Gabriel Showdown (TMC Revision)

[Jepilstiltskin]

Introduction​

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“And no wonder, for Satan himself disguises as an angel of light”
- 2 Corinthians 11:14

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Howdy ladies and gentleman, today I would like to do an abilities addition to the most loved analogue horror character; Gabriel (or whatever you wanna call this guy). Without further ado, let's dive into the section.

Spoiler: Feats

• Passive Abilities (Enhanced Darkness Manipulation, Enhanced Reality Warping & Selective Time-Stop): His presence alone can caused the world to fall into complete darkness, which is said by the sand that he can make "night to fall in an instant and draining all color from the world" by just appearing. By doing so will make the world turns grey and distort the world unlike it's former state. A label of "ALL GREY. ALL DARK. ALL GONE" will be shown everytime an episode is Gabriel related. In "Mystifying Oracle - In Limbo", an entity which implied to be Alternates can also caused darkness in the environment, it's so dark that not even the light of the city and stars can be seen outside. A darkness that is isolating in nature, even Joe's questioning his where being inside it. Signals can't enter once the surrounding are in darkness territory, even if it's influence is not around it can still trap them, showing that only one voice-message can be heard while the rest is only giving error sound. Not even the light of the "Moon" can illuminate through the darkness, saying that both the "Sun" and the "Moon" were worried of Joe's fate inside them indicating they can't do anything about it, even though the "Sun" and the "Moon" gives meaning to Light and Darkness. Gabriel Darkness should be upscaled through the entity. Gabriel is seen to instantaneously releasing darkness and "stopping time" when he talks to Noah. It's draining and isolated nature could be the reason why "time" in the environment seems to be slowing down and eventually stop once darkness arise.
• Possibly Alternate Future Display: The causes of M.A.D can make an individual see their horrible death.
• Corruption (Type 2): His teleportation can cause corruption.
• Battle-Field Removal, Statistic Inducement & Spatial Manipulation: Gabriel can trap someone into another endless desert and tied them with chains that would weight heavier with each step, shown twice.
• Soul Manipulation & Non-Physical Interaction: Alternates presence can affect the soul and also can separate Adam's soul from his body.
• Body Control & Size Manipulation (Large Size; Type 0): Alternates including Gabriel can stretch their body, can extend his arm or head and capable of making himself bigger.

Spoiler: Counter-Argument

• Do not make an argument that some of the cartoon feats to be "not real" just because they seem inconsistent, as Alex Kister already said the cartoony episode were meant to re-tell us (the audience) of the Mandela Catalogue backstory or past event.
• Do not make an argument of Mystifing Oracle feats can't be used on Gabriel because there is not direct explanation of the entity being Alternates, as it is impossible, seeing both series are in the same universe and that there's no threat other than Alternates or Gabriel itself.
• Do not make an argument of Mystifing Oracle Darkness to be some sort of BFR Mechanism, as some of the aspects like signals are present while the darkness is not in full environment.

Votes​

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Agree:
Neutral:
Disagree:

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

Bump

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

This is all very abstract to watch, so I'll wait until someone knowledgeable comments first.

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

This is all very abstract to watch, so I'll wait until someone knowledgeable comments first.

Can you tag some of knowledgeable member or admin here, it would be helping

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

I meant knowledgable on the verse.

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

I meant knowledgable on the verse.

There's none, am I not knowledgeable enough? I help the previous CRT in additioning some of the abilities and scan, you was there too.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

I don't like evaluating things with only one knowledgeable person present.

 

[Greatsage13th]

Hmm.

 

[Emerald]

I'mma comment later

 

[Greatsage13th]

I don't like evaluating things with only one knowledgeable person present.

Why?

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Why?

Because there's no way to verify what they say if you don't know the verse, and even with scans or videos if you don't understand the context, things can get skewed. That's especially true when it comes to a verse like this that seems pretty mindfuckery in terms of imagery and what's going on.

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

Bump

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

Bump

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

Bump

 

[Mand21]

I generally agree with these changes, but am not a mod. Funny how Gabriel has a decent amount of hax while being fodder stat-wise

 

[VIZION99]

I agree with everything here.

 

[FinePoint]

Passive Abilities (Enhanced Darkness Manipulation, Enhanced Reality Warping & Selective Time-Stop):

The bringing darkness stuff seems pretty consistent, although I'm not sure why you'd label it as "enhanced reality warping".

Possibly Alternate Future Display: The causes of M.A.D can make an individual see their horrible death.

I'm not sure how the scan shows this.

Corruption (Type 2): His teleportation can cause corruption.

I'm not sure how the scan shows this.

