Garou Lifting Strength Calc Discussion

[Dark-Carioca]

I'm leaning moreso towards Therefir's version.

 

[LaserPrecision]

It was in reference to what I said. I guess I misunderstood or you misunderstood or maybe we both did, so I'll clarify again. When I said "someone punches through 2 bricks" I did not mean that as WoG, but as that simply being what we observe. Basically "it looks like a punch", but people contest whether it is one.

Ah, thanks for the clarification. I understand your example, if someone punched through two bricks, it is very self-evident. I thought the hypothetical point of contention was how many bricks broke, not whether it was a fist or not.

A better example would be a little rocket flying into some jello like substance. Can you tell me how much of the distance it covers in the jello is from the initial velocity and how much is from it continuing to propell itself within it? Especially when you dont even know when or even if it decellerated or accelerated as all you get are a few pictures, most of them not even showing the rocket.

I know in some cases, if we don't get the full context, we take conservative lowballs to estimate a value. For me to better understand the example, what would we hypothetically be calculating here?

Yes it does because physics. To go back to the rocket example. If it simply shot right through the jello, would you scale it to LS? (Yes ik Garou never broke through all of earth. Not the point I want to make)

How much Jello is there? If there's an insignificant amount, going by vs wiki standards, no, it'd simply be AP. If the rocket plows through dozens of kilometers of Jello, it would likely require some relevant amount of force (This analogy is a bit confusing since this is going through the Jelly vs pushing/shifting a continent).

It's actually a very good word to use. If I place my hands on an object and then push, there is an impulse, but not an impact.

The definition of impact is to come into contact with something forcibly. If you forcibly push your hands against an object and push, that would be an impact. Your hands impacted the object in question in order to begin pushing it. I'm not saying the act of pushing the object in itself is an impact, but that you need to make an impact with the object you're going to push with your hands before you exert a continuous force to push it.

Well, it's pretty simple. They claim you can split it into two (impact and LS) without bringing evidence as to why (you'd need to be able to give reason as to why it switched from impact to LS at the point you claim it did). I claim you can't do that because there is no evidence, thus making it one feat (Just the impact. Him continuing to push is just part of it which can not be differentiated).

This is under the premise that the impact is what caused the continent to shift. Would you mind briefing me on the chronological even at which the feat occured? If the feat went as followed; Moment of impact ---> Continent shifts ---> Garo continues to push, then you're right without a doubt, as the initial impact is what caused the continent to shift.

If it went this way; Moment of impact ---> Garo pushing into the earth for an unspecified amount of time ---> Continent shifts, then lifting strength is applicable, as it would've been the pushing part of the feat that caused it. Not the moment of impact.

Imagine a world where people are superhuman. You run at a car at hypersonic speeds with your fist out, the moment you strike the car (the moment of impact), it somehow doesn't budge (Assume it's built to easily withstand superhumans), but you continue to run past that point, and start pushing the car with you as you run, moving the car 10 kilometers before you stop pushing it. The only part that couldn't be calculated is the initial impact as that would only go towards AP. However, the pushing you did do does count torwards LS.

I'm saying that if Garo's punch in itself didn't shift the continent, but instead, it was the pushing that followed that caused it, it would be LS and AP (Via the Kinetic Energy it takes to push the continental plate that fast).

1. Move an object from 0 to something (the classic of lifting weights)
2. Keep an object moving (moving something at a constant speed. The force you need to overcome here is equal to the force wanting to slow it down/stop it)
3. Increase the speed of a moving object (Pretty much the same as the first one. Instead of using the final velocity for acceleration you use the difference.)
4. Slow down the rate of decelleration (Applying less force than the force that is trying to stop the movement.)

The issue is that we clearly see the impact dent stuff, meaning it would be either 2, 3 or 4, which are all vastly different and more importantly yield far lower results. Worst of all, they are absolutely impossible to calc from a few manga panels that dont even show Garou. Especially option 2 and 4, which are the most likely case here.

I think I understand now what we're arguing about, and it's my fault for not being precise about it. You believe it could be 2 or 4. All of my analogies were under the assumption that the impact didn't increase the speed of the continent moved at all, and it still remained at zero, and that it was the pushing that followed that gave it momentum, which would thus qualify as a LS and AP feat. This isn't of course what I believe, but what I think the people arguing in favor of it were trying to express. Again, if Garo's punch (the moment of impact) was actually shown to give the continent any momentum, then I agree, it isn't useable. If it wasn't shown to give it momentum, and it was the pushing that followed the moment of impact, it is valid. Hopefully, when or if you give me a chronological briefing on the events that occurred (Or a link to the chapter would work), this can be cleared up.

