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Gathering information for neck snapping
- Thread starter The_pen_or_the_sword
- Start date
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- Tags
- lifting strength
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I do not know, but I reverted the change. You should preferably ask DontTalkDT to comment here.XING06 said:
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I would also prefer if we had a more consistent strength measuring system, but that is likely not possible to efficiently apply at this point. My apologies.
Composite Human will likely be removed from this wiki though.
Composite Human will likely be removed from this wiki though.
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Yeah I can't imagine how much work that would be to edit. 
Composite Human is still really popular though?
Yeah I'll ask Don'tTalk but I feel like it should be OK. The information is all correct.
Honestly, I'm just not happy with how I wrote that section. It's cluttered and makes the muscle-muscle/tendon unit relationship seem like an afterthought instead of literally the most important part on why lifting strength doesn't scale directly to striking strength.
Composite Human is still really popular though?
Yeah I'll ask Don'tTalk but I feel like it should be OK. The information is all correct.
Honestly, I'm just not happy with how I wrote that section. It's cluttered and makes the muscle-muscle/tendon unit relationship seem like an afterthought instead of literally the most important part on why lifting strength doesn't scale directly to striking strength.
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1) Agreed.
2) That isn't a good argument if it technically breaks our standard conventions.
3) Please be clear regarding what you need help with in the title of your message to him.
4) Are you talking about the part that I edited out or the footnote?
2) That isn't a good argument if it technically breaks our standard conventions.
3) Please be clear regarding what you need help with in the title of your message to him.
4) Are you talking about the part that I edited out or the footnote?
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Why though?Antvasima said:
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I consider the entire "Lifting strength is generally not directly comparable to..."-paragraph is a bit strange as it compares lifting strength, which is weight lifted aka force, to striking strength, which is energy.
They are kinda non-comparable by default and as such it's strange to say one is higher/lower than the other. So we should probably reformulate that a bit.
I get the idea that lifting something would normally be easier than punching it an equal height upwards, though, if that is what we want to say.
Not sure if it makes sense to bring in principles like viscious response, elastic energy, tendon-stiffness or whatever into this. I don't think such principles are usually considered in fiction.
Other topic: I don't think the lifting strength page is an appropiate place to have such a specific note like the neck snapping thing, either.
If we have a value for that, add it to the References for Common feats and add the note there.
If we don't have a value, then nobody could use it anyways. So there would probably be no need for the note at the moment.
They are kinda non-comparable by default and as such it's strange to say one is higher/lower than the other. So we should probably reformulate that a bit.
I get the idea that lifting something would normally be easier than punching it an equal height upwards, though, if that is what we want to say.
Not sure if it makes sense to bring in principles like viscious response, elastic energy, tendon-stiffness or whatever into this. I don't think such principles are usually considered in fiction.
Other topic: I don't think the lifting strength page is an appropiate place to have such a specific note like the neck snapping thing, either.
If we have a value for that, add it to the References for Common feats and add the note there.
If we don't have a value, then nobody could use it anyways. So there would probably be no need for the note at the moment.
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That is correct, yes.DontTalkDT said:
Not sure if it makes sense to bring in principles like viscious response, elastic energy, tendon-stiffness or whatever into this. I don't think such principles are usually considered in fiction.
Okay.
Other topic: I don't think the lifting strength page is an appropiate place to have such a specific note like the neck snapping thing, either.
If we have a value for that, add it to the References for Common feats and add the note there.
If we don't have a value, then nobody could use it anyways. So there would probably be no need for the note at the moment.
Well, the problem is that it has been used quite frequently, so it would be best if we could get a method and value and insert it into the References for Common Feats page, but you are probably correct in that we should remove the Lifting Strength note.
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Yeah not a problem. The whole point was to show that lifting and striking strength aren't comparable anyway cuz people were trying to calculate AP from the potential energy of a lift. So we can just remove that entire section right?
Also, yes both KLO and I have asked different calc group members to add our original consensus here to the References for Common Feats page. There is a value for it, but the issue is that neck snapping is super situational (not to mention the outliers), so I feel that it would be better if we just didn't use it at all.
Also, yes both KLO and I have asked different calc group members to add our original consensus here to the References for Common Feats page. There is a value for it, but the issue is that neck snapping is super situational (not to mention the outliers), so I feel that it would be better if we just didn't use it at all.
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So should I simply move the footnote from the Lifting Strength page to the References for Common Feats one?
