Ganondorf (High 4-C) vs Bowser (High 4-C)

[Zogriel]

That instance in NSMB is the exeption rather than the rule, seeing how in many games he casually strolls though lava and has fallen into lava several times and emerged unscathed.
Well, that can also be apply to Ganon's weakness; I've seen people say is NLF because he can be hurt in Zelda 1, but Bowser is rather killed or defeated by lava pits in Super Mario Bros., New Super Mario Bros., Super Mario 3D Land, New Super Mario Bros. 2 and Super Mario Maker Bowser not to mention the other games where he is defeated by bombs (Mario 64 or Super Princess Peach) Ganondorf can go for the victory by Knocking/Incapacitating if this is the case.

Saying Ganon is only weak to holy weapons is wrong, seeing how in games like the original Legend of Zelda and Ocarina of Time he can be gravely injured by regular weapons like the Megaton Hammer.
This can be also apply to Bowser's lava resistance or bombs durability. In both Zelda games Ganon cannot be defeated if the player don't use the Silver Arrows (holy weapon) or the Master Sword.

The Triforce being made by the Goddesses has no barring on this fight, considering that the Triforce is nowhere near as powerful as its creators, and the Goddesses are not omnipotent.
Why? The Triforce has shown the power to create another Triforce in A Link Between Worlds and Hyrule Historia says the Triforce is omnipotent.

That's not how it works. You can't say Ganon has greater durability than Bowser just because the Goddesses made the Triforce and gave it better wishes.
No, Im saing that Ganon has greater durability due to Invulnerability + Resistance to Existance Erasure; I don't see how Bowser can kill him without a holy weapon, and before you mention the Star Rod, I have to say that Ganon has the Triforce to erase Bowser and I don´t see in Bowser's abilities some kind of resistance to that.

I'm not going to say Ganon can erase Bowser with a wish, because the Triforce hasn't shown the ability to erase people
But it does and it's used fot that purpose in Skyward Sword.

Whereas Ganon doesn't really resist any of Bowsers abilities. While Ganon does have resistance to sealing (One of Bowsers abilities), it's not very good resistance seeing how he's been sealed away multiple times and needs years to break out of them, so Bowser can more than likely seal him away.
I don´t know how powerful is Bowser's sealing Magic, but it depends on the seal. In Skyward Sword, he manage to break out multiple times despite being weakened.

Also Ganon has no counter for Bowsers "Endless Staircase" trick, what's to stop Bowser from keeping Ganon away with spatial manipulation while spanning transmutation or sealing spells? Now Bowser doesn't resist all of Ganons magic (Like mind control) but he resists a decent chunk of it, limiting Ganons options.
I think he can use Teleportation in Twilight Princess, plus, spaming Transmutation or Sealing, depending how he use it, Ganon has Ilusion Creation + Invisibility to make Bowser miss all his attacks

 

[Dust_Collector]

Well, that can also be apply to Ganon's weakness; I've seen people say is NLF because he can be hurt in Zelda 1, but Bowser is rather killed or defeated by lava pits in Super Mario Bros., New Super Mario Bros., Super Mario 3D Land, New Super Mario Bros. 2 and Super Mario Maker Bowser not to mention the other games where he is defeated by bombs (Mario 64 or Super Princess Peach) Ganondorf can go for the victory by Knocking/Incapacitating if this is the case.

My point was that you can't use Bowser sometimes being hurt by lava to downplay his durability. You said "Bowser has recently shown an absurd amount of durability too; however this is not the case in most other games. It is more known and iconic that Bowser is defeated by a lava pit in which sometimes it skeletonizes him into Dry Bowser." Which sounds like that you trying to use that point to make Bowser seem less durable than he actually is. Being defeated by bombs also doesn't mean anything for his durability seeing how bombs vary in strength in fiction. An example being Zelda bombs which can dish out small island level force, which is far different than what bombs are capable of in the real world or in games like Megaman where robots like Napalm Man have hurt the small planet level Mega Man with his bombs.

This can be also apply to Bowser's lava resistance or bombs durability. In both Zelda games Ganon cannot be defeated if the player don't use the Silver Arrows (holy weapon) or the Master Sword.

The difference being that Bowser has been shown multiple times that he can be unaffected by lava whereas Ganon has never shown to be resistant to conventional forms of attack. And just because Link couldn't defeat Ganon without holy weapons doesn't mean Bowser couldn't defeat him.

Why? The Triforce has shown the power to create another Triforce in A Link Between Worlds and Hyrule Historia says the Triforce is omnipotent.

The Triforce creating another Triforce proves what exactly? And the Triforce being omnipotent is obvious hyperbole.

No, Im saing that Ganon has greater durability due to Invulnerability + Resistance to Existance Erasure; I don't see how Bowser can kill him without a holy weapon, and before you mention the Star Rod, I have to say that Ganon has the Triforce to erase Bowser and I don´t see in Bowser's abilities some kind of resistance to that.

Oh thats why you were saying it, my mistake I completely misinterpreted that. Anyway, what makes Ganon invulnerable? He can be hurt by conventional attacks and is also physically weaker than Bowser. And resistance to existence erasure also has no impact on Ganons durability, it just means he can resist existence erasing attacks.

But it does and it's used fot that purpose in Skyward Sword.

Are you referring to when it was used to destroy Demise? Because last I checked nothing implied it erased him existence. He was just killed.

I don´t know how powerful is Bowser's sealing Magic, but it depends on the seal. In Skyward Sword, he manage to break out multiple times despite being weakened.

That was Demise not Ganon. And even then Demise was stuck in that seal for hundreds for years before he finally becan breaking out of it during Skyward Sword. Bowsers sealing is good enough that it takes the combined power of 71 power stars to free Peach from her seal.

I think he can use Teleportation in Twilight Princess, plus, spaming Transmutation or Sealing, depending how he use it, Ganon has Ilusion Creation + Invisibility to make Bowser miss all his attacks.

Seeing how Bowsers got universal range I doubt he's gonna miss Ganon.

 

[Zogriel]

My point was that you can't use Bowser sometimes being hurt by lava to downplay his durability. You said [...] Which sounds like that you trying to use that point to make Bowser seem less durable than he actually is.

Then, why it can be used to downplay Ganon's Invulnerability? To be fair, that's exactly what people are doing pointing out the original Legend of Zelda. Just like Bowser, there are more games where he shows his invulnerability; there are even characters like Princess Zelda or the king of Hyrule that specifically say so. My point was just an answer to that.