From a physics point of view, they differ greatly, even if a punch is just a realy quick push.

I believed your premise was that a punch could never be translated to a lifting strength feat, even if a person continued pushing their fist against the object past the original point of impact. So apologies for the misunderstanding there. We actually agree on this after all.

Funny thing is nobody has brought any proof for that yet. It's just a baseless claim as of now.

Yea, I was hoping other people would provide proof as we discussed, but understandably they're kind of just watching us talk back and forth.

Same direction

Also, you should rly read the chapter, makes debating this kinda hard otherwise.

I did originally come in to just ask you to also provide evidence for your claim as I currently still don't have a stance on if it's LS or not as I haven't read the chapter. I honestly didn't expect this discussion to last past the first couple of messages. I probably should read it if I actually take a stance, but the reason I haven't is for that reason. I also don't want to spoil myself as I only read One Punch Man as the physical copies release which means I'm faaaaar behind you all.

 

[Therefir]

@TheRustyOne Your input here would be appreciated.

 

[Migue79]

Okay! Finally not busy.

I think I'll go with Therefir's version given it involves calculating something that was more directly caused by Garou.

 

[Jibz]

Any progress being made over Rather's dispute?

 

[RatherClueless]

not whether it was a fist or not.

It's not about whether it's a fist or not, but whether the punch stopped being a puch at some point even with no indication of that being the case.

For me to better understand the example, what would we hypothetically be calculating here?

Of the rocket? If we actually had all the data we need, we'd calculate the force the jello is exerting on the rocket and to what degree it is overcoming it, as well as how much the initial velocity impacted that.

How much Jello is there? If there's an insignificant amount, going by vs wiki standards, no, it'd simply be AP. If the rocket plows through dozens of kilometers of Jello, it would likely require some relevant amount of force (This analogy is a bit confusing since this is going through the Jelly vs pushing/shifting a continent).

Going through the jello does require moving/pushing things. Tho I accept that that might not be the best example. Basically what I am talking about is impact depth with the projectile having its own method of propulsion. You can think of the entire Garou feat as pushing a spring though.

The definition of impact is to come into contact with something forcibly. If you forcibly push your hands against an object and push, that would be an impact.

Ah, yeah, there is the confusion. When it comes to pushing the assumption is that the contact already exists and that the initial speed difference between what is pushing (for example the hand) and the object being pushed is 0. The only way you can push faster than you are denting/moving the object is if you break through it. The only way to push slower is to . . . you cant actually push slower. That'd make no sense. In the example with the car, both your hand and the car are moving at the same speed before pushing. If you come forcibly into contact, that's what I've been calling a "punch". So, for example, if the car moves at 2m/s and I hit it at 4m/s the energy/momentum converted into movement from the excess speed would not be part of the pushing. The greater the speed difference, the greater the energy converted into movement that doesn't come from pushing. (Just to be clear, this is a very basic explanation and a physicist would spank me for it, kek)

This is under the premise that the impact is what caused the continent to shift. Would you mind briefing me on the chronological even at which the feat occured?

Garou turns into some kind of jet high up in the air and slams Saitama into the ground -> We see them impact into a mountain (on this panel is the first half of the name for the attack) -> We see the mountain dent inwards, almost looking a bit like a doughnut of sorts (on this panel we have the rest of the attacks name) -> We see how the rock can't keep up with being deformed like this and breaks, revealing a deep hole -> we get a cross section showing us the dent and shockwaves caused -> we get to see the continent raise from the shockwaves on the other side of the planet and Blast reacts -> first time we see Garou again after the first point, seeing how he pushes Saitama. We do not know how far he pushed him since the cross section or even of fast they are or if they are even still denting the crust or or or. It is a very non descriptive panel besides having some rocks fly past them.

The claim is that the impact was only the mountain smashing and nothing past that. So far there is no evidence supporting that claim.

I believed your premise was that a punch could never be translated to a lifting strength feat, even if a person continued pushing their fist against the object past the original point of impact. So apologies for the misunderstanding there. We actually agree on this after all.