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Moving the footnote the the common references page together with a value (and the source for it) seems like the best solution.
For the Lifting Strength page, I would reword the Introduction more or less as follows:
Draft
Lifting Strength is defined as the mass that an individual can lift on Earth. In other words it measures the amount of upwards force a character can produce. As such appropriate pushing and pulling feats are also considered a part of this statistic. Telekinesis or other similar abilities must be specifically referred to as separate from physical strength, when used in a lifting feat. Tearing is also included in this category, but it is an unreliable method of calculating overall lifting ability a vast majority of the time. This is because the force used in a tearing motion is much lower than a lift, as a tearing motion uses much fewer muscle groups and is an awkward application of force compared to other movements. Likewise throwing or punching an object a certain height upwards can be used as lifting feats, as these would require greater strength then just lifting the object.
For the most part just removed the paragraphs regarding Striking Strength vs Lifting Strength, mentioned explicitly that Lifting Strength relates to force and added a note that punching/throwing an object upwards can be used as lifting strength feat.
Any corrections or suggestions for improvement?
For the Lifting Strength page, I would reword the Introduction more or less as follows:
Draft
Lifting Strength is defined as the mass that an individual can lift on Earth. In other words it measures the amount of upwards force a character can produce. As such appropriate pushing and pulling feats are also considered a part of this statistic. Telekinesis or other similar abilities must be specifically referred to as separate from physical strength, when used in a lifting feat. Tearing is also included in this category, but it is an unreliable method of calculating overall lifting ability a vast majority of the time. This is because the force used in a tearing motion is much lower than a lift, as a tearing motion uses much fewer muscle groups and is an awkward application of force compared to other movements. Likewise throwing or punching an object a certain height upwards can be used as lifting feats, as these would require greater strength then just lifting the object.
For the most part just removed the paragraphs regarding Striking Strength vs Lifting Strength, mentioned explicitly that Lifting Strength relates to force and added a note that punching/throwing an object upwards can be used as lifting strength feat.
Any corrections or suggestions for improvement?
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Looks good to me.
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I mean it kinda depends on the method. I looked up long-drop hangings and, according to the 1913 drop table from the UK, a hanging requires 1000 foot-pounds (about 1355.82 joules) to snap the neck. It's a bit different from grabbing the head and snapping the neck, but it does account for snapping the neck through ensnaring it.
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@DontTalkDT
I am not sure if it is a good idea to remove to comparisons with striking strength, as we used to have recurrent problems with members scaling one from the other before I added an explanation to the lifting strength page.
Anyway, we do not have calculations for neck snapping to refer to as far as I am aware, so that complicates including it in the References for Common Feats page, but I would appreciate your help with this.
I am not sure if it is a good idea to remove to comparisons with striking strength, as we used to have recurrent problems with members scaling one from the other before I added an explanation to the lifting strength page.
Anyway, we do not have calculations for neck snapping to refer to as far as I am aware, so that complicates including it in the References for Common Feats page, but I would appreciate your help with this.
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Again we have specific values from both wikipedia and a youtube video. It varies between 1000-1250 lbf.
The issue is that my calc showed that you don't necessarily need that amount of raw strength to perform a neck snap. A theoretical minimum peak human was capable of applying that amount of force with leverage. Body weight is another factor that can play a role.
Other than that yeah Don'tTalk's edits make sense
The issue is that my calc showed that you don't necessarily need that amount of raw strength to perform a neck snap. A theoretical minimum peak human was capable of applying that amount of force with leverage. Body weight is another factor that can play a role.
Other than that yeah Don'tTalk's edits make sense
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Then the only thing that remains is to add the sources from wikipedia and the video into the References for Common Feats page since DMUA, Bambu, Spino and DT have accepted this and Antoniofer was the one who sourced Vsauce3's video so I see no issue adding it into the Common Feats page right away.
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Okay. Should I remove the footnote from the Lifting Strength page, and unlock the References for Common Feats page so you can appropriately edit it?
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You mean they simply assumed Building level Striking Strength = Lifting a Building etc.?Antvasima said:
In that case maybe following version would do?
Draft
Lifting Strength is defined as the mass that an individual can lift on Earth. In other words it measures the amount of upwards force a character can produce. As such appropriate pushing and pulling feats are also considered a part of this statistic. Telekinesis or other similar abilities must be specifically referred to as separate from physical strength, when used in a lifting feat. Tearing is also included in this category, but it is an unreliable method of calculating overall lifting ability a vast majority of the time. This is because the force used in a tearing motion is much lower than a lift, as a tearing motion uses much fewer muscle groups and is an awkward application of force compared to other movements. Likewise throwing or punching an object a certain height upwards can be used as lifting feats, as these would require greater strength then just lifting the object.