Being defeated by bombs also doesn't mean anything for his durability seeing how bombs vary in strength in fiction.
Not just bombs, there are like 12 games were Bowser gets knocked out by rocks, great falls, Mechakoopas, the Junior Clown Car, lava pits and sometimes bombs.

The difference being that Bowser has been shown multiple times that he can be unaffected by lava whereas Ganon has never shown to be resistant to conventional forms of attack.
What about Dark Beast Ganon from Breath of the Wild? He showed to be Invulnerable to conventional attacks without the triforce of power and there is also A Link to the Past.

And just because Link couldn't defeat Ganon without holy weapons doesn't mean Bowser couldn't defeat him.
Then, why is always a requirement to defeat Ganon if any weapon can harm him?

The Triforce being omnipotent is obvious hyperbole.
How is that an obvious hyperbole if it have the power to grant any wish, break into pieces and restore itself and create another triforce with the same power?

Oh thats why you were saying it, my mistake I completely misinterpreted that. Anyway, what makes Ganon invulnerable? He can be hurt by conventional attacks and is also physically weaker than Bowser. And resistance to existence erasure also has no impact on Ganons durability, it just means he can resist existence erasing attacks.
Sometimes his Invulnerability comes from the triforce of power; but in Breath of the Wild is the Malice that surrounds him.

Are you referring to when it was used to destroy Demise? Because last I checked nothing implied it erased him existence. He was just killed.
Well, maybe I misunderstood Fi's quote here. However, you said "Personally I only go by what wishes they've been said and shown to grant." and the Triforce can do the same with Bowser since it can also grant abstract wishes like giving a future in Wind Waker; he could just wish for that.

That was Demise not Ganon. And even then Demise was stuck in that seal for hundreds for years before he finally becan breaking out of it during Skyward Sword.
Ganon is the reincarnation of Demise and that's why I said it depends on the seal; he took hundreds of years to break out from Goddess Hylia's seal without the triforce, but it not took him that long to break out from Link's seals.

Bowsers sealing is good enough that it takes the combined power of 71 power stars to free Peach from her seal.
I'm not familiar with the power stars, but quantity does not mean quality. Without the trifroce, the Master Sword and Princess Zelda could seal Demise/Ganon for hundred years, but in Ocarina of Time, It took 7 sages (including Zelda) to seal an already weakened Ganon after his match against Link using the Master Sword and it happened again in Four Swords Adventure.

Seeing how Bowsers got universal range I doubt he's gonna miss Ganon.
How is he universal range?

 

[Anonimoe7875]

The Triforce isn't omnipotent, "capable of granting any wish" is clearly a hyperbole.

And how can a omnipotent create another omnipotent?

Look at this blog for further clarification.

 

[Zogriel]

The Triforce isn't omnipotent, "capable of granting any wish" is clearly a hyperbole.

I have no problem if this philosophy is part of the rules, but if not, I consider that the philosophy of the game should be respected first of all just like atheistic philosophies doesn't apply to universes where gods do exist. Moreover, there is nothing to indicate that the triforce is not omnipotent within the philosophy of the game.

And how can a omnipotent create another omnipotent? Look at this blog for further clarification.
By its definition, it should be possible and was possible in A Link Between Worlds. Following the blog that you shared, it says the following:


Could an omnipotent being create another omnipotent being?


Short answer: Yes, and no.

In other words, he can create a being with the same properties as he, but from the point that this being has the same properties as it, that being would be nothing more than himself.

 

[Huesito88]

That would be a nlf to assume they can grant any wish

 

[Dust_Collector]

I have no problem if this philosophy is part of the rules, but if not, I consider that the philosophy of the game should be respected first of all just like atheistic philosophies doesn't apply to universes where gods do exist. Moreover, there is nothing to indicate that the triforce is not omnipotent within the philosophy of the game.

It doesn't matter if the philosophy of the game or whatever indicates it's omnipotent, the Triforce has shown nothing that makes it even close to omnipotent. It can considered omnipotent in the Zelda universe because it's far more powerful than almost everyone in the series by a ridiculous degree, in the same way a galaxy buster can be considered omnipotent compared to a planet buster.

 

[FDrybob]

@Zogriel Omnipotence is impossible to measure. Omnipotence isn't just a single factor like speed, but a combination of many factors (energy, abilities, etc.) that cannot be measured to an infinite degree. If you ask someone to demonstrate their omnipotence, there's nothing they could do that can't be explained away.

 

[Zogriel]

@Huesito88, Dust Collector and FDrybob

Ok, regardless of whether it is omnipotent or not, it is capable of eradicating and guaranteeing a future. My vote remains for Ganondorf because:

Bowser:
•Far greater durability and strength

•Infinite Resurrection

•Spatial Manipulation (Can make it so none of Ganons attacks or magic can reach him)


•Superior Range


•Transmutation


•Can hit Ganon despite intangibility

1.- Energy, Blood, Mind Control, Curse, Possesio, Soul Manipulation and Status Effect Inducement can bypass Bowser's Durability.

2.- Ganon has Sealing + Conceptual Manipulation'.' (I don't remember if Blood Moon can also revivie Ganon with Weather Manipulation)

3.- Ganon has Teleportation.


4.- Ganon has Night- Invulnerability, Barriers, Healing via triforce of Wisdom + Blood Moon via Weather and can became Intangible.


5.- Ganon has Transformation, Shapeshifting and Resistance to Curse. I don't know why this is not in Ganon's abilities, but IIRC he has resistance to Transmutation because Magic Powder and Quake Medallion are no effective.


6.- No, he can't. Link also has items that can hit intangible beings but are useless against Ganon. Also, Ganondorf can Dead man's volley any element Bowser can throw at him.

As reinforcement:


Telepathy + Mind Control/Morality + Ilusion Creation Bowser In character will be outsmarted living a whole life married with a false Peach, induce suicide or fighting a false Ganondorf for eternity. Also, the Triforce can eradicate Bowser (Skyward Sword), grant Ganon a future (Wind Waker), repel Bowser's Invulnerability (Breath of the Wild) or undo Bowser's magic (A Link to the Past).

 

[Dust_Collector]

Energy, Blood, Mind Control, Curse, Possesion, Soul Manipulation and Status Effect Inducement can bypass Bowser's Durability.

