesty, this somehow makes their CR/level more consistent with their lore.
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in 4e Lolth was CR 35 or something, so nothing super suprising there.
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35 sounds about right.
I think Orcus was 33, and I believe Tiamat was also in the mid-30s.
Ancient Dragons' power level seems to be "How ridiculous do you want this thing to be?", so long as it doesn't surpass its actual god. Finding a consistent level of strength for them is a challenge due to just how heavily it seems to vary between different individual dragons.
I think Orcus was 33, and I believe Tiamat was also in the mid-30s.
Ancient Dragons' power level seems to be "How ridiculous do you want this thing to be?", so long as it doesn't surpass its actual god. Finding a consistent level of strength for them is a challenge due to just how heavily it seems to vary between different individual dragons.
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Also only Reds and Golds get as high as 30 naturally I think. Everything else usually falls short, minus the unique one offs that get higher (like notable Dragon mages).
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Huh, Vecna has 4e stats as well . Didn't know that. 4e is probably the easiest to get Low 2-C to 2-A scaling actually.
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How else will I scale my level one Kobald Wizard to be High 2A?!
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I think that's fair (CR/level of whatever the max player level is or above has always just been treated as "this is the big leagues" as opposed to a very specific power level), but I'm just pointing out that CR isn't what gives the most ancient of dragons these ridiculous levels of power. Lore simply says they have them, and dragons themselves seem to vary to absolutely insane degrees between individuals. An Ancient Dragon could be "like an Adult Dragon but stronger" or it could be "one step shy of being an actual god".Mr. Bambu said:
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