Frisk vs Aleister and The Magic Gods Can determination defeat magic?

[Aurasuke]

This isn't a direct battle, this is a battle to see whether or not Aleister and The Magic Gods can bring Frisk to despair. If they are able to do so, then they win. If not then Frisk wins.

Aleister gets 1 week prep after seeing Frisk once.

Frisk starts out with maximum determination.

The magic gods are able to use every tool in their arsenal to fight Frisk, however they will not kill her but rather do everything in their power to make her know despair. They are allowed to work together with Aleister in order to do this. However even if she is killed they will revive her. They will do everything in her power to make her feel despair.

Can they do this?

prematch conditions:

Frisk's world will end if she doesn't stand up to the Magic Gods. Everyone God in Undertale has been killed by the Magic Gods (not unlikely but anyway just a preamble, anyway let's not start a discussion about one tier High 2-A vs multiple High 2-As or what not lol), Frisk is the only one left to save humanity within Undertale, and after witnessing countless monsters being tortured for billions of years before finally being killed, she is the only one left to stand in the ways of the Magic Gods before they destroy the undertale verse. Can she protect everything or will she lose everything?



Despite everything, it's still you.


vs

 

[Alice_Liddel_in_WikiLand]

What are the win conditions for Frisk?

 

[Aurasuke]

No matter what the gods do they cannot make her feel despair, they eventually give up and let her go free. However Frisk does not know this. She doesn't know that they'll ever give up, or that they won't just kill her right off. Only the Magic Gods know and Aleister of course.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

What happened pre-battle and what are the stakes for Frisk. This HEAVILY alters Determination, so it's probably important.

 

[Aurasuke]

I thought for awhile, but decided on the scenario.

 

[Squid_peanut]

yeah Frisk is the kind of person who will keep resisting infinitely. I don't see anything detering them.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Yeah, not seeing Frisk's Determination break for this one. In fact, the only time it was weakened was after they spared Asgore, he poured his heart out to them, and then Flowey came in and murdered him, and even then they got it back.

 

[Aurasuke]

Yeah, not seeing Frisk's Determination break for this one. In fact, the only time it was weakened was after they spared Asgore, he poured his heart out to them, and then Flowey came in and murdered him, and even then they got it back.

Wow really? Othinius led Touma over a billion worlds to make him suffer from boiling him in lava, to having his own friends murder him. The actual magic gods were infinitely stronger than Othinius. They could change the world around Frisk so that her own friends began starting to attack him. It would mean the very people She was was trying to protect suddenly turned on her.

 

[Alice_Liddel_in_WikiLand]

Frisk with much, much less (a couple of encourage words from their friends) manage to have enough determination to endure a being who was trying to erase them from existence...The scenario is kinda over the top considering that.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Asriel already did the "your own friends are trying to end you and have given up completely on both you and themselves" thing. Hell, he even used the actual souls of Frisk's friends, and it didn't shake Frisk's Determination in the slightest. As Alice said, they managed to pull through this with like...a few words of encouragement prior to the events. This is also even after Asriel had supposedly murdered everyone they cared about.

 

[Aurasuke]

But what if those very friends began to attack her, what of those friends were shown living a happy world where she didn't exist. A world where no one had to die and everyone was happy, with the exception that she wasn't there.

Could she live with herself knowing that by rejecting this reality she would be essentially killing off all those who have died?

The magic Gods can bring despair with fear, and salvation. They can make her feel like she no longer has a reason to exist in a perfect world. They can also turn everyone of her friends against her.

The magic gods don't fight directly, they make the characters fight the world.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

But what if those very friends began to attack her, what of those friends were shown living a happy world where she didn't exist. A world where no one had to die and everyone was happy, with the exception that she wasn't there.
Could she live with herself knowing that by rejecting this reality she would be essentially killing off all those who have died?

The magic Gods can bring despair with fear, and salvation. They can make her feel like she no longer has a reason to exist in a perfect world. They can also turn everyone of her friends against her.

The magic gods don't fight directly, they make the characters fight the world.

See my previous comment.

 

[Aurasuke]

Asriel already did the "your own friends are trying to end you and have given up completely on both you and themselves" thing. Hell, he even used the actual souls of Frisk's friends, and it didn't shake Frisk's Determination in the slightest. As Alice said, they managed to pull through this with like...a few words of encouragement prior to the events. This is also even after Asriel had supposedly murdered everyone they cared about.

Then what if Frisk is shown a world where no one had died, where everyone she cared about, everyone who ever existed lived happily? A world where she has no place in, a world where she was replaced by a copy, someone else who could do the same things she has.

What if she was the onlyanomaly in the world, the only thing that would break it's perfection, by simply living by being there, she threatens to destroy the very salvation the Magic Gods have brought to everyone everywhere. Could she still live with herself even after knowing all that? That she herself will be the very reason for destroying the salvation of everyone else?

 

[Alice_Liddel_in_WikiLand]

Asriel was trying to do exactly the same with Frisk but again. With much less they managed to overcome that. In fact Asriel say it straigh out.