Every punch has (in theory) LS to it. Just that the faster/stronger the punch gets, the more insignifacnt it becomes. (Physicists would hit me for that too, but I rly dont feel like elaborating on how impulse, momentum, convervation of energy, etc work in great detail). Basically what you have to know is that "pushing" (impulse) is the application of Newtons over time, which changes the velocity of the object. A "punch" has also an impulse, but more importantly an existing momentum (velocity x mass) which has to be preserved and thus carries over onto the object being pushed. In other words, if object A with weight X and velocity 2Y clollides with object B of weight 2X and comes to a stop as a result of that, object B moves at a velocity of Y as a result. Just to be clear, this would never happen like that and the actual calculation would be way different, but I hope it gets the point across.

 

[RatherClueless]

Any progress being made over Rather's dispute?

I dont think most ppl even read it tbh

 

[LaserPrecision]

It's not about whether it's a fist or not, but whether the punch stopped being a puch at some point even with no indication of that being the case.

I'm going to hold off on this point since it coincides with another made towards the end of your reply.

Of the rocket? If we actually had all the data we need, we'd calculate the force the jello is exerting on the rocket and to what degree it is overcoming it, as well as how much the initial velocity impacted that.

So is your conclusion that the feat in this scenario should be completely disregarded because of the lack of data? I feel like working with a lowball using the data we do have would be better than dismissing a feat, that seems impressive because we don't have every variable. I guess it can vary from case to case, since some assumptions are easier to make than others.

Ah, yeah, there is the confusion. When it comes to pushing the assumption is that the contact already exists and that the initial speed difference between what is pushing (for example the hand) and the object being pushed is 0.

If you've "punched" an object, and continued the "stroke" for an indefinite amount of time, that isn't a super long punch (Say you continued the stroke and pushed the box with your fist for 10 seconds, moving it 100 meters), it became a push as that point you've begun to exert a constant force to the object.

Ah, yeah, there is the confusion. When it comes to pushing the assumption is that the contact already exists and that the initial speed difference between what is pushing (for example the hand) and the object being pushed is 0. The only way you can push faster than you are denting/moving the object is if you break through it. The only way to push slower is to . . . you cant actually push slower. That'd make no sense. In the example with the car, both your hand and the car are moving at the same speed before pushing. If you come forcibly into contact, that's what I've been calling a "punch". So, for example, if the car moves at 2m/s and I hit it at 4m/s the energy/momentum converted into movement from the excess speed would not be part of the pushing. The greater the speed difference, the greater the energy converted into movement that doesn't come from pushing. (Just to be clear, this is a very basic explanation and a physicist would spank me for it, kek)

Makes more sense when you word it that way. In the scene, did Garo move the continent over a distance physically, or was his momentum transferred into the continent and it moved without him? If it's the latter, the feat not being LS seems true. If it's the former, we can still derive lifting strength from it. Albeit not from the method used in the blogs.

Garou turns into some kind of jet high up in the air and slams Saitama into the ground -> We see them impact into a mountain (on this panel is the first half of the name for the attack) -> We see the mountain dent inwards, almost looking a bit like a doughnut of sorts (on this panel we have the rest of the attacks name) -> We see how the rock can't keep up with being deformed like this and breaks, revealing a deep hole -> we get a cross section showing us the dent and shockwaves caused -> we get to see the continent raise from the shockwaves on the other side of the planet and Blast reacts -> first time we see Garou again after the first point, seeing how he pushes Saitama. We do not know how far he pushed him since the cross section or even of fast they are or if they are even still denting the crust or or or. It is a very non descriptive panel besides having some rocks fly past them.

The claim is that the impact was only the mountain smashing and nothing past that. So far there is no evidence supporting that claim.

I mean, wouldn't the impact in this case end as soon as one continues to push after having already made forceful contact? If I put both of my hands out palms open and run into the ground at whatever necessary speed to break through the surface (the impact), and continue on for say a minute past that point, would that not just become pushing? At that point, it's just become me constantly applying a specified amount of force.

Everything past this point I understand and agree with.

With that said I'll come to a conclusion. If Garo simply "punched" the Earth, and it caused the continent to shift (via the momentum being transferred to the continent), the feat is invalid as an LS feat. If Garo continued to exert a force over a distance (work) that caused the continent to shift, it's eligible as an LS feat.

