Frieren: Beyond Journey's End speed downgrade

[BadSystems]

Neutral for now, but prefer to see context of the lightning in question.

We have no standard on electricity speed, there's been no real care given to it. So this ends up being a case by case thing. And while I understand we have strict standards for a reason, I don't think there's need for them here because at a certain level, a reader is expected to be able to make logical assumptions without outright statements or clear-case showings. If a character is using an attack that is named after lightning and resembles electricity, I think scaling the speed of that attack to electricity at least should be fine unless we get something to contradict it. And the basis of this CRT isn't that there is a contradiction in characters being below the listed speeds of electricity, it's that no one ever proved it was real electricity which I just don't think is important in this instance.

Mark me down as disagree.

Have either of you had a change of heart? I’d recommend reading Zabazab’s most recent post for a general sum-up of the problem.

 

[Tatsumi504]

"I mean, yeah the attack is called Destructive Lightning and it's all zig-zaggy. So what? Magic arises from Subjective Reality and some made-up principles in Frieren." - BadSystems, 9 minutes ago.

Point is, no real reason for it to get anything off of the name and the way it's shaped.

The fact it arises from subjective reality and mages knowing how fast real lightning can actually given everyone has seen real lightning be would even serve as proof of it being MHS+ so your point defeats its own purpose

 

[BadSystems]

The fact it arises from subjective reality and mages knowing how fast real lightning can actually given everyone has seen real lightning be would even serve as proof of it being MHS+ so your point defeats its own purpose

If you saw a lightning strike you would mentally calculate and visualize its exact speed? Extraordinary Genius Tatsumi504?

 

[Tatsumi504]

If you saw a lightning strike you would mentally calculate and visualize its exact speed? Extraordinary Genius Tatsumi504?

It doesn't take a genius to guestimate the distance a streak of lightning travels instantaneously is freaking long. Your point is they rely on subjective reality to produce phenomena, lightning will still be one of the fastest things they can imagine. Either way, your point still defeats it's own purpose.

 

[BadSystems]

It doesn't take a genius to guestimate the distance a streak of lightning travels instantaneously is freaking long. Your point is they rely on subjective reality to produce phenomena, lightning will still be one of the fastest things they can imagine. Either way, your point still defeats it's own purpose.

If I saw a flash of lightning my literal only extraction from that would be "wow it came before the sound it must be faster than sound", I wouldn't intuit the speed of lightning or electricity from that. I don't get your point. "They see it as super fast" ---> "They can replicate the exact speed of lightning or electricity."

I mean, considering this is a verse that literally doesn't have electricity yet, them having knowledge of its exact speed seems to be a bit of a stretch.

 

[Tatsumi504]

If I saw a flash of lightning my literal only extraction from that would be "wow it came before the sound it must be faster than sound", I wouldn't intuit the speed of lightning or electricity from that. I don't get your point. "They see it as super fast" ---> "They can replicate the exact speed of lightning or electricity."

They can also have the thought "wow, it's light streaking through the sky, it must be light speed. Let's envision it as light when using magic". My point is you can't eat your cake and have it. Using their power system relying on subjective reality goes both ways. It can discredit it, it can make it even better, your interpretation isn't solely the correct choice.

I mean, considering this is a verse that literally doesn't have electricity yet, them having knowledge of its exact speed seems to be a bit of a stretch.

What does electricity have to do with anything? The point is real lightning will basically be the 2nd fastest thing they know of so using the speed of electricity as a lowball is actually valid.

 

[BadSystems]

They can also have the thought "wow, it's light streaking through the sky, it must be light speed. Let's envision it as light when using magic". My point is you can't eat your cake and have it. Using their power system relying on subjective reality goes both ways. It can discredit it, it can make it even better, your interpretation isn't solely the correct choice.

So your argument is that they could be imagining it as real lightning speed because it's pretty fast to the eye. I see. Also, it can't be light streaking through the sky if they know anything about light.

What does electricity have to do with anything? The point is real lightning will basically be the 2nd fastest thing they know of so using the speed of electricity as a lowball is actually valid.

It shows none of the properties of electricity, so the lowball is not valid based on "they visualize it as pretty fast based on what they've seen," despite the fact that the only thing you can really glean from observing lightning is that it must be faster than sound.

 

[Tatsumi504]

It shows none of the properties of electricity, so the lowball is not valid based on "they visualize it as pretty fast based on what they've seen," despite the fact that the only thing you can really glean from observing lightning is that it must be faster than sound.

I'm pretty sure it's not "it shows none of the properties" than it is "it hasn't been opportune to show any property" though I can't recall fully.

 

[BadSystems]

I'm pretty sure it's not "it shows none of the properties" than it is "it hasn't been opportune to show any property" though I can't recall fully.