Battle-Field Removal, Statistic Inducement & Spatial Manipulation: Gabriel can trap someone into another endless desert and tied them with chains that would weight heavier with each step, shown twice.

Rather than "Statistic Inducement & Spatial Manipulation" - just "Density Manipulation" I believe is more fitting.

Soul Manipulation & Non-Physical Interaction: Alternates presence can affect the soul and also can separate Adam's soul from his body.

Seems more like some kind of unconventional Perception Manipulation?

Body Control & Size Manipulation (Large Size; Type 0): Alternates including Gabriel can stretch their body, can extend his arm or head and capable of making himself bigger.

Sure.

 

[VIZION99]

The bringing darkness stuff seems pretty consistent, although I'm not sure why you'd label it as "enhanced reality warping".

So these can be added to upgrade Darkness Manipulation?

 

[FinePoint]

So these can be added to upgrade Darkness Manipulation?

Probably, yes.

 

[VIZION99]

Probably, yes.

Also, is the CRT approved?

 

[FinePoint]

Also, is the CRT approved?

No.

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

The bringing darkness stuff seems pretty consistent, although I'm not sure why you'd label it as "enhanced reality warping".

I planned to revise the label as I see "Passive Darkness Manipulation (Sub-Hax: Reality Warping & Power Nullification)" is more fitting than this. The reason was that, his darkness, is very much alien to the fundamental sources of the world (that of everything in the Mandela Catalogue universe such as Light and Darkness). This led to the point where, when his darkness shows up, reality got distorted and by that effect, the world isn't working properly.

But given you accepted the premises, maybe I can notify you in your wall when the thread is done? Thanks.

I'm not sure how the scan shows this.

N is giving Jude a premonition of his death, or some sort. Although I'm not entirely sure if it's qualified, that's why I label it with "Possibly" rating.

I'm not sure how the scan shows this.

The tree is glitching and turning black after Gabriel's/Satan's disappearance.

Rather than "Statistic Inducement & Spatial Manipulation" - just "Density Manipulation" I believe is more fitting.

I can see the reason on Statistic Inducement, but why Spatial Manipulation were also included in this?

Seems more like some kind of unconventional Perception Manipulation?

Soul Manipulation is more convenient I believe.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Do not make an argument that some of the cartoon feats to be "not real" just because they seem inconsistent, as Alex Kister already said the cartoony episode were meant to re-tell us (the audience) of the Mandela Catalogue backstory or past event.

I don't know how much of this video I'm meant to watch but he isn't saying that at the linked timestamp. Rewinding a bit, he's explaining that he originally was going to make it a cartoon, but ended up not doing that. He isn't defending the cartoons as being reliable or anything.

Do not make an argument of Mystifing Oracle feats can't be used on Gabriel because there is not direct explanation of the entity being Alternates, as it is impossible, seeing both series are in the same universe and that there's no threat other than Alternates or Gabriel itself.

Surely it could be a different threat, though? I do think this is a stretch without explicit confirmation somewhere along the lines which, I presume, you don't have. I believe they're in the same universe, I find it questionable to attribute feats to characters not directly mentioned.

 

[VIZION99]

I don't know how much of this video I'm meant to watch but he isn't saying that at the linked timestamp. Rewinding a bit, he's explaining that he originally was going to make it a cartoon, but ended up not doing that. He isn't defending the cartoons as being reliable or anything.


Surely it could be a different threat, though? I do think this is a stretch without explicit confirmation somewhere along the lines which, I presume, you don't have. I believe they're in the same universe, I find it questionable to attribute feats to characters not directly mentioned.

Is this CRT approved?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Is this CRT approved?

No, I haven't even spoken on the content of it yet, just that I don't like the preemptive attempts to stifle counterarguments, since I think these attempts are themselves faulty.

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

I don't know how much of this video I'm meant to watch but he isn't saying that at the linked timestamp. Rewinding a bit, he's explaining that he originally was going to make it a cartoon, but ended up not doing that. He isn't defending the cartoons as being reliable or anything.

Alex said that in the context of his history with Overthrone. He said that, "what if" this kind of episode (in the same timeline), have effects, into the future. What would actually happened.

I made that counter-arguments, because there's still people who take the cartoony episode as not elligible to be a feats, because the events did not happened. Which is, in much bigger context, is wrong in any way (as that would defeat Alex Kister premises of the show).

Surely it could be a different threat, though? I do think this is a stretch without explicit confirmation somewhere along the lines which, I presume, you don't have. I believe they're in the same universe, I find it questionable to attribute feats to characters not directly mentioned.

We take assumption based on the evidence that's already available. Saying it's a different threat, when there's no evidence do say it so, is a false argument.