 

[TheRustyOne]

@TheRustyOne Your input here would be appreciated.

Not sure what input I can provide, however...

Unless someone can provide evidence that only his pushing "impact" causes the changes in the earth. Than both of the calcs qualify for lifting strength. This is fiction, it will not follow reality and trying to say that it should is laughable. He pushed Saitama into the ground, and as the ground was rising and even after it was shown to rise he is still pushing him further along. Unless someone can provide evidence that his pushing motion did not cause it, we have no reason to not use it as a lifting strength feat.

Also both of the calcs come from the same pushing feat, either he scales to both of them or none of them. He can't scale to the Class Z calc if the Class Y one is also rejected. Both of these moments could've possible been produce by the impact and not his pushing motion. They're the same feat, so they can't be separated

However that argument holds no water to me, as you can say the same thing for the majority of pushing feat in manga. Since we have no way of actually seeing how the motion plays out in real time. But since Garou is producing a pushing motion, we should treat it as a pushing feat unless further evidences comes out to contradict it. I've read through the thread, and no one has provided any convincing arguments or evidence that it was only the impact from his push that cause the bulge for me.

This is an impact. After that impact we see the ground starts folding down like liquid, it's now a pushing feat. Since he is applying constant force as he is propelling himself down. The panels after that is showing it, the ground is going down from this constant force. Look at this picture. The "shockwave" is not shown to be a singular thing.

There are multiple lines of force that is coming from Garou's attack that, which is flowing through the earth. It isn't a single impact, it's a constant force he is pushing into the ground that is coming from one side of the planet and coming out the other side. Which eventually causes a continent to rise out of the ocean.

I believe the panels themselves prove that this is pushing and not just initial impact. If you still disagree, well I cannot convince you otherwise.

TL;DR: He scales to both of calcs or neither of them for his Lifting Strength, since the same argument against the Class Y can be used against the Class Z calc, as they're the same feat. So he cannot scale to Class Z if Class Y is rejected. While I say he does scale, I'm not in the mood to argue for a lifting strength feat beyond what I've already said. So that is all I'm going to say.

 

[Kachon123]

Not sure what input I can provide, however...

Unless someone can provide evidence that only his pushing "impact" causes the changes in the earth. Than both of the calcs qualify for lifting strength. This is fiction, it will not follow reality and trying to say that it should is laughable. He pushed Saitama into the ground, and as the ground was rising and even after it was shown to rise he is still pushing him further along. Unless someone can provide evidence that his pushing motion did not cause it, we have no reason to not use it as a lifting strength feat.

Also both of the calcs come from the same pushing feat, either he scales to both of them or none of them. He can't scale to the Class Z calc if the Class Y one is also rejected. Both of these moments could've possible been produce by the impact and not his pushing motion. They're the same feat, so they can't be separated

However that argument holds no water to me, as you can say the same thing for the majority of pushing feat in manga. Since we have no way of actually seeing how the motion plays out in real time. But since Garou is producing a pushing motion, we should treat it as a pushing feat unless further evidences comes out to contradict it. I've read through the thread, and no one has provided any convincing arguments or evidence that it was only the impact from his push that cause the bulge for me.

This is an impact. After that impact we see the ground starts folding down like liquid, it's now a pushing feat. Since he is applying constant force as he is propelling himself down. The panels after that is showing it, the ground is going down from this constant force. Look at this picture. The "shockwave" is not shown to be a singular thing.

There are multiple lines of force that is coming from Garou's attack that, which is flowing through the earth. It isn't a single impact, it's a constant force he is pushing into the ground that is coming from one side of the planet and coming out the other side. Which eventually causes a continent to rise out of the ocean.

I believe the panels themselves prove that this is pushing and not just initial impact. If you still disagree, well I cannot convince you otherwise.

TL;DR: He scales to both of calcs or neither of them for his Lifting Strength, since the same argument against the Class Y can be used against the Class Z calc, as they're the same feat. So he cannot scale to Class Z if Class Y is rejected. While I say he does scale, I'm not in the mood to argue for a lifting strength feat beyond what I've already said. So that is all I'm going to say.

I agree.

If none of these two calcs are accepted, we might as well just remove them entirely from Garou's page.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Not sure what input I can provide, however...