It hasn't shown any of the properties at this point in the story. If in a few chapters Frieren proves me wrong I'll go back on this, but as of now there's nothing.

 

[karo_senpaii]

If I saw a flash of lightning my literal only extraction from that would be "wow it came before the sound it must be faster than sound", I wouldn't intuit the speed of lightning or electricity from that. I don't get your point. "They see it as super fast" ---> "They can replicate the exact speed of lightning or electricity."

I mean, considering this is a verse that literally doesn't have electricity yet, them having knowledge of its exact speed seems to be a bit of a stretch.

Tbh since you believe normal mages are at least mach 3 then you can't make this comparism. If we moved at mach 3 speeds and had higher perception we probably won't see lightning as a flash. It would still be pretty fast but depending on the speed of the strokes we would be able to guage the speed. It doesn't have to be the exact speed. They went for the safest which is electricity. I think at least Mach 3 mages can perceive electricity speed

 

[Duedate8898]

No I have not changed my position.

 

[Zabazab]

I think at least Mach 3 mages can perceive electricity speed

The only natural electricity which could ve witnessed in an era before electricity is used would be lightning. Which is like 430x faster than mach 3.

Also the entire argument from the perspective of "They'd visualize Judrajim as lightning speed because of SR" still doesn't even work, it's just headcanon.

 

[BadSystems]

Tbh since you believe normal mages are at least mach 3 then you can't make this comparism. If we moved at mach 3 speeds and had higher perception we probably won't see lightning as a flash. It would still be pretty fast but depending on the speed of the strokes we would be able to guage the speed. It doesn't have to be the exact speed. They went for the safest which is electricity. I think at least Mach 3 mages can perceive electricity speed

Normal mages aren't really Mach 3, though. Certain mages just have Mach 3 attack speed with Zoltraak, and other mages can react to this spell from some distance with thought-based barriers. Also, I'm pretty sure even if you could reasonably react to Mach 3 movement, lightning would still be about 400 times faster than that. Electricity speed is pretty much just an arbitrary choice.

 

[BadSystems]

No I have not changed my position.

Even though electricity and lightning are pretty much the exact same thing, and electricity speed is incredibly varied?

 

[YungManzi]

I knew we were more strict on lightning speed things, however I’ve never heard that we were so strict about whether or not something is electricity.

I mean, why would we need it to meet lighting standards for it to be electricity at all? Every other magic element is that real
Element, its literally a function of combat in cases like earth and water that the elements being manipulated cannot be just conjured by magic.

 

[BadSystems]

I knew we were more strict on lightning speed things, however I’ve never heard that we were so strict about whether or not something is electricity.

Lightning IS electricity, and either way the spell is called Destructive Lightning, not Destructive Electricity so there's no reason to take it as the latter's speed and run with it.

 

[YungManzi]

Lightning IS electricity, and either way the spell is called Destructive Lightning, not Destructive Electricity so there's no reason to take it as the latter's speed and run with it.

Lightning is electricity but in a certain context. Which is why we have standards for that context.

You would take the latter, because the higher interpretation (lightning) requires more assumptions on our part rather than just assuming these medieval era people would just consider anything electric to be lightning and that’s why the spell is named in such a manner.

 

[Duedate8898]

Even though electricity and lightning are pretty much the exact same thing, and electricity speed is incredibly varied?

I read Zab's post, so I don't need the summary. Yes, as I said originally, I agree with using the calc you've offered for this thread. But I think keeping the speed possibly Hypersonic thanks to the lightning spell is fair. The current scaling in fact, accounts for the fact that electricity varies in speed.

It's not like we're saying for certain these characters are hypersonic or lighting fast in their speed. But due to the basis of the magic system of the verse, I believe we've been given enough to at least say there's potential there for the speed to reach these greater heights in battle.

 

[BadSystems]

Lightning is electricity but in a certain context. Which is why we have standards for that context.

You would take the latter, because the higher interpretation (lightning) requires more assumptions on our part rather than just assuming these medieval era people would just consider anything electric to be lightning and that’s why the spell is named in such a manner.

I don’t think these medieval era people even know what electricity is to begin with.

I read Zab's post, so I don't need the summary. Yes, as I said originally, I agree with using the calc you've offered for this thread. But I think keeping the speed possibly Hypersonic thanks to the lightning spell is fair. The current scaling in fact, accounts for the fact that electricity varies in speed.

It's not like we're saying for certain these characters are hypersonic or lighting fast in their speed. But due to the basis of the magic system of the verse, I believe we've been given enough to at least say there's potential there for the speed to reach these greater heights in battle.

Alright then, if this doesn’t pass the next CRT will probably be deciding who scales and who doesn’t.

 

[YungManzi]

I don’t think these medieval era people even know what electricity is to begin with.

That was kind of my point.