Ganons energy manipulation doesn't bypass durability. I didn't mention his blood manipulation because Ganon hasn't done anything impressive with it, and as far as I remember Ganons only useful curses are his death curses, which Bowser resists. I already brought up how Ganons soul manipulation isn't particularly impressive, not enough to the point of letting him put down Bowser, and the only time I recall Ganon possessing someone was when he entered a effectively dead Zelda who didn't have her soul. Mind Control (and arguably possession) are the only 2 of what you listed that would actually be useful, so long as Ganon doesn't get turned to stone first.

Ganon has Sealing + Conceptual Manipulation'.' (I don't remember if Blood Moon can also revivie Ganon with Weather Manipulation)

That Conceptual Manipulation is as said on the profile, low level, and has never been used before so we have no idea if the Triforces concept manipulation is even good enough to be useful.

Ganon has Teleportation.

But he doesn't have the range to get though Bowsers infinite space technique.

Ganon has Night- Invulnerability, Barriers, Healing via triforce of Wisdom + Blood Moon viaWeather and can became Intangible.

Please stop using invulnerability as an argument when Bowser is over 10 times stronger than Ganon. Barriers also won't help unless Ganon can create barriers dozenz of times more durable than himself. Ganon having Healing via the ToW won't help if his body is completely mangled by a single punch from Bowser. The Blood Moon is never said to heal him only boost his power, and he can't even summon a blood moon anytime he wants anyway. I've already shown that Bowser can hit intangible beings so intangibility is a moot point. </div>

.
Ganon has Transformation, Shapeshifting and Resistance to Curse. I don't know why this is not in Ganon's abilities, but IIRC he has resistance to Transmutation because Magic Powder and Quake Medallion are no effective.

I could've sworn transformation and shapeshifting were on his profile, regardless, those don't really help much. Ganon can turn into a bat but I don't see how that helps him. Magic Powder and Quake Medallion not affecting him in ALTTP is game mechanics. Bosses in video games generally aren't affected by stuff purely so the player can't cheese the fight (I think FF1 bosses were not given resistances for the same reasons). If there was an actual in game/story reason for the resistance than It'd be legit.

No, he can't. Link also has items that can hit intangible beings but are useless against Ganon. Also, Ganondorf can Dead man's volley any element Bowser can throw at him.

The only Link that fought an intangible Ganon was the ALTTP Link, and he didn't have items that hit intangible beings in that game. And you can't say Ganon can Dead Man's Volley whatever Bowsers throws at him, Ganon's only ever reflected his own energy blasts.

Telepathy + Mind Control/Morality + Ilusion Creation Bowser In character will be outsmartedliving a whole life married with a false Peach, induce suicide or fighting a false Ganondorf for eternity. Also, the Triforce can eradicate Bowser (Skyward Sword), grant Ganon a future (Wind Waker), repel Bowser's Invulnerability (Breath of the Wild) or undo Bowser's magic (A Link to the Past).

Telepathy only lets ganon talk via his mind. Morality Manipulation won't help since Bowsers already evil. His Illusion Creation while impressive I have doubts he's that good enough with it to create a lifelong illusion, although creating fake copies of himself will help him in combat. Making Bowser commit suicide won't work because of his resurrection. Eradicating Bowser also won't work since again, he has infinite resurrection. When did the Triforce ever show to grant someone a future? In Wind Waker the King of Hyrule wished for Hyrule to remain sealed under the sea. If you're referring to his speech about wanting to give Link and Tetra a future, that's the equivalent of a parent saying they want a future for their children, nothing indicates the Triforce altered time to give Link and Tetra a future. Repelling Bowsers invulnerability still won't make up for the massive gap in strength between them, and Bowser has resistance to power nullification so undoing his magic won't be easy, and even if that works Bowser can just turn Ganon into an inanimate statue to prevent him from undoing his magic.

 

[Monikaforever]

bowser by reasons above

 

[Zogriel]

Ganons energy manipulation doesn't bypass durability. I didn't mention his blood manipulation because Ganon hasn't done anything impressive with it, and as far as I remember Ganons only useful curses are his death curses, which Bowser resists. I already brought up how Ganons soul manipulation isn't particularly impressive, not enough to the point of letting him put down Bowser, and the only time I recall Ganon possessing someone was when he entered a effectively dead Zelda who didn't have her soul.
Would you mind explaining at least why Energy attacks and Soul Manipulation from a High 4-C would not affect another High 4-C without resistance to it? Bowser has been knocked out by Mechakoopas, the Junior Clown Car, bombs and pieces of rock; while Agahnim is immune to physical damage of the Master Sword -which happens to be its weakness- and can only be damaged by such energy manipulation that you imply is useless; so, I'm pretty sure his Energy blasts bypass Bowser's Durability who again, doesn't have resistance to it. Ganon's Curse turned everyone in Hyrule into spirits and Ganon possessed all the Guardians in Breath of the Wild.

That Conceptual Manipulation is as said on the profile, low level, and has never been used before so we have no idea if the Triforces concept manipulation is even good enough to be useful.
Still, he has Sealing and there are many games where Bowser does not make use of this infinite resurrection.

But he doesn't have the range to get though Bowsers infinite space technique.
Yes, he has Teleportation. He moves instantaneously from one location to another without physically occupying the space in between. It's also a form of spatial manipulation.

Please stop using invulnerability as an argument when Bowser is over 10 times stronger than Ganon. Barriers also won't help unless Ganon can create barriers dozenz of times more durable than himself. Ganon having Healing via the ToW won't help if his body is completely mangled by a single punch from Bowser.
No, you please stop the Argument from belief. How do you want me to stop using that argument if you keep saying that he can single punch Ganon with no proof? His fire barriers and tiles of lava are effective against the fire resistance Goron Tunic.

Bowser has a bad case of Doctor Doom Syndrome, in the sense that he almost always loses no matter how powerful he gets or what special plot maguffin power-up he obtains. He's also easily tricked and most of his losses are due to his overconfidence and lack of foresight when designing a battle arena. Honestly, if Bowser is not Blood-lusted, no matter how strong and "indestructible" he becomes, the Mario brothers are always capable of inflicting physical damage on him while in the case of Ganon does not happen like that. Agahnim is immune to physical damage; Dark Beast Ganon is immune to Physical Damage and Ganon is immune to conventional weapons.

The only Link that fought an intangible Ganon was the ALTTP Link, and he didn't have items that hit intangible beings in that game. And you can't say Ganon can Dead Man's Volley whatever Bowsers throws at him, Ganon's only ever reflected his own energy blasts.
You forget that both the Master Sword and the arrows can kill intangible beings like Hyus and Poes, and yet they are ineffective when Ganon becomes intangible.