Unless someone can provide evidence that only his pushing "impact" causes the changes in the earth. Than both of the calcs qualify for lifting strength. This is fiction, it will not follow reality and trying to say that it should is laughable. He pushed Saitama into the ground, and as the ground was rising and even after it was shown to rise he is still pushing him further along. Unless someone can provide evidence that his pushing motion did not cause it, we have no reason to not use it as a lifting strength feat.

Also both of the calcs come from the same pushing feat, either he scales to both of them or none of them. He can't scale to the Class Z calc if the Class Y one is also rejected. Both of these moments could've possible been produce by the impact and not his pushing motion. They're the same feat, so they can't be separated

However that argument holds no water to me, as you can say the same thing for the majority of pushing feat in manga. Since we have no way of actually seeing how the motion plays out in real time. But since Garou is producing a pushing motion, we should treat it as a pushing feat unless further evidences comes out to contradict it. I've read through the thread, and no one has provided any convincing arguments or evidence that it was only the impact from his push that cause the bulge for me.

This is an impact. After that impact we see the ground starts folding down like liquid, it's now a pushing feat. Since he is applying constant force as he is propelling himself down. The panels after that is showing it, the ground is going down from this constant force. Look at this picture. The "shockwave" is not shown to be a singular thing.

There are multiple lines of force that is coming from Garou's attack that, which is flowing through the earth. It isn't a single impact, it's a constant force he is pushing into the ground that is coming from one side of the planet and coming out the other side. Which eventually causes a continent to rise out of the ocean.

I believe the panels themselves prove that this is pushing and not just initial impact. If you still disagree, well I cannot convince you otherwise.

TL;DR: He scales to both of calcs or neither of them for his Lifting Strength, since the same argument against the Class Y can be used against the Class Z calc, as they're the same feat. So he cannot scale to Class Z if Class Y is rejected. While I say he does scale, I'm not in the mood to argue for a lifting strength feat beyond what I've already said. So that is all I'm going to say.

What’s the point of saying this if you won’t defend your claims?

You said so many things that wrong but it’s pointless to reply since you don’t plan to argue for your claims

 

[Kachon123]

Most of the staff and CGM's that have commented on this thread have said they agree with the class Z end.d

 

[RatherClueless]

I know you wont reply, but I'll go through this anyways, since someone else can tackle these topics for you.

This is fiction, it will not follow reality and trying to say that it should is laughable.

Are you claiming we can ignore conservation of momentum, one of the most fundamental laws of physics, which is absolutely essential to most feats and absolutely to lifting feats? If so, we might as well just not calc anything. It's not even like I am debating for drag forces or try to debate with how much force the magma would push against Garou or anything like this. If you want to ignore conservation of energy and momentum, might as well ignore time and space.

Unless someone can provide evidence that his pushing motion did not cause it, we have no reason to not use it as a lifting strength feat.

It's the other way around. Prove that a non insignicant portion is LS. I have brought evidence both rooted in physics as well as pointing it out on the panels themselves. The other side simply declared their version a fact without bothering to provide evidence.

However that argument holds no water to me, as you can say the same thing for the majority of pushing feat in manga.

So you justify this calc by saying other scenes in manga are hard for us to calculate, so it's fine to ignore the most basic laws of physics which we see apply to this feat on panel just so we can get values to put on a profile? If we can't calc something, we cant calc something. If we can't make assumptions based on what is shown, we can't make assumptions based on what is shown. Easy as that. Forcing calcs where we know they'd be inaccurate is crazy. At that point, dont make calcs at all.

But since Garou is producing a pushing motion, we should treat it as a pushing feat unless further evidences comes out to contradict it.

You do realize that we can swap Garou for a fireworks rocket strapped to a metiorite and claim that the damage caused by the impact was actually LS because the rocket was exerting a downwards force even past impact, right? I hope I don't have to explain why that's silly. And I swear to god if someone calls false equivalency on this

This is an impact. After that impact we see the ground starts folding down like liquid, it's now a pushing feat.

Mind explaining rather than claiming? 2/3rds of the attack name is literally on that panel. The entire point of that panel is to show that he was hitting into the mountain at speeds so great that the rock bent before it broke. Nothing here indicated pushing besides headcanon.

The panels after that is showing it, the ground is going down from this constant force.

Explain, dont claim.