I'm giving the option, that it is indeed alternates, as 1 ) They're in the same universe and 2 ) The only threats in that universe is only the alternates at the end of the day (seeing how 6 is a part of Gabriel's mate, given he's not a fully materialized alternates, SPOILER BTW).

We're also shown that in every timeline, alternates is the only things that exist as a threat. That includes the most safest timeline, plushies timeline.

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

No, I haven't even spoken on the content of it yet, just that I don't like the preemptive attempts to stifle counterarguments, since I think these attempts are themselves faulty

I love how the cartoony episode arguments being not elligible is cool and accurate, but my arguments is... faulty and unlikely. That if you actually think Alex is wrong at this point (as saying all of that, is basically rejecting the whole history of Mandela Catalogue events, which he already built for a long period of time).

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Alex said that in the context of his history with Overthrone. He said that, "what if" this kind of episode (in the same timeline), have effects, into the future. What would actually happened.

I made that counter-arguments, because there's still people who take the cartoony episode as not qualified to be a feats, because the events did not happened. Which is, in much bigger context, is wrong in any way (as that would defeat Alex Kister premises of the show).

Full text of what specifically he said:

Spoiler: Long text

Now I did talk about this on my interview with Wendigoon, which should be uploaded in a couple days... but, when I made Overthrone, which was the first video, my plan at the time was to kinda keep going with that theme of quote unquote corrupted kid's cartoons. And that was gonna be the whole series, it was gonna be like an anthology type thing.

But, I kinda decided like, I really like the story, and the premise that Overthrone had, so I just decided "Okay. What if I took this concept but in the same timeline go two thousand years forward? What would life still be like? What if there was this reprisal of this antagonist?" So that's how that kinda turned into how it is now. It was definitely not supposed to turn into this, it was kind of a natural thing. But, anyway, that's all I can say about that.

You, in the OP, interpret this as this:

"as Alex Kister already said the cartoony episode were meant to re-tell us (the audience) of the Mandela Catalogue backstory or past event."

...but that's pretty far departed from what he actually said. He said he wanted to expand on an idea one time. Your counter-argument is misrepresenting what was said.

We take assumption based on the evidence that's already available. Saying it's a different threat, when there's no evidence do say it so, is a false argument.

I'm giving the option, that it is indeed alternates, as 1 ) They're in the same universe 2 ) The only threats in that universe is only the alternates at the end of the day (seeing how 6 is a part of Gabriel's mate, given he's not a fully materialized alternates SPOILER BTW).

We're also shown that in every timeline, alternates is the only one that exist as a threat. That includes the most safest timeline, plushies timeline.

You are expected to provide a reasonable assumption. If I deem the assumption unreasonable, then it is my duty, in turn, to say as much. I am not a lawyer who must argue with you, my fellow lawyer, over interpretations: I am the judge to whom you must present your case. If your case is weak and doesn't hold up, then I dismiss it. This is the role of the evaluating staff member in a CRT. You're not debating me, although we can indeed debate: you're trying to convince me.

Your interpretation assumes that we must be dealing with some already known thing, my sole issue is that this assumption isn't based on anything- it is baseless. Them being in the same universe doesn't matter, nor does it matter that they're the primary threats shown so far. The key factor there is "so far". If they were alternates, I'd assume you to have better evidence of them being alternates, rather than relying on the idea that it must be them, because what else might it be? Do they act much like alternates? Do they share many of the same abilities?

I love how the cartoony episode arguments being not elligible is cool and accurate, but my arguments is... faulty and unlikely. That if you actually think, Alex is wrong at this point (as saying all of that, is basically rejecting the whole history of Mandela Catalogue events, which he already built for a long period of time).

I don't know what you're trying to say here. The first bit is obviously trying to paint any reservations against this as absurd but given that Alex didn't make the point you're making, I'm unsure what the argument here is, or indeed why it is in response to my simple confirmation that this thread was not, in fact, accepted.

Now then. I had a guy I bounced things like Mandela Catalogue off of, but unfortunately he wised up and no longer uses the wiki. I suppose it is a verse with a small amount of content and I could probably just consume it all myself in order to verify the claims made here, but for now I'll wait to further this discussion, perhaps you may put my concerns to rest without the need for me to waste my time like that.

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

Surely it could be a different threat, though? I do think this is a stretch without explicit confirmation somewhere along the lines which, I presume, you don't have. I believe they're in the same universe, I find it questionable to attribute feats to characters not directly mentioned.

And btw, I'm curious of this "explicit" kind of thing. In my interpretation, did you say that, every feats in here have to be explicit? Author intention doesn't matter? Connecting the dots and references too? I mean, every fiction doesn't do this "explicit" thing, does that mean it doesn't happened given the explanation?

