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Garen vs Saber

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I was asking you.

Anyway, Mach 1500/900+, that's about 1.66 (or less) times faster than her. Because Saber's was keeping up with Lancer when she was under Shirou's control (at which point she has C rank agility to his A rank), and I think she probably could have beaten him in her Alter form (which has D rank agility to his A rank, in addition to worse instincts). In this fight, at top form, she should have either A or B agility.

Parameter Rules
Under Nasuverse Parameter Guidelines, shown to the right, a D rank is worth 20 arbitrary units, C rank is worth 30, and an A rank is worth 50.
50 is 1.66 times 30, and 50 is 2.5 times 20.

Despite this difference, she could still fight evenly and likely defeat Lancer. And I also must stress that was when she was under Shirou's mastery, and only had C rank agility. Depending on whether this is UBW or Zero Saber (both are 7-A), she either has a B rank in agility or an A rank, respectively.

So in other words, that speed difference is not going to be that important.
 
I highly doubt dura negation is going to work against Excalibur considering it is a Divine Construct, so she can still block his strikes. Which would be even easier with her AP advantage. And again, that's assuming she even counts as a Villain, which is still up in the air, as it largely relies on game mechanics which I am not convinced translate to a "real life" fight.

Magic negation is only going to be useful against an Excaliblast, and I'd like proof that it can nullify a High 7-A blast. If it also works via his sword, that is only going to be useful against her armour, and she has experienced Gae Dearg before, plus her Instincts would warn her against it and tell her to dodge or block rather than tank (which is generally what she does anyway)
 
According to DMUA Saber has killed a lot of people so yes, she'd likely qualify. It sorta like Sans' KR except it actually has to do with the opponent killing people.

It likely wouldnt null Excaliblast no. Would she be able to sense that it nulls magic though?
 
I'm sure people like Jarvan and Lux have killed a lot of people, and I doubt he considers them villains. If the lore itself states that who he considers a villain depends on how many people he's killed, sure, but if that is just coming from the game's "villain is whoever killed the most people on his team", I'd consider that gameplay mechanics.

@Bepo she hasn't killed anyone his his team though, so if we are arguing game mechanics are canon, it still doesn't work.

@Weekly the sword? Yes. Her Instincts are basically precognition, and against Garen, it is neither countered by Eyes of the Mind, nor does she lack experience with a magic nullifying weapon as she was against Lancer.
 
Gargoyle One said:
When has a divine construct stopped Durability negation?
Click to expand...
When it wasn't destroyed by an Ea blast dislocating space and time?

Because it's a Divine Construct, which is basically a Divine Spirit in weapon form, which are beings that have all sorts of durability negation abilities, all of which they can presumably counter when they fight each other?

Because it's made to defeat against threats that could destroy the world, like the Beasts and aliens, who can negate durability in many ways themselves?

All of the above.
 
Given all that, I think I will vote for Saber via Instincts and experience with faster opponents countering his higher speed, Instincts, Excalibur and possibly a lack-of-game-mechanics countering his dura negation, Excaliblasts and Instincts countering his magic negation, and higher AP

Also nigh-instantaneous Low-Mid Regenerationn is nice.
 
If thats the case then isnt this unfair for Garen?

Basically the only things he had going for him are speed and dura negation but apparently Saber can nope both of them
 
Mkay, Saber FRA then

I feel the need to specify that in no way am i agreeing with anyone other than Monarch
 
This is the only mention of Garen's Villain mechanic in any material:

'Demacian Justice TARGET RANGE: 400 COOLDOWN: 120 / 100 / 80 Demacian Justice


Passive: The enemy with the most kills in the last 5 minutes is marked as the Villain. The mark cannot be assigned to another champion while Garen is in combat with the Villain. If more than one enemy has the same bounty, the enemy who received it first is marked the Villain.

Garen's basic attacks and each spin of Judgment Judgment against the Villain deal 1% of their maximum health as bonus Hybrid penetration true damage on-hit.


Active: Garen calls upon the might of Demacia to attempt to execute the target enemy champion, dealing them Ability power magic damage, converted to true damage when targeting the Villain.'
 
I'm sorry what?

<Garen's Dura negation won't work

<He's almost 4x weaker

<She can one shot instantly with a High 7A blast

<Instincts see everything

Umm.....

How is this not a stomp?
 
Because he's still entirely capable of defeating her. It's just not the most likely outcome.