Look at this picture. The "shockwave" is not shown to be a singular thing.

There are 3 shockwaves on the very panel you claimed was an impact. What's your point. Didn't you say we cant expect fiction to follow physics? So why is several shockwaves suddenly a valid argument for your claim. You do realize the moment you said that, everything you want to base on even the most basic of physics became irrelevant to your point, right?

There are multiple lines of force that is coming from Garou's attack that, which is flowing through the earth. It isn't a single impact, it's a constant force he is pushing into the ground that is coming from one side of the planet and coming out the other side. Which eventually causes a continent to rise out of the ocean.

I really didn't want to start and throw "but muh fallacies" around as I consider it to be a very toxic form of debating, but this is just silly. All your points are just begging the question, unwarrented assumptions and arguments from incredulity. You dont say anything of value. "I am right and this is how it is, which I can prove by assuming that my points are accurate" is not a valid argument. Your entire post becomes irrelevant due to that. Thanks, have a nice day, try again.

I believe the panels themselves prove that this is pushing and not just initial impact.

They don't. Not a single bit of eidence for that claim has been given. All that's been done is claim that the physics LS is based on dont apply because it's fiction, which doesn't do much as our side isn't the one that claims there is a valid reason to split this feat into two at an exact point in time with no evidence provided outside of claiming it to be true. The fact that this is contested means simply saying "because I say so" isn't enough.

 

[RatherClueless]

So is your conclusion that the feat in this scenario should be completely disregarded because of the lack of data? I feel like working with a lowball using the data we do have would be better than dismissing a feat, that seems impressive because we don't have every variable. I guess it can vary from case to case, since some assumptions are easier to make than others.

I wouldn't dismiss it. I'd dismiss it for LS as we can't prove to what extent LS is involved. However, in the case with Garou it's not even a lowball. It assumes as much as it can.

If you've "punched" an object, and continued the "stroke" for an indefinite amount of time, that isn't a super long punch (Say you continued the stroke and pushed the box with your fist for 10 seconds, moving it 100 meters), it became a push as that point you've begun to exert a constant force to the object.

Most likely.

In the scene, did Garo move the continent over a distance physically, or was his momentum transferred into the continent and it moved without him? If it's the latter, the feat not being LS seems true.

Thats why there are two calcs. One assumes that the shockwaves that traveled through the planet and raised the continent are LS. The other one assumes that denting the continental plate on his side of the planet is LS.

I mean, wouldn't the impact in this case end as soon as one continues to push after having already made forceful contact?

See the fireworks rocket example I gave TheRustyOne

and continue on for say a minute past that point, would that not just become pushing?

Not necessarily. For all we know Garou had enough momentum to plow through earth and his pushin was only decreasing his rate of decelleration. Even if it did, unless you can prove he accelerated, it isn't worth much.

 

[LaserPrecision]

Thats why there are two calcs. One assumes that the shockwaves that traveled through the planet and raised the continent are LS. The other one assumes that denting the continental plate on his side of the planet is LS.

Oh, in that case, I disagree with the application of LS. Shockwaves in no way should scale to someone's LS. Maybe denting the plate could use Work to calculate LS since work only requires a force over a distance as opposed to time. You can derive Force from Work by dividing the energy (in joules) from the displacement (in meters) of which both could be found. Though if the giant hole in the ground was created from his energy transferral into the ground it wouldn't be applicable. If it was caused by him pushing through all of it, it should be fine.

Not necessarily. For all we know Garou had enough momentum to plow through earth and his pushin was only decreasing his rate of decelleration. Even if it did, unless you can prove he accelerated, it isn't worth much.

That seems like work to me. As I mentioned earlier. Exerting a force over a distance. Such as pushing say, a wooden crate 10 meters.

 

[RatherClueless]

That seems like work to me. As I mentioned earlier. Exerting a force over a distance. Such as pushing say, a wooden crate 10 meters.

More like shooting a bullet through a melon.

 

[LaserPrecision]

More like shooting a bullet through a melon.

Well it does exert a force over a distance. In this case, I assume you'd need to calculate the energy needed to pierce through the watermelon and divide that by the distance it covered inside the watermelon to get the bullets LS in that instant. Wouldn't be very impressive as Watermelon aren't particularly durable, but still something. I haven't seen many people calculate lifting strength through this method, but wouldn't calc'ing the drag give a decent result?