Telepathy only lets ganon talk via his mind.
Not exactly, both Ganondorf and Zelda have used Telepathy to read the minds of people without being present. In Ganondorf's case, he used telepathy to learn that Princess Zelda was Sheik's true identity even without being present.

Morality Manipulation won't help since Bowsers already evil.
Morality Manipulation is the power to manipulate one's own morality, not necessarily to make them evil, but to make them unwilling to continue fighting.

His Illusion Creation while impressive I have doubts he's that good enough with it to create a lifelong illusion, although creating fake copies of himself will help him in combat.
He doesn't need to be too good at it, remember that Bowser is in character, the same Bowser who talked to a poster of Princess Peach thinking it was the real one. Honestly, the illusion should only be "credible" enough to count as BFR.

Making Bowser commit suicide won't work because of his resurrection. Eradicating Bowser also won't work since again, he has infinite resurrection.
Would you mind explaining how Browser has infinite resurrection? As far as I know, it takes a ritual to bring it back and the Paper Mario infinite lives are just game mechanics.

When did the Triforce ever show to grant someone a future? In Wind Waker the King of Hyrule wished for Hyrule to remain sealed under the sea. If you're referring to his speech about wanting to give Link and Tetra a future, that's the equivalent of a parent saying they want a future for their children, nothing indicates the Triforce altered time to give Link and Tetra a future.
In fact, there is much that indicates it. First, there is the fact that Ganondorf says the following after the King of Hyrule wish for a future for Link and Zelda:

"Very well, then... Allow me to show you... Your future... Yes.. Allow me to show you.. Just what hope you have... See how much your precious Triforce is worth!"

Especially in the last line, Ganondorf implies that Link and Zelda have no hope of surviving, therefore, they have no future, but if they manage to survive, the triforce would prove its worth by giving them a future. While Link and Zelda are the only ones to survive because they are wrapped in a mysterious bubble and the last thing the King of Hyrule says is this:

"I have scattered the seeds of the future..."

I think it is very clear that the triforce had some intervention.

Repelling Bowsers invulnerability still won't make up for the massive gap in strength between them, and Bowser has resistance to power nullification so undoing his magic won't be easy, and even if that works Bowser can just turn Ganon into an inanimate statue to prevent him from undoing his magic.
There's not such a massive gap. The Mage's Cap, also known as the Minish Cap, undo all the damage done by Vaati (another High 4-C) but compare to the Triforce it is much more weaker, so yes, it can undo Bowser's Invulnerability or Magic. Also, Ganon's intelligence was able to manipulate Vaati who has Petrification in his abilities, plus, The triforce piece of courage and wisdom protected Link and Zelda from becoming spirits.

 

[Dust_Collector]

Would you mind explaining at least why Energy attacks and Soul Manipulation from a High 4-Cwould not affect another High 4-C without resistance to it? Bowser has been knocked out byMechakoopas, the Junior Clown Car, bombs and pieces of rock; while Agahnim is immune to physical damage of the Master Sword -which happens to be its weakness- and can only be damaged by such energy manipulation that you imply is useless; so, I'm pretty sure his Energy blasts bypass Bowser's Durability who again, doesn't have resistance to it. Ganon's Curse turned everyone in Hyrule into spirits and Ganon possessed all the Guardians in Breath of the Wild.

I never said that energy manipulation and soul manipulation wouldn't affect him, you said that his energy manipulation would ignore his durability, which it doesn't. Ganon can harm people with his energy blasts but he doesn't ignore durability with them. And I simply said Ganon hasn't shown anything overly impressive with his soul manipulation for it to be a major factor in this fight. Yes he took control of the Guardians but he had to make contact with his Malice first.

I believe it was Zant who turned everyone into Hyrule into spirits not Ganon (Not that it matters since IIRC Zants soul manipulation came from Ganon), but that was the extent of it. He turned them into spirits and that was it, he didn't destroy or absorb the spirits. I think some if the spirits were morphed into twilight beasts, but Bowser resists transmutation.

Yes, he has Teleportation. He moves instantaneously from one location to another without physically occupying the space in between. It's also a form of spatial manipulation.

Oh you said teleportation, I somehow misread it as telepathic, my bad. Still, Bowsers infinite space technique effectively creates infinite space between him and the opponent (Well, from the opponents perspective, from Bowsers perspective it's just normal space), so I'm not sure if Ganon can teleport across all of that seeing how his range is stellar, and he only teleports across the length of a room in the battles he uses it. I could be wrong though. And if Ganon does start teleporting, Bowser can start doing the same.

No, you please stop the Argument from belief. How do you want me to stop using that argument if you keep saying that he can single punch Ganon with no proof? His fire barriersand tiles of lava are effective against the fire resistance Goron Tunic.

No proof? It's on the profiles. Bowser scales to a much higher end of High 4-C than Ganon. Comparing Ganon to Bowser is like comparing a child to Mike Tyson.

Bowser has a bad case of Doctor Doom Syndrome, in the sense that he almost always loses no matter how powerful he gets or what special plot maguffin power-up he obtains. He's also easily tricked and most of his losses are due to his overconfidence and lack of foresight when designing a battle arena.

Same can be said about Ganon. In ALTTP he had the entire Triforce, still ended killed at the hands of a Link who had nothing but the Master Sword. Or how in BOTW he transforms into his true and original form and is more powerful than ever, only to lose yet again.

Also in ALTTP he designed the final battle arena poorly just like Bowser does. At the halfway point he turns intangible which apparently only works in darkness, but he added torches to the arena so that when Link lights them up he becomes tangible again.

Agahnim is immune to physical damage; Dark Beast Ganon is immune to Physical Damage and Ganon is immune to conventional weapons.




You forget that both the Master Sword and the arrows can kill intangible beings like Hyus and Poes, and yet they are ineffective when Ganon becomes intangible

Poes and Hyus can also be hurt by simply throwing rocks at them in ALTTP iirc.

Not exactly, both Ganondorf and Zelda have used Telepathy to read the minds of peoplewithout being present. In Ganondorf's case, he used telepathy to learn that Princess Zelda was Sheik's true identity even without being present.

Zelda didn't even read Links mind in BOTW, she just telepathically spoke to him. Same thing with Sheiks reveal, she turned back into Zelda, said "Hey Link it's me, Princess Zelda", and then Ganon was like "Oh shit it's Zelda, time to kidnap her". It had nothing to do with him reading minds. He looked into Zeldas dreams in Wind Waker, but that's about it.