4 times weaker is not insurmountable. It just means he needs to hit her four more times than normal.

Instincts are just letting her counter his higher speed and know she should block or dodge his attacks rather than tank them.

High 7-A blast would probably get a bit of it nulled, even if definitely not all, so I don't knaow about one shot.
 
Winning? How? By beating her to death? When she's almost 4x stronger then him? When she can literally kill him with a single good slash? When she can one shot with a single undodgeable unblockable High 7A attack?

There is no "Outcome"
 
<Speed is literally nothing

<A bit nulled when even a 700 megaton vaporization attack is enough to one shot

Everything he can do gets him rekt or won't do much

Everything she can do wrecks him

\_(-_-)_/
 
Decisive, not a stomp.

Fine line, but he is still capable of winning. He can still harm her. He can still kill her.

Speed was only equalised if necessary, and it wasn't necessary. It has been debated, it's not "nothing"
 
<Beating someone almost 4x stronger then you to death when literally all your main Hax means nothing

I suppose he can kill her if she were to stand there and not do nothing.

1.66x against precog is exactly that. Nothing.

Not really sure how this is a notable victory in any way, same with most Star Wars matches, but if it somehow is, go ahead and add I guess.
 
So in my opinion the villain mechanic as being a kill-count is pretty iffy. The reason that the biggest killer is deemed the villain is because that is who Garen views as the one who has wronged him and his team the most.

Whoever Garen perceives as a villain is a villain, but those who he sees as honorable or worthy probably wouldn't succumb to the durability-negating portion of Demacian Justice.
 
How is it iffy when it's literally stated in the ability description?

'Demacian Justice TARGET RANGE: 400 COOLDOWN: 120 / 100 / 80 Demacian Justice


Passive: The enemy with the most kills in the last 5 minutes is marked as the Villain. The mark cannot be assigned to another champion while Garen is in combat with the Villain. If more than one enemy has the same bounty, the enemy who received it first is marked the Villain.

Garen's basic attacks and each spin of Judgment Judgment against the Villain deal 1% of their maximum health as bonus Hybrid penetration true damage on-hit.


Active: Garen calls upon the might of Demacia to attempt to execute the target enemy champion, dealing them Ability power magic damage, converted to true damage when targeting the Villain.'

It's right there, any other opinions are invalid or flat out lies. It's all game mechanics.
 
@Monarch it was already concluded

And this is like the fifth time he's pulled something like this, seventh or eigth he's just flat out called me a liar because i dont agree with him
 
Wait, wat I saw the vote count and skimmed through the thing.

ffs this is why you read in detail.
 
Also to answer Monrch's question yes, the game and Summoner's Rift are directly referenced in Aurelion Sol's Lore, he witnesses some of the battles that took place there between the Magelords and Protectorate clans.

But yeah, this is concluded
 
WeeklyBattles said:
Also to answer Monrch's question yes, the game and Summoner's Rift are directly referenced in Aurelion Sol's Lore, he witnesses some of the battles that took place there between the Magelords and Protectorate clans.
Click to expand...
That's... not Champions though
 
@Monarch New to the LoL lore? The Magelords and Protectorate are the two sides of Summoner's Rift, the game itself. The Magelords and Protectorate are the summoners, the ones fighting on the battlefield are the champions that were summoned
 
Isn't the game retconned out though? Are you sure its not just referring to the two clans directly battling each other, as they (I think it was them) did before the game was established in the old lore?

Wasn't the whole point of the game in the old lore so that the opposing armies wouldn't eventually turn the whole place into a magically irradiated wasteland?
 
The game was never retconned, the only things that were retconned were the institute of war and the fields of justice (basically they just retconned Summoner's Rift being used as a means of political means but didnt retcon its entire existence). Summoner's Rift still exists in the lore and in the world and even has a designated area, in the world (a remote forest between Freljord, and the Ironspike Mountains) and a specific use (Summoner's Rift is one of a few locations in Valoran where magical energy is at its greatest concentration, making it a highly sought-after locale to pursue magical endeavors) and has even been shown in cinematics such as A New Dawn. The battlefield itself has two sides representative of the Magelords and the Protectorate, but historically the Summoner's Rift didnt always exist as Aatrox's lore also has him intervening in a battle between the two sides that wasnt fought on Summoner's Rift, meaning the Rift was established later, whereas Sol's lore has him witnessing battles on the Rift itself between two groups of summoners and the warriors they summoned.
 
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