FTL speed in Final Fantasy characters scaled on Bahamut Fury

[Zeshinumi]

So this is steaming from the discussion about Tifa's page, but I wanted to stem from that because I have a feeling the discussion has been cloted by yang vs tifa stuff. THIS IS NOT ABOUT THAT. The main issue I have is the character's from FF7 being scaled to FTL speed based on a CG cutscene displaying Bahamut Fury's attack. This is what I was told was the reason they were FTL. I want to reiterate this particular discussion HAS NOTHING to do with the other attributes, just speed. I may mention other attributes but that's just to reiterate my point about the scene, but this spesific post is JUST about speed

1. If the character's were FTL, this would cause many plot holes - If tifa, cloud, or tifa could move FTL, then there would be little reason for them to have a vehicle to get around. Moving FTL means you're a speedster, it means you can zip past people, run around the world in 7 seconds, and can dodge bullets with ease. Zack's final scene is a prime example of why they are not FTL (same game bahamut fury is in) because he obviously died to bullets. If he was really FTL, his strength would have easily allowed him to pick up cloud and run out without issue. The game did not let that happen, which means the artist who designed the characters did not intend for them to be speedsters. On top of that, if Tifa was FTL, why wouldn't she be on the front when they were planting bombs in the reactors? That speed would let you get around too quick for people to notice. It just doesn't seem the intent of the artists was to give them FTL speed. I think the only character which displayed a speedster like ability was Loz, and when he did he moved like lightning, because that was his thing as seen

2. The BF exaflare cutscene is a massive over exaggeration meant to be a flashy attack, as with most FF cutscene attacks. In this post http://www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?b=26489 someone calculated the force of the attack he fired. That attack should have destoyed the planet is roughly 2.24e32J (based on this post: http://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/56633/how-much-energy-would-it-take-to-blow-up-the-earth ) and that attack was 6.24e36 J. At the very least the city would have been damaged, but it wasn't because it wasn't intended to be an example of actual damage, just as it wasn't an example of actual speed compared to Zack. On top of that the planets and asteroids were way off scale, unless he grows massively in size when flying in space as well.

3. Even if it was intended for Bahamut Fury to be able to fly in space at FTL speeds, this is not evidence that zack can move as fast, nor is it evidence BF fights that fast. This goes back to the Movement speed does not equal fighting speed arguement. To start off, BF's flight could be contributed to warping. In this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQWRAEVPVcc it shows space distorting around him every time he jumps in a direction, which spacial distortion could contribute to why he moves so far so quickly. For this, i'm going to pull a space Trek, their ships obviously can go great distances FTL, but when they aren't warping their speed is drastically different. In this manner, they can get through space easily, but when they are face to face with an opponent they can't use that speed in a fight. Even though BF is a creature and not a ship, he shows similar signs with his travel speed as those ships, which I would guess means when he's in a fight he CAN'T use that speed. On top of that, warping does not require FTL reflexes to get around. In the video, he's moving to a spot, stopping, then turning, which means he probably travels by a means of jumping to where he can see, which doesn't require FTL perception. On top of that, when he is actually fighting zack, he makes no attempt to dodge any of his attacks, none. His characteristic seems more on the level of he doesn't need to dodge because he's that tough, and doesn't bother rather than he is unable to.

4. Scaling everyone to FTL because of that one fight scene means you have to scale EVERYTHING to that level to make it true. It would sound a lot simpler to simple take a step back and look at it from a different angle than to say EVERYTHING is faster than light because zack could hit something that can warp around in space. I mean, it means the bikes would have to be FTL+ otherwise what's the point in using it in combat or traveling with them. It just seems absurd to take that one fact and ignore every other material to the contrary saying it's just scaled down so we can see it. The only evidence I could find of anyone having super speed of any kind was Loz, which i will point out when he finally used in his fight with tifa was way faster then she could react. And shown in this fight https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZtD89CR2rY cloud was mostly on the defensive when Loz used speed strikes, which means he could atisipate the strikes, but when he got distracted like at 1:58 in that video, he couldn't react in time to dodge or block. Cloud is definitely faster than Tifa when you take their rpg stats, but even then he doesn't move in any way like Loz. However, even though Loz shows signs of a speedster, showing that the artist DOES actually acknowledge this in their work, differing his speed between as fast as lighting or faster than light would be up for debate. I would argue it's as fast as lightning, as he doesn't do the classic trope of suddenly behind you, he zips across with his image lagging behind like a lightning strike, but that is more of an opinion, there's no strong evidence to show either way. Regardless, he's the only one who moved like a speedster, which would indicate no one else is, and only cloud could really keep up with him as long as he could anticipate his attacks.

TLR

1.No other material displays the FF7 character's as speedsters in the games.