Heck, this series is full of subtlety in the first place. Asking for an explicit evidence is literally against that premise. That's why I'm trying so hard to make it as make sense as possible within the lore of the series.

I find it questionable to attribute feats to characters not directly mentioned.

The character in Mystifying Oracle? It's demon or the devil, the last part of the video already says that.

And we know what the devil or demon in this series looks like. That either alternates (because 1 ) The whole concept of alternates is a psychological dread, which is what the antagonist show in Mystifying Oracle and 2 ) Their unrealistic physical body as shown in the first episode of the series, which is literally alternates kind of thing) or Gabriel (given the subtle reference of him and Satan in the series).

I'm attributing this feats to Gabriel as well because chain-scaling exist. All of alternates ability, comes from him, as they exist within his hive mind.

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

...but that's pretty far departed from what he actually said. He said he wanted to expand on an idea one time. Your counter-argument is misrepresenting what was said.

The point is, it still happened on the same timeline. The event occurs, that's the whole point I'm trying to make, and that's how Alex said it.

You are expected to provide a reasonable assumption. If I deem the assumption unreasonable, then it is my duty, in turn, to say as much. I am not a lawyer who must argue with you, my fellow lawyer, over interpretations: I am the judge to whom you must present your case. If your case is weak and doesn't hold up, then I dismiss it. This is the role of the evaluating staff member in a CRT. You're not debating me, although we can indeed debate: you're trying to convince me.

Which I already did? I'm giving a fully reasonable context within the lore of the series. Meanwhile, you're saying it's unreasonable, because it's... unreasonable despite there's evidence saying otherwise? It's a rejection, for the sake of rejecting at this point, huh.

Your interpretation assumes that we must be dealing with some already known thing, my sole issue is that this assumption isn't based on anything- it is baseless. Them being in the same universe doesn't matter, nor does it matter that they're the primary threats shown so far. The key factor there is "so far".

How is it baseless when in every timelines, alternates exist as the only threats? There is no good or evil supernatural and God in this series, that's why there's a symbolic reference to Vol 4 in Mystifying Oracle (that "they" disobey darkness or light in the series).

Them being in the same universe do matter, as this series is literally about them. Do you even think why Alex decided to make Mystifying Oracle on the same series as Mandela Catalogue in the first place? Can you even think, what is his plan about Mystifying Oracle, that he changed his mind to make it within Mandela Catalogue series?

If they were alternates, I'd assume you to have better evidence of them being alternates, rather than relying on the idea that it must be them, because what else might it be? Do they act much like alternates? Do they share many of the same abilities?

As I already said above after your reply here, yes, they share the same concept and personality. They act like alternates (psychological dread), and their name is demon or the devil (which is related to alternates, again, or Gabriel, given he's being referenced to be Satan all the time). And they share many of the same abilities, yes.

I don't know what you're trying to say here. The first bit is obviously trying to paint any reservations against this as absurd but given that Alex didn't make the point you're making, I'm unsure what the argument here is, or indeed why it is in response to my simple confirmation that this thread was not, in fact, accepted.

"The same timeline" already refute what you said. I don't know why I'm in the false position here, given what he said is literally against your rejection.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

You have, since I replied, become aggressive, one notes. My position has been reduced to being disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing. It is not required of me to continue to prod for information that you ought to have provided to begin with, or represented better, if I am to be denigrated like that. My time is limited and my patience is moreso and I will not deal in childish things if you don't want help.

I reject the CRT.

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

I'm being aggresive because your mannerism with the rejection comes out a little bit rude (the fact that I came with a logical conclusion based on the "Same timeline" and you calls it faulty, heat things up even more). I'm already giving evidence, and the evidence says what point I'm trying to make, and despite all of that, you tried to depict it to work within your claim, like it's very obvious what intention you're trying to make.

Though, you're a staff. Anyway. Alright. Literally proved my point. There's a reason why I said what I said.

 

[FinePoint]

Interview aside, I do find it extremely likely the cartoon segments are meant to be depicting what happened in the past, as it would make very little narrative sense to establish them otherwise.

Overall, my opinion hasn't changed since the beginning of the CRT.

I approve of the Size Manipulation, the Darkness Manipulation, and Density Manipulation for the chains.
Everything else seems iffy and/or an assumption.

 

[VIZION99]

You have, since I replied, become aggressive, one notes. My position has been reduced to being disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing. It is not required of me to continue to prod for information that you ought to have provided to begin with, or represented better, if I am to be denigrated like that. My time is limited and my patience is moreso and I will not deal in childish things if you don't want help.

I reject the CRT.

Size Manipulation, Density Manipulation, and upgrade for Darkness Manipulation seem fine so there's no reason to reject the whole CRT.