"I can feel it... Every time you die, your grip on this world slips away. Every time you die, your friends forget you a little more. Your life will end here, in a world where no one remembers you..."


Again. With the scenario above i see no way they will bring Frisk to despair.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

What if she was the onlyanomaly in the world, the only thing that would break it's perfection, by simply living by being there, she threatens to destroy the very salvation the Magic Gods have brought to everyone everywhere. Could she still live with herself even after knowing all that? That she herself will be the very reason for destroying the salvation of everyone else?

Probably, yeah. Frisk's been pretty used to severe emotional trauma as well as overcoming similar scenarios.

 

[Aurasuke]

But did Asriel bring salvation to the world like the Magic Gods?

That scenario may actually increase her determination to win because she doesn't want to be forgotten, however if no one remembers her in the first place then what is she even fighting for? Everyone is happy, no one has to die, the world is completely perfect, and her presence alone will erase all of that.

The best course of action she can take is to die, thus preventing this perfect world from being destroyed. If she truly cares about her friends isn't that what she would do?

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Frisk didn't die against Asgore for that tho, or Undyne.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Bro, Frisk has watched themself brutally murder everyone they know and love while unable to do anything, and that didn't dissuade them.

Knowing that a mouse might one day eat cheese filled them with Determination.

The Magic Gods aren't breaking that. Aleister would probably do better, but I still don't see him succeeding.

 

[Aurasuke]

^ Isn't that because Chara took over him not sure what you mean by themself? Without that kind of influence it's purely her decision. She would willingly chose to live and destroy the lives and dreams of everyone rather than commit suicide to bring salvation ot the world?

Knowing that a mouse might one day eat cheese filled them with Determination.

(I don't really get this statment lol)

To be honest, I actually see Aleister succeeding lol, though I'm not sure what kind of plan he would come up with, it probably be very complicated and convient to the plot by saying that he was the mastermind of everything including level 6 shift on accelerator failing lol. He has over 10 000 backup plans for like every situation. How else do you think he managed to take down the Magic Gods?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

^ Isn't that because Chara took over him not sure what you mean by themself? Without that kind of influence it's purely her decision. She would willingly chose to live and destroy the lives and dreams of everyone rather than commit suicide to bring salvation ot the world?
Knowing that a mouse might one day eat cheese filled them with Determination.

(I don't really get this statment lol)

Yes, but they still watched themself do it.

As for the second point, yes, they would. Frisk was completely willing to screw everyone over just so they could craft the best possible outcome, eventually.

There's nothing to get. Knowing that fact was enough to fill them with Determination.

 

[The_Everlasting]

@Azathoth

And considering the pre-match conditions, Frisk is going to be filled with a LOT of Determination.

 

[Alice_Liddel_in_WikiLand]

"^ Isn't that because Chara took over him not sure what you mean by themself? Without that kind of influence it's purely her decision. She would willingly chose to live and destroy the lives and dreams of everyone rather than commit suicide to bring salvation ot the world?"

Chara was still in Frisk's body. So she watched Chara murder the entire underground, after the world. In their own body. With their own hands. Of couse she wouldn't done that if she could. But the important part is that she has endure that kind of traumatic experience before.

And yes. Against all possible odds. Decided that in a world totally strange for them it would be better to just show mercy to people who were about to kill her without reason. Even when it was stated to her that it was "kill or be killed" She just said "Screw that" And formed her own way. That would NOT break her determination

"(I don't really get this statment lol)"

One f the check points that are enough for Frisk to still hang on is. Literally. Think about a mouse would someday eat cheese. Do you understeand why i said that the scenario was over the top?

 

[Aurasuke]

^That's exactly why she would rather die than keep on living. Her own death would bring salvation to everything else. It's not that she knows she has no chance of willing, it's that she knows by willing she will destroy the world of undertale.

If she truly believes that because a mouse would someday eat cheese again, then resigning would be the best option to ensure that happens.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

^That's exactly why she would rather die than keep on living. Her own death would bring salvation to everything else. It's not that she knows she has no chance of willing, it's that she knows by willing she will destroy the world of undertale.
If she truly believes that because a mouse would someday eat cheese again, then resigning would be the best option to ensure that happens.

I don't think you saw the previous point. Against Undyne and Asgore, Frisk knew their death would ensure countless individuals lived happy lives. They didn't care, kept going, and ended up creating the optimal timeline that otherwise would have been impossible. "Resign to death" is never an option, to them.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Like I said, Frisk didn't resign against Asgore or Undyne, far from it.

 

[Aurasuke]

Like I said, Frisk didn't resign against Asgore or Undyne, far from it.

This isn't just a single timeline, this isn't just the loss of a single universe, by opposing the Magic Gods who could bring salvation she would destroy the hopes and dreams of everyone ever. By simply refusing to give up, everything around her would dissapear instantly. Would she be able to live with herself then? The Magic Gods have brought salvation to every timeline and possibility. There is no hope for her to hope for anything better.