 

[RatherClueless]

You don't see ppl calculate LS from that because that isn't LS. Just because you can break something down into Newtons it isn't automatically LS.

 

[Therefir]

More like shooting a bullet through a melon.

You are being ridiculous, the surface was pushed inward, instead of being destroyed as an impact would have done, or are you trying to say OPM's Earth is elastic or have Low 5-B durability so that Garou's "impact" wouldn't have destroyed the surface?

In page 10-11 we see Garou pushing into the mountain, and in the next three pages he slowly flatten the mountain and displace the lithosphere.

And the only reason why I made my calc is because people were complaining (it's only Pain12) that the continental plate was pushed through the shockwaves caused by Garou at the other side of the planet.

I really don't care which calc is chosen, but I find it stupid how something as clearly as Garou pushing quintillion tons is ignored by baseless headcanon and "he might have pushed the surface too fast to be considered LS! It's clearly striking strength!".

 

[Kachon123]

Is there even any proof that what was shown are shockwaves? It could very well just be physical ripples and displacement of the core that came out on the other side of the Earth, pushing the land-mass upwards.

 

[RatherClueless]

or are you trying to say OPM's Earth is elastic

idk. are you? How is this fine under the assumption that he pushed, but is invalid under the assumption that he impacted. It is equally weird under both situations. Maybe even a bit worse under yours, as fiction often depicts feats "so fast, the material cant even keep up with it". Whether it is a swordsman cutting something and it only falling apart a bit later or something being punched for the actual damage to appear delayed or in waves.

or have Low 5-B durability so that Garou's "impact" wouldn't have destroyed the surface?

Are you claiming Garou is less than mountain level because his impact didn't even destroy a mountain, let alone blowing up a significant part of the planet? More power to you Ig. Seriously though, what you claim to be his impact pretty much destroyed nothing, as we can see in panel 12, most of the mountains tip has simply been dented inwards, rather than being shattered.

and in the next three pages he slowly flatten the mountain and displace the lithosphere.

Where does it say slowly? Where does it even imply slow? Wouldn't the assumption be that he was so fast that the rock bend before snapping? I mean, heck, are you sure you got the panels right? 11 and 12 are so fast after one another, the name for his attack was split between them.

"he might have pushed the surface too fast to be considered LS! It's clearly striking strength!"

Strawman. Not the point and after all this debating it should be more than evident.

 

[Therefir]

idk. are you? How is this fine under the assumption that he pushed, but is invalid under the assumption that he impacted.

It's not an assumption, rocks show ductile behavior (i.e. deformations) when subjected to slow stresses over a prolonged period of time.

as we can see in panel 12, most of the mountains tip has simply been dented inwards, rather than being shattered.

More reasons to justify that the mountain and lithosphere were slowly pushed inward instead of being torn apart as would have happened with a high velocity impact.

Where does it say slowly? Where does it even imply slow? Wouldn't the assumption be that he was so fast that the rock bend before snapping?

What you say makes no sense, since when do rocks bend from rapid impact? You want to know when a rock can bend? When you stress it slow enough to not exceed its fracture point.

"At high strain rates material tends to fracture. At low strain rates more time is available for individual atoms to move and therefore ductile behavior is favored."

The reason why Garou couldn't break the lithosphere is precisely because he was pushing too slow.

"Even in the shallow crust where rocks are cool and relatively brittle, folding can occur if the stress is slow and steady and gives the rock enough time to gradually bend. If the stress is applied too quickly, rocks in the shallow crust will behave as brittle solids and break."

 

[RatherClueless]

It's not an assumption, rocks show ductile behavior (i.e. deformations) when subjected to slow stresses over a prolonged period of time.

You do realize just what kind of absurd time frame you are claiming with that, right? And if you now gonna claim real life physics dont apply, dont make this claim at all.

What you say makes no sense, since when do rocks bend from rapid impact? You want to know when a rock can bend?

Good job on ignoring half of my first message.

Actually, good job on ignoring all but the least important bits, taking my arguments out of context, acting like I haven't sustained them with other evidence.

 

[Tural2004]

Bump

 

[Bernkastelll]

We can literally see that Garou is PUSHING

 

[Phoenks]

I believe both calculations are suitable for use for the same reasons as Therefir and RustyOne.