He doesn't need to be too good at it, remember that Bowser is in character, the same Bowserwho talked to a poster of Princess Peach thinking it was the real one. Honestly, the illusion should only be "credible" enough to count as BFR.

In character Bowser is a hard thing to pin down tbh, since his intelligence varies heavily. Can Ganon even create tangible illusions? Cause if Bowser goes to touch the Peach illusion and it turns out to not be tangible he's gonna know it ain't real.

Would you mind explaining how Browser has infinite resurrection? As far as I know, it takes aritual to bring it back and the Paper Mario infinite lives are just game mechanics

The Thousand Year Door goes out of its way to explicitly show a screen showing he has infinite lives, as opposed to having him die and respawn instantly.

In fact, there is much that indicates it. First, there is the fact that Ganondorf says the following after the King of Hyrule wish for a future for Link and Zelda:

"Very well, then... Allow me to show you... Your future... Yes.. Allow me to show you.. Just what hope you have... See how much your precious Triforce is worth!"

Especially in the last line, Ganondorf implies that Link and Zelda have no hope of surviving, therefore, they have no future, but if they manage to survive, the triforce would prove its worth by giving them a future. While Link and Zelda are the only ones to survive because they are wrapped in a mysterious bubble and the last thing the King of Hyrule says is this:

"I have scattered the seeds of the future..."

I think it is very clear that the triforce had some intervention.

Ganons line is just him being pissed off he lost the Triforce and mocking the Kings speech.

"I have scattered the seeds of the future" is just him referring to how Link and Tetra will create a new future by creating a new Hyrule.

<"div class="quote"> There's not such a massive gap. The Mage's Cap, also known as the Minish Cap, undo all the damage done by Vaati (another High 4-C) but compare to the Triforce it is much more weaker, so yes, it can undo Bowser's Invulnerability or Magic. Also, Ganon's intelligence was able to manipulate Vaati who has Petrification in his abilities, plus, The triforce piece of courage and wisdom protected Link and Zelda from becoming spirits. </div> There is a massive gap, Bowser is high end large star level (9.88 foe), whereas Ganon doesn't have anything that puts him even at 1 foe. The Mages Cap only undid damage from a 5-C character, Vaati is only High 4-C in the anniversary version of Four Swords, in Minish Cap he was 5-C. If Bowser turns Ganon into an inanimate statue he's not gonna be able to use the Triforce to undo anything. I don't see what Ganon manipulating Vaati has to do with this, Ganon's only manipulated people from behind the scenes but never while in the middle of combat. I don't get what point you're trying to make with the Triforce protecting Link and Zelda from soul manipulation considering that's not even an ability Bowser has.

 

[Zogriel]

I never said that energy manipulation and soul manipulation wouldn't affect him, you said that his energy manipulation would ignore his durability, which it doesn't. Ganon can harm people with his energy blasts but he doesn't ignore durability with them.
Ok, I thought you were saying that Ganon was unable to harm Bowser because his Durability. Sorry about that.

Yes he took control of the Guardians but he had to make contact with his Malice first.
That is true, but in a battle it would be almost impossible for both to not make contact with the other.

He turned them into spirits and that was it, he didn't destroy or absorb the spirits. I think some if the spirits were morphed into twilight beasts, but Bowser resists transmutation.
Yes, but what could they do? Remember that Ganondorf did not want to kill them, he wanted to be the ruler of Hyrule and if he killed them all, there would be nothing to rule. At first it may seem like a worthless curse, but if we remember Spirit Tracks, Zelda was unable to use her magic because she was a spirit. If Ganondorf succeed in turning Bowser into a spirit, he would be unable to continue the battle and would be considered a victory. My point is that Ganon/dorf does not necessarily need to kill Bowser to be considered a victory, and since Ganondorf's intelligence is much greater than Bowsers', I think he would find a way to incapacitate him.

Oh you said teleportation, I somehow misread it as telepathic, my bad. Still, Bowsers infinite space technique effectively creates infinite space between him and the opponent (Well, from the opponents perspective, from Bowsers perspective it's just normal space), so I'm not sure if Ganon can teleport across all of that seeing how his range is stellar, and he only teleports across the length of a room in the battles he uses it. I could be wrong though. And if Ganon does start teleporting, Bowser can start doing the same.
Oh, no problem; I understand your point. If it was the case and both would start teleporting, at least the thing would not be so unbalanced, don't you think?

No proof? It's on the profiles. Bowser scales to a much higher end of High 4-C than Ganon. Comparing Ganon to Bowser is like comparing a child to Mike Tyson.
I can see that, but I do not consider it a determining factor. I mean, how many times have we seen Batman beating the shit out of Superman even when there is such a great difference of power? Anyone could say that Superman could kill Batman with a single punch, but the real question is: would he? In my opinion, "Brain beats brawn" and following that concept, I think Ganondorf has enough intellect to beat Bowser even though their power and durability are different. I do not say it just because I believe it, but because I've seen him manipulate and deceive characters with a respectable intellect like Princess Zelda while in the case of Bowser it usually tends to be him who is manipulated. In addition, Ganon has Mind Control and you said it would actually be useful; so, someone as manipulative as Ganon, able to Mind Control his opponent, would be enough to give him the victory in my humble opinion.

Same can be said about Ganon. In ALTTP he had the entire Triforce, still ended killed at the hands of a Link who had nothing but the Master Sword. Or how in BOTW he transforms into his true and original form and is more powerful than ever, only to lose yet again. Also in ALTTP he designed the final battle arena poorly just like Bowser does. At the halfway point he turns intangible which apparently only works in darkness, but he added torches to the arena so that when Link lights them up he becomes tangible again.
I do not agree with that. Although it is true that Ganon was defeated by Link even with the triforce in his power, it is necessary to remember that ALTTP is located in the timeline where Ganon already killed one Link and in BOTW he does not own any piece of the triforce in which he confronts Zelda with the full triforce and Link at the same time.


As for the battle arena, do not try to compare the serious mistake of putting an ax to cut the bridge where you stand with torches that in the middle ages was the only source of light they had to light a room.


That's the kind of response people usually use when they run out of arguments; I would appreciate a little respect if you do not agree with my opinion, since I do not try to convince you to share my opinion, I only try to justify my vote.