2.The Bahamut Fury Cutscene is an exaggeration, not a 1 to 1 representatio

3.Bahamut's Warp speed is non comparable to zack's fighting speed.

4.Loz is the only one who shows evidence of any speedster like abilities, and it's unclear if he even is FTL or just as fast as lighting.

I will reiterate, this post has nothing to do with the comparison of Yang and Tifa, it is simply a complaint about the final fantasy's character's speed being scaled off BF warp speed in his fight with zack. I have more points I could throw in there, but this post is already getting to long.

 

[The_Everlasting]

1. This can all be answered by one simple thing: The creators did not know how powerful they made the characters. This is a common thing in fiction. Plus, Zack dying to bullets is PIS in general as he has taken far more damage.

2. This is why we classify a difference between attack potency and destructive capacity. Summon attacks are a canon thing in FFVII.

3. I see no point where BF bends space aside from a few visual tricks, and bending space could actually be attributed to his great speed. Assuming flight speed Ôëá combat speed when there's no proof that it does doesn't make much sense, otherwise we'd nullify 90% of the speed calcs that exist. Bahamut Fury also tries to hit Zack, but fails to do so. Also, you CLEARLY see Bahamut Fury turn when he's flying.

4. We powerscale thanks to Genesis, who is shown to fight on par with Zack and Sephiroth. It having a typical trope attributed to lightning speed means nothing, hypersonic characters rarely make sonic booms or similar things.

 

[Zeshinumi]

1. That being so, in game he still get's hit by the bullets is just as comparable as zack dodging BF's attack. You can't take one and ignore the other, that's confirmation bias. On top of that i'm only talking about the speed, they clearly shown a representation of a speedster, and Loz was the only one to do so beyond anyone using haste.

2.Ill admit the video could be artisitcly showing he can warp fly through space, but feats beyond that can't be cannon without beliving it's an over exaguration, as I stated it would mean he leveled the city, which he clearly did not as shown post fight.

3. In this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8VwaEv3z1M at 7-9 seconds, he very clearly is causing an effect which distorts vision in a very classic warp speed type effect. It could be spacial distortion or just warp speed, either way there is a clear representation. I would also point out this effect happens only when he's flying in space, and never while he's fighting. And fighting speed is VERY different then travel speed, after all one simple example is the mussles you use with your legs is not the same as the ones you use in your arms. In this case, what ever magical force allowing him to fly is clearly seperate then what moves his arms, and visually looks different then his flight ability in space. It's also entirly possible that he can't use that movement speed on the planet's surface, and a much easier explination of his difference in flight speed and fight speed then to say all FF7 character's are speedsters. Also, i will point out in this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sgLhlTBIgfs at 2:18, when he flys up to do the attack, the speed he moved out of frame is much faster then ANYTHING else he does in that combat, supporting his flight speed is signicantly greater then his fighting speed, or that he never uses any means to try to take advantage of it, meaning zack could be normal swinging speeds and still hit BF.

4.The point is they did represent a speedster like effect with Loz and didn't apply it to anything else, meaning they artisiticly wanted to protray him as a speedster. If all the character's were intended to be FTL, they would likly all exibit similar attributes rather then just having one character display said characteristics. Also, sonic booms only happen to those within a sationary effect as somthing moves fast them a certain speed in the air based on their mass and air they push. Totaly possible for a bullet traveling faster then sound to pass over you without a massive boom as it's small, it makes more of a zip noise instead.

 

[Everlasting-Mercy_(KJB93)]

@The Everlasting Weren't they also Mako bullets aswell?

 

[The_Everlasting]

1. You can't call one part of a scene PIS but not another.

2. Attack Potency =/= Destructive Capacity.

3. Why would it not just warp itself to its destination? We're trying to use the physiology of humans with a dragon... I don't even. If we were to just call every travel feat "travel speed", then the only way to judge combat speed is with fighting over a particular distance or dodging attacks, which would really lowball what a character can really do. This point relies on "travel speed =/= combat speed no matter what", so I have no opinion.

4. You don't get it. Visual tropes do not remotely determine the speed of an object.

 

[Zeshinumi]

Look, we can keep going back and forth, but the main point is this. Did BF or did he not move way faster then any of his attacks physically right before he started the exaflare? Could it be possible since he clearly could have moved faster then any of his normal attacks that he chose not to use any speed he may or may not have had in the combat? As such is it not possible that what ever speed he could fly does not nessisarly compared to any ability for him to dodge as he did not actually dodge attacks in that combat, when his flight out just BEFORE the cutscene started clearly shows he could have moved faster in combat compared to all his attacks? And if that's true, is it possible that zack was attacking with not FTL speed, as nothing else displays his ability to do so? If so, could it be possible zack was not FTL but BF who could possibly fly at FTL just didnt bother to dodge attacks, because he didn't feel it nessisary for what ever reason?