 

[Epiccheev]

Hypothetically speaking if both calcs are accepted and are different interpretations of the same feat with no objectively correct choice, would it be possible to add them to Garou's profile like "Lifting strength: Class Z (Therefir's calc), possibly Class Y (Zamasu's calc)"?

 

[PrinceofPein]

The class Y is totally wrong
It’s shockwaves not physical
If it was physical there will be as much of a dent in the earth as the bump

 

[Kachon123]

It’s shockwaves not physical

How do you know? Was it ever stated that it was a shockwave? The ripples we see could quite literally be the displacement in the Core due to the feat.

 

[PrinceofPein]

How do you know? Was it ever stated that it was a shockwave? The ripples we see could quite literally be the displacement in the Core due to the feat.

No it’s not, that’s quite literally the meaning of shockwaves

How tf does that show any thing called displacement in core?

 

[Veronica]

It seems he pushed so hard that the force of the shockwave bulged the earth not his own strength necessarily unless shockwaves is his lifting strength.

 

[Phoenks]

Hypothetically speaking if both calcs are accepted and are different interpretations of the same feat with no objectively correct choice, would it be possible to add them to Garou's profile like "Lifting strength: Class Z (Therefir's calc), possibly Class Y (Zamasu's calc)"?

If they are both valid and accepted (Which seems to be the majority consensus here), then the higher one should be the one on the page.

 

[PrinceofPein]

If they are both valid and accepted (Which seems to be the majority consensus here), then the higher one should be the one on the page.

You still have not said how shockwaves grant LS
Or you think the class Y is not by shockwaves?

 

[RatherClueless]

We can literally see that Garou is PUSHING

You clearly didn't bother to read through the thread. That was never a point of contention.

 

[Kachon123]

The majority of people, including most if not all CGM that have given input agree on the calcs being usable, and that the Class Z calc makes most sense. There's no point in debating that anymore.

Some people have brought up that Garou's LS should look something like this:

"Lifting strength: Class Z (Therefir's calc), possibly Class Y (Zamasu's calc)"

What are everyone's thoughts on this?

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

The majority of people, including most if not all CGM that have given input agree on the calcs being usable, and that the Class Z calc makes most sense. There's no point in debating that anymore.

Some people have brought up that Garou's LS should look something like this:

What are everyone's thoughts on this?

I agree.

 

[Kachon123]

I agree.

Agree to possibly?

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Agree to possibly?

Yes.

 

[TheRustyOne]

You still have not said how shockwaves grant LS
Or you think the class Y is not by shockwaves?

This was something I somewhat explained above, but I'll go into more clear detail now.

It doesn't matter. Because the wave is continuous and formed from pushing. You must provide evidence that this "shockwave" came from a singular impact, and isn't being constantly generated by his constant pushing. Prove the "shockwave" he is forming is singular and not a constant wave going through the planet.

Note: Saying everything in between should be affected is not an argument. This is fiction, Garou can't performed this feat not matter what. He'd just fly straight through the Earth if his AP really was Low 5-B+. Fiction can do whatever the hell it wants, and we need to try and make sense of it as much as we can. If someone punched the ground in order to cause a shockwave which destroyed something on the other side, that is still an AP feat despite how absurd it is. Same is true for LS feats as well.

He is pushing and we see a wave to come out from his origin point. Since this energy comes from him pushing into the ground, and not from a strike like a punch. This scales to his lifting strength, since this is a continuous motion and not a singular impact. The wave didn't exist for a single moment, it's constantly being applied.

If this was done via a single impact, the land mass wouldn't gradually rise like it's shown to. It would rise up violently and quickly as all of that energy would've hit it by the time it reached the other side. But that isn't the case, it rises up slowly and takes 15 seconds (calc timeframe). It wouldn't do that unless Garou was constantly applying this force, as we see he is doing in the later panels. There is no reason to assume this was done via impact without providing evidence, not speculation.

I'm rather bad at debating, so I hope I'm being clear. It being a wave doesn't matter, since this wave is continuous and formed by a continuous motion that is called pushing. To argue against what is shown to use, you must provide evidence that the wave wasn't formed from his pushing motion but by his impact. And I've already explained why I'm against that up above.

Then we later find out Garou didn't make the bulge, it was God doing something.

 

[Tural2004]

I'm rather bad at debating

And I am Joe Biden