Zelda didn't even read Links mind in BOTW, she just telepathically spoke to him. Same thing with Sheiks reveal, she turned back into Zelda, said "Hey Link it's me, Princess Zelda", and then Ganon was like "Oh shit it's Zelda, time to kidnap her". It had nothing to do with him reading minds. He looked into Zeldas dreams in Wind Waker, but that's about it.
Honestly, I see it more likely that the telepathic powers of Zelda and Ganondorf function like any telepathic power and serve to communicate mentally (which includes reading the minds of the people with whom they communicate). Link was in a coma for 100 years. For whatever you say, be true, Zelda would have to run very lucky, and I say, too lucky because his only pre-designed telepathic message sent after 100 years, never repeated again during the game; not to mention that it came to Link just the moment he woke up from his coma and the instructions to use the Sheika Slate arrived just as he picked it up.

Can Ganon even create tangible illusions? Cause if Bowser goes to touch the Peach illusion and it turns out to not be tangible he's gonna know it ain't real.
Well, Ganon can create tangible copies of himself and according to Hyrule Historia, Ganondorf created Shadow Link. I do not see why he could not create a tangible copy of Princess Peach if he mixes his shadow powers with illusions.

The Thousand Year Door goes out of its way to explicitly show a screen showing he has infinite lives, as opposed to having him die and respawn instantly.
This sounds more like a game mechanic to me since there's no in game/story reason for that.

Ganons line is just him being pissed off he lost the Triforce and mocking the Kings speech.
"I have scattered the seeds of the future" is just him referring to how Link and Tetra will create a new future by creating a new Hyrule.

I do not think so. What you say does not finish explaining why Link and Zelda are only wrapped in bubbles after the place was flooded. It would make a little more sense if Ganondorf did not challenge the power of the triforce in his last line, but in the only two occasions in which the future of Link and Zelda are compromised, Ganondorf challenges the power of the triforce and loses; while the place is flooded and both are saved by some kind of bubbles.

If Bowser turns Ganon into an inanimate statue he's not gonna be able to use the Triforce to undo anything.
The Triforce does not work that way, it saved Link from becoming a spirit when he did not even know he had it, and also saved Ganondorf from his execution when he thought he would die.

I don't get what point you're trying to make with the Triforce protecting Link and Zelda from soul manipulation considering that's not even an ability Bowser has.
It is never specified if it was due to his Soul Manipulation that turned everyone into spirits, it could have been a curse, transmutation or dark magic.

My point is that Zelda said that Link's piece of the triforce protected him from turning into a spirit, therefore, one piece of the triforce can protect its user from whatever kind of power Zant used to turn everyone intro spirits. So, the full triforce could protect Ganondorf from transmutation. I'm not saying it would, but it could be. I'm not 100% sure what kind of abilities the triforce is able to protect.

I don't see what Ganon manipulating Vaati has to do with this, Ganon's only manipulated people from behind the scenes but never while in the middle of combat.
It has to do with the power of manipulation that he has, in fact. Vaati could also transform anyone into a stone statute and had no lapses of idiocy. However, Ganon was able to trick him and use him for his plans.

You say Bowser would be able to beat Ganon just because Ganon lacks resistance to most of his abilities and because Bowser has some great numbers in his AP/Durability? Well, let me tell you that the Master Sword was created to defeat and repel evil; even so, he managed to create an alter ego that is immune to the physical attacks of that sword. The same thing happened with the Divine Beasts that the Sheikah created in order to aid the chosen ones, what happened? Ganon managed to use the Divine Beasts and the Guardians against them and leave the kingdom of Hyrule in ruins; or What about the Downfall Timeline where Ganondorf killed Link despite being chosen by the Master Sword? You cannot just say that Bowser would win only because he could turn Ganondorf into stone when it is never so easy to defeat him; and less with Mind Control.

 

[Kellex]

Oh my goodness, what is going on in here?

 

[Huesito88]

Bump

 

[Dust_Collector]

"That is true, but in a battle it would be almost impossible for both to not make contact with the other."

The thing is that from we've seen from Breath of the Wild he has to shoot Malice out like a projectile, as shown during the Kings flashback. While it would be easy for Malice to hit Bowser at close range, it's also just as easy for Bowser to turn Ganon into blood splatter with a punch.

"Yes, but what could they do? Remember that Ganondorf did not want to kill them, he wanted to be the ruler of Hyrule and if he killed them all, there would be nothing to rule. At first it may seem like a worthless curse, but if we remember Spirit Tracks, Zelda was unable to use her magic because she was a spirit. If Ganondorf succeed in turning Bowser into a spirit, he would be unable to continue the battle and would be considered a victory. My point is that Ganon/dorf does not necessarily need to kill Bowser to be considered a victory, and since Ganondorf's intelligence is much greater than Bowsers', I think he would find a way to incapacitate him."

I don't think what happened in Spirit Tracks us a good example as that curse was the result of as completely character. In regards to the curse in Twilight Princess it's... kinda weird. It turns those caught within the twilight veil (I think that's what it's called?) Into spirits, but they still interact with the surrounding environment and still have their bodies, so I'm not too sure how exactly it affects people who are caught within it.

"I can see that, but I do not consider it a determining factor. I mean, how many times have we seen Batman beating the shit out of Superman even when there is such a great difference of power? Anyone could say that Superman could kill Batman with a single punch, but the real question is: would he? In my opinion, "Brain beats brawn" and following that concept, I think Ganondorf has enough intellect to beat Bowser even though their power and durability are different. I do not say it just because I believe it, but because I've seen him manipulate and deceive characters with a respectable intellect like Princess Zelda while in the case of Bowser it usually tends to be him who is manipulated. In addition, Ganon has Mind Control and you said it would actually be useful; so, someone as manipulative as Ganon, able to Mind Control his opponent, would be enough to give him the victory in my humble opinion."

Batman and Superman is not the best comparison to make, since Batman needs to use kryptonite to harm him, and I believe Superman also holds back as to not kill Batman. Its very possible for brains to beat brawn, buts it's also very powerful fro brawns to beat brains.

"As for the battle arena, do not try to compare the serious mistake of putting an ax to cut the bridge where you stand with torches that in the middle ages was the only source of light they had to light a room."

The room was designed by Ganon, it has his face on the back wall. I personally don't like using either the torch argument or axe argument since both can be chalked up to game mechanics as I dont think either of them had any story based explanation.

"That's the kind of response people usually use when they run out of arguments; I would appreciate a little respect if you do not agree with my opinion, since I do not try to convince you to share my opinion, I only try to justify my vote."

The whole immunity stuff surrounding Ganon is a common NLF. I was more making fun on the argument itself than you, I apologise if it seems like I was mocking you directly.