Lifting Strength and Striking Strength are in general not comparable. While Striking Strength measures the energy of the characters physical attacks, Lifting Strength measures the amount of mass they can lift, which is determined by the amount of force a character can produce. This means they measure two different physical quantities. Furthermore fiction often treats attack power and Lifting Strength as two unrelated parameters.
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I am not sure if that is a good idea.
At the very least the following text should preferably be preserved:
"That said, it is a common feature within fiction to feature characters capable of vastly greater physical striking strength energy outputs than what would be required to lift weights that they are repeatedly shown to struggle with. As such, the two statistics should be evaluated separately."
At the very least the following text should preferably be preserved:
"That said, it is a common feature within fiction to feature characters capable of vastly greater physical striking strength energy outputs than what would be required to lift weights that they are repeatedly shown to struggle with. As such, the two statistics should be evaluated separately."
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How does that work? Last I checked, that only applies to durability (and that's primarily because you're trying not to get yourself squashed).XING06 said:
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So do we have any calculation or other reliable information that can be used in the References for Common Feats page, if I unlock it?
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As I mentioned earlier, I am not sure if that is a good idea. At the very least, this text needs to remain:
"That said, it is a common feature within fiction to feature characters capable of vastly greater physical striking strength energy outputs than what would be required to lift weights that they are repeatedly shown to struggle with. As such, the two statistics should be evaluated separately."
"That said, it is a common feature within fiction to feature characters capable of vastly greater physical striking strength energy outputs than what would be required to lift weights that they are repeatedly shown to struggle with. As such, the two statistics should be evaluated separately."
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I have thought about the intention behind that passage again. I guess it does make sense to integrate it, though I would like to change its formulation slightly.
Draft
Lifting Strength is defined as the mass that an individual can lift on Earth. In other words it measures the amount of upwards force a character can produce. As such appropriate pushing and pulling feats are also considered a part of this statistic. Telekinesis or other similar abilities must be specifically referred to as separate from physical strength, when used in a lifting feat. Tearing is also included in this category, but it is an unreliable method of calculating overall lifting ability a vast majority of the time. This is because the force used in a tearing motion is much lower than a lift, as a tearing motion uses much fewer muscle groups and is an awkward application of force compared to other movements. Likewise throwing or punching an object a certain height upwards can be used as lifting feats, as these would require greater strength then just lifting the object.
While Striking Strength measures the energy of the characters physical attacks, Lifting Strength measures the amount of mass they can lift, which is determined by the amount of force a character can produce. This means they measure two different physical quantities. Furthermore it can't be assumed that a character that can physically produce the amount of energy used in lifting an object by a certain height can also lift it, if it didn't demonstrate the ability to produce that level of Lifting Strength. It is a common feature within fiction to feature characters capable of vastly greater physical striking strength energy outputs than what would be required to lift weights that they are repeatedly shown to struggle with.
Hence Lifting Strength and Striking Strength are in general not comparable and should be evaluated separately.
Draft
Lifting Strength is defined as the mass that an individual can lift on Earth. In other words it measures the amount of upwards force a character can produce. As such appropriate pushing and pulling feats are also considered a part of this statistic. Telekinesis or other similar abilities must be specifically referred to as separate from physical strength, when used in a lifting feat. Tearing is also included in this category, but it is an unreliable method of calculating overall lifting ability a vast majority of the time. This is because the force used in a tearing motion is much lower than a lift, as a tearing motion uses much fewer muscle groups and is an awkward application of force compared to other movements. Likewise throwing or punching an object a certain height upwards can be used as lifting feats, as these would require greater strength then just lifting the object.
While Striking Strength measures the energy of the characters physical attacks, Lifting Strength measures the amount of mass they can lift, which is determined by the amount of force a character can produce. This means they measure two different physical quantities. Furthermore it can't be assumed that a character that can physically produce the amount of energy used in lifting an object by a certain height can also lift it, if it didn't demonstrate the ability to produce that level of Lifting Strength. It is a common feature within fiction to feature characters capable of vastly greater physical striking strength energy outputs than what would be required to lift weights that they are repeatedly shown to struggle with.
Hence Lifting Strength and Striking Strength are in general not comparable and should be evaluated separately.
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