The opposite of that would be to take away everything she has. Her hearing, sight, smell, taste, touch, limbs so that she couldn't walk or move, she wouldn't be able to speak or talk, or even move. She would be in a place with absolutely nothing, with no power to resist she would be unable to do anything but think about why she was here, even after a hundred years, or a thousand, or a billion years have passed, could she still have the determination needed to live? Would she not be begging to die as nothing else would ever exist? Even if something did exist, she wouldn't even know.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Like I said, Frisk didn't resign against Asgore or Undyne, far from it.
This isn't just a single timeline, this isn't just the loss of a single universe, by opposing the Magic Gods who could bring salvation she would destroy the hopes and dreams of everyone ever. By simply refusing to give up, everything around her would dissapear instantly. Would she be able to live with herself then? The Magic Gods have brought salvation to every timeline and possibility. There is no hope for her to hope for anything better.

The opposite of that would be to take away everything she has. Her hearing, sight, smell, taste, touch, limbs so that she couldn't walk or move, she wouldn't be able to speak or talk, or even move. She would be in a place with absolutely nothing, with no power to resist she would be unable to do anything but think about why she was here, even after a hundred years, or a thousand, or a billion years have passed, could she still have the determination needed to live? Would she not be begging to die as nothing else would ever exist? Even if something did exist, she wouldn't even know.

This is all just baby stuff to Frisk, dude. It wouldn't matter if they couldn't do anything, if there was nothing, or if everyone they ever knew was dead. They'd still keep a single thought in mind of how they could just magically fix everything (which they can) or how somewhere, in another reality, someone pet a dog or some shit, and that'd be enough Determination to succeed. That's just how it works.

 

[Aurasuke]

So basically even if Elder God Demonbane were to try and break her determination they couldn't succeed without simply warping it away?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

What do you mean if EGD tried to break Determination without warping it? That's not really how EGD works. If it needs a concept destroyed, it could simply manipulate it. It wouldn't try to make its opponent sad or anything.

 

[Aurasuke]

By that's the same as saying making Frisk forget everything that ever happened. In a way the Magic Gods could simply revert her mind to a blank slate by removing all her memories.

What I mean is break her determination without changing the definition of determination. Of course there's no reason why the Magic Gods couldn't just change the definition of determination either. In fact they probably have spells that literally just make their opponents feel despair. However that would be too boring.

I'm saying that without directly erasing her determination, how would Elder God Demonbane defeat her? By destroying the concept you are basically destroying her determination which is what I mean by warping it away. EGD could easily affect her determination by breaking the concept but that essentially is the same as warping her determination away.

I'm asking if Demonbane can defeat Frisks's determination without directly affecting the concept of determination or erasing her memories to prevent her from being determined or simply warping her in a state of despair. If they can change everything around her, and even affect her physically but not manipulate concepts or her mind.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

By that's the same as saying making Frisk forget everything that ever happened. In a way the Magic Gods could simply revert her mind to a blank slate by removing all her memories.
What I mean is break her determination without changing the definition of determination. Of course there's no reason why the Magic Gods couldn't just change the definition of determination either. In fact they probably have spells that literally just make their opponents feel despair. However that would be too boring.

I'm saying that without directly erasing her determination, how would Elder God Demonbane defeat her? By destroying the concept you are basically destroying her determination which is what I mean by warping it away. EGD could easily affect her determination by breaking the concept but that essentially is the same as warping her determination away.

I'm asking if Demonbane can defeat Frisks's determination without directly affecting the concept of determination or erasing her memories to prevent her from being determined or simply warping her in a state of despair. If they can change everything around her, and even affect her physically but not manipulate concepts or her mind.

For paragraphs 1 and 2: Because they can't. The Magic Gods are on a similar level to Frisk. EGD is literally infinite degrees of infinity beyond them.

By destroying them?

 

[Aurasuke]

To counteragument 1: There's more than one Magic God. Even if Frisk can withstand 1, she can't withstand the combined magic of 8 or more sepcially if someone like Aleister is involved who could literally create a spell strong enough to weaken the Magic Gods enough for a Dog Traveling at Mach 20 to kill them. In terms of feats Magic Gods are more impressive that Asirel in that they can warp reality much more freely that Asriel can. However simply using a spell to bring one despair isn't the point of this battle.

Secondly that isn't what I mean by defeating her determination. Sure they can probably destroy them, but I mean without directly affecting concepts or her memories directly, how would they manage to extinguish her determination and bring her to despair?

 

[Squid_peanut]

To counteragument 1: There's more than one Magic God. Even if Frisk can withstand 1, she can't withstand the combined magic of 8 or more sepcially if someone like Aleister is involved who could literally create a spell strong enough to weaken the Magic Gods enough for a Dog Traveling at Mach 20 to kill them. In terms of feats Magic Gods are more impressive that Asirel in that they can warp reality much more freely that Asriel can. However simply using a spell to bring one despair isn't the point of this battle.
Secondly that isn't what I mean by defeating her determination. Sure they can probably destroy them, but I mean without directly affecting concepts or her memories directly, how would they manage to extinguish her determination and bring her to despair?

leave Frisk to live a happy life. that is their one option really

 

[Aurasuke]

^ Hmm, that may break her for having any reason to be determined, but it wouldn't bring her despair lol.