"Honestly, I see it more likely that the telepathic powers of Zelda and Ganondorf function like any telepathic power and serve to communicate mentally (which includes reading the minds of the people with whom they communicate). Link was in a coma for 100 years. For whatever you say, be true, Zelda would have to run very lucky, and I say, too lucky because his only pre-designed telepathic message sent after 100 years, never repeated again during the game; not to mention that it came to Link just the moment he woke up from his coma and the instructions to use the Sheika Slate arrived just as he picked it up."

That's still not the same as mind reading, she sensed he was awake then began giving him instructions on what to do. The closest to mind reading I can think I can think of is in The Wind Waker where Ganon looks into Zelda's dreams while she's asleep, but that's not quite the same as reading your opponents mind in the heat of battle.

"Well, Ganon can create tangible copies of himself and according to Hyrule Historia, Ganondorf created Shadow Link. I do not see why he could not create a tangible copy of Princess Peach if he mixes his shadow powers with illusions."

While that's very plausible, we've never seen Ganon combine his shadow magic with his illusions so it's a bit if a stretch to say he can combine them. Plus something I just thought off, but how would Ganon know who Peach is? Neither Bowser nor Ganon have prior knowledge of each other so Ganon wouldn't know to make illusions of Peach specifically.

"This sounds more like a game mechanic to me since there's no in game/story reason for that."

If Bowser simply died and respawned I'd agree, but the game goes out if it's way to show that Bowser has infinite lives whenever he dies.

"I do not think so. What you say does not finish explaining why Link and Zelda are only wrapped in bubbles after the place was flooded. It would make a little more sense if Ganondorf did not challenge the power of the triforce in his last line, but in the only two occasions in which the future of Link and Zelda are compromised, Ganondorf challenges the power of the triforce and loses; while the place is flooded and both are saved by some kind of bubbles."

The bubbles don't really mean much since there's no explanation for them. There's not enough evidence besides a vague poetic speech the King of Hyrule makes to indicate that the Triforce can manipulate the future.

"The Triforce does not work that way, it saved Link from becoming a spirit when he did not even know he had it, and also saved Ganondorf from his execution when he thought he would die."

That doesn't automatically means it prevents anything else. The Triforce hasn't directly shown to save its host from stuff like transmutation. We can only go by what it's shown.

"It is never specified if it was due to his Soul Manipulation that turned everyone into spirits, it could have been a curse, transmutation or dark magic."

The fact it turned people into spirits makes it soul manipulation whether it was specified or not.

"My point is that Zelda said that Link's piece of the triforce protected him from turning into a spirit, therefore, one piece of the triforce can protect its user from whatever kind of power Zant used to turn everyone intro spirits. So, the full triforce could protect Ganondorf from transmutation. I'm not saying it would, but it could be. I'm not 100% sure what kind of abilities the triforce is able to protect."

It could protect Ganon from transmutation, but since the Triforce hasn't shown to do that we can't assume it will protect him.

"It has to do with the power of manipulation that he has, in fact. Vaati could also transform anyone into a stone statute and had no lapses of idiocy. However, Ganon was able to trick him and use him for his plans."

Lol tbh I don't quite know what point I was originally trying to make. I was probably tired or something. Anyway, iirc Ganon set Vaati free and then just waited in hiding, not exactly the same as tricking someone in the middle of combat (Well, tricking via intelligence anyway, he can trick Bowser via fake copies of himself)

Anyway Bowser stomps since Ganon is country level at best according to the "God Tier" debaters on Google+

 

[Zogriel]

The thing is that from we've seen from Breath of the Wild he has to shoot Malice out like a projectile, as shown during the Kings flashback. While it would be easy for Malice to hit Bowser at close range, it's also just as easy for Bowser to turn Ganon into blood splatter with a punch.

But what stops Ganondorf from doing something like Blind Or Fawful just like he actually did to Bowser right here?

I don't think what happened in Spirit Tracks us a good example as that curse was the result of as completely character. In regards to the curse in Twilight Princess it's... kinda weird. It turns those caught within the twilight veil (I think that's what it's called?) Into spirits, but they still interact with the surrounding environment and still have their bodies, so I'm not too sure how exactly it affects people who are caught within it.
IIRC you said that "Ganon's soul manipulation wasn't particularly impressive", but I don't see the difference between this and Bowser using transmutation to turn all the inhabitants of Mushroom Kingdom into blocks. However, my point with all of this was that he could use Soul Manipulation to incapacitate Bowser; which he apparently can because I don't remember any spirit interacting with humans in Twilight Princess or Spirit Tracks.

Batman and Superman is not the best comparison to make, since Batman needs to use kryptonite to harm him, and I believe Superman also holds back as to not kill Batman. Its very possible for brains to beat brawn, buts it's also very powerful fro brawns to beat brains.
This is a bit off-topic since it was just an example but there are storylines where Superman doesn't hold back because he is mind controlled. Anyway, I don't think this will be the case in which brawns beat brains. Especially when Bowser (who can be easily tricked) is fighting a guy that specializes in manipulate and deceive other people.

The room was designed by Ganon, it has his face on the back wall. I personally don't like using either the torch argument or axe argument since both can be chalked up to game mechanics as I dont think either of them had any story based explanation.
Me neither, my original point was that Bowser almost always loses no matter how powerful he gets or what special plot maguffin power-up he obtains. You brought the battle arena thing.

The whole immunity stuff surrounding Ganon is a common NLF. I was more making fun on the argument itself than you, I apologise if it seems like I was mocking you directly.
Following the Verse equalizatio from the Standard Battle Assumptions, Ganon's Night-Invulnerability would make him immune to almost all kind of damage since both are High 4-C.

While that's very plausible, we've never seen Ganon combine his shadow magic with his illusions so it's a bit if a stretch to say he can combine them.
Phantom Ganon has shown to share similar abilities with the original Ganon; in fact, Phantom Ganon is created by Ganon, so it's not stretch.

Plus something I just thought off, but how would Ganon know who Peach is? Neither Bowser nor Ganon have prior knowledge of each other so Ganon wouldn't know to make illusions of Peach specifically.
It has to do with this:

The closest to mind reading I can think I can think of is in The Wind Waker where Ganon looks into Zelda's dreams while she's asleep, but that's not quite the same as reading your opponents mind in the heat of battle.
Ok, it doesn't matter; it's not like Bowser is most reserved man in the world either or the only way he can be tricked. Ganon has used different types of deceit.

Just for the record, he pledged false allegiance to the King of Hyrule to gain his trust in Ocarina of Time and did it again in A Link to the Past, he deceive young Zelda and young Link to obtain the triforce in OOT and manipulated Zant in Twilight Princess. He didn't knew any of those characters before either and that didn't stop him to manipulate them.

If Bowser simply died and respawned I'd agree, but the game goes out if it's way to show that Bowser has infinite lives whenever he dies.
So? There are other games were he can actually die and is unable to resurrect himself.

The bubbles don't really mean much since there's no explanation for them. There's not enough evidence besides a vague poetic speech the King of Hyrule makes to indicate that the Triforce can manipulate the future.
That's an Argument from incredulity.

The King Daphnes clearly made two wishes to the triforce and the triforce granted those wishes because it reacted and leave the scene before the final battle.







What happen next? The two wishes are granted:







Is more like Fate Manipulation.

That doesn't automatically means it prevents anything else. The Triforce hasn't directly shown to save its host from stuff like transmutation. We can only go by what it's shown. The fact it turned people into spirits makes it soul manipulation whether it was specified or not. It could protect Ganon from transmutation, but since the Triforce hasn't shown to do that we can't assume it will protect him.
1) You said that If Bowser turns Ganon into an inanimate statue he's not gonna be able to use the Triforce to undo anything; which I first prove the triforce don't work like that.

2) Mario or any other character that has fought Bowser doesn't have any resistance to transmutation either and defeated him anyway. What would make it different with Ganondorf? Since both combatants are In Character, I don't see why he would start spamming a spell he rarely uses or give him the victory.

3) It is more likely that Ganon mind control him before Bowser can use any transmutation spell. Like I said, he rarely uses it in battles against character that also lack resistance to it; so what stops Ganon from doing this? With the exception that he will be using mind control instead of a beam.

 

[Dust_Collector]

But what stops Ganondorf from doing something like Blind Or Fawful just like he actually did to Bowser right here?

Can you give a time frame for the 2nd video for what you're talking about, because I'm not watching though a 37 minute video of different Fawful moments.

This is a bit off-topic since it was just an example but there are storylines where Superman doesn't hold back because he is mind controlled. Anyway, I don't think this will be the case in which brawns beat brains. Especially when Bowser (who can be easily tricked) is fighting a guy that specializes in manipulate and deceive other people.

Again, Ganon's shown to manipulate and deceive from behind the scenes. Whenever he's in a fight he relies on his fighting skill and magic as opposed to deceit.

Me neither, my original point was that Bowser almost always loses no matter how powerful he gets or what special plot maguffin power-up he obtains. You brought the battle arena thing.

No you brought brought up the battle arena thing, you said "His losses are due to his overconfidence and lack of foresight when designing a battle arena". All I did was give an example of Ganon doing the same thing.

Following the Verse equalization from the Standard Battle Assumptions, Ganon's Nigh-Invulnerability would make him immune to almost all kind of damage since both are High 4-C.

Unless Ganon has shown to shrug off attacks from people over 10 times stronger than himself it's not a valid point.

Phantom Ganon has shown to share similar abilities with the original Ganon; in fact, Phantom Ganon is created by Ganon, so it's not stretch.

I don't see how this means he can mix illusions with his shadow magic. Not that it matters a whole bunch.

Ok, it doesn't matter; it's not like Bowser is most reserved man in the world either or the only way he can be tricked. Ganon has used different types of deceit.

Just for the record, he pledged false allegiance to the King of Hyrule to gain his trust in Ocarina of Time and did it again in A Link to the Past, he deceive young Zelda and young Link to obtain the triforce in OOT and manipulated Zant in Twilight Princess. He didn't knew any of those characters before either and that didn't stop him to manipulate them.

Being manipulative behind the scenes doesn't mean a whole lot in the heat of battle. He manipulated all those people (With the exception of Link and Zelda) by gaining their trust first, not exactly easy to do when fighting someone. And he didn't even fully manipulate Link and Zelda in OOT anyway, he tried to get the Triforce himself at first and when Link began to gather the sacred stones he caught onto what was going on and then just waited for Link to gather the stones.

So? There are other games where he can actually die and is unable to resurrect himself.

The only game I think of where he needed outside assistance to revive was NSMB.

The King Daphnes clearly made two wishes to the triforce and the triforce granted those wishes because it reacted and leave the scene before the final battle.

What happen next? The two wishes are granted:

Is more like Fate Manipulation.

You're taking everything he says too literally. His wish was just to wash Hyrule away, nothing else. The part where Link and Zelda are taken back to the surface was clearly not a wish otherwise they would have been taken back up before the fight with Ganondorf. The kings speech is mostly poetic and shouldn't be taken word for word as literal.

"1) You said that If Bowser turns Ganon into an inanimate statue he's not gonna be able to use the Triforce to undo anything; which I first prove the triforce don't work like that.'

Why would the Triforce randomly reverse the effects of transmutation?

2) Mario or any other character that has fought Bowser doesn't have any resistance to transmutation either and defeated him anyway. What would make it different with Ganondorf? Since both combatants are In Character, I don't see why he would start spamming a spell he rarely uses or give him the victory.

There's also plenty of Links who fought and defeated Ganon without resistance to mind control, what would make it different with Bowser? There's also plenty of spells that Ganon rarely uses (His mind control for example was only ever used once).

3) It is more likely that Ganon mind control him before Bowser can use any transmutation spell. Like I said, he rarely uses it in battles against character that also lack resistance to it; so what stops Ganon from doing this? With the exception that he will be using mind control instead of a beam.

Ganon also rarely uses his best magic against other characters who lack resistance to it.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Only Links with mind resistance are ALTTP and MM.

 

[Dust_Collector]

You know what? I change my vote...Malo wins.

But on a serious note I've quickly counted up all the votes so far:

Bowser: 8 (Me, Cal, Northern Wind, FDry, Dani, Theglassman, Kell, Monika)

Ganon: 4 (Eficiente, DarkDragon, Kiryu, Zogriel)

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Bowser for reasons above

 

[Zogriel]

You know what? I change my vote...Malo wins.
But on a serious note I've quickly counted up all the votes so far:

Bowser: 8 (Me, Cal, Northern Wind, FDry, Dani, Theglassman, Kell, Monika)

Ganon: 4 (Eficiente, DarkDragon, Kiryu, Zogriel)

Well then, I guess it's pointless to keep delaying this.