Frieren: Beyond Journey's End speed downgrade

[BadSystems]

Hi. Currently, every Frieren character who has a profile on VSB has a "possibly Hypersonic+" in their speed section because Frieren herself can use and keep up with lightning magic, and various characters end up scaling to that.

The problem is that the lightning spell that Frieren uses is never established to be neither real lightning nor real electricity. The Hypersonic+ ratings should be removed from the pages as they're completely unjustified.

This calculation which gets the speed of Frieren's Zoltraak to Supersonic+ (about Mach 3.2) should replace it. That's it, should be a simple thread.

Agree: @Zabazab, @Shadow_x007x, @Vzearr

Disagree: @Duedate8898

Neutral: @Arceus0x, @DarkDragonMedeus, @JackPoison

 

[Zabazab]

Ahh, to have a normal speed rating. Agreed.

 

[BadSystems]

In the ideal world CGM votes would count for something like this. Going to shill the CRT now

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Neutral for now, but prefer to see context of the lightning in question.

 

[Arceus0x]

While I agree it isn't natural lightning, she upscales from electricity speed in air, not lightning speed. Lightning speed is Massively Hypersonic+, not hypersonic. It is literally linked in her speed section.

 

[Zabazab]

I think just saying "Hmm she's as fast as electricity" (assuming this spell, which is intended to be lightning, is even electricity-speed) is a poor justification, someone should calc it if they really want to use it.

Scaling to Zoltraak's fire speed which we directly see characters react to and dodge is a better justificaton.

 

[BadSystems]

While I agree it isn't natural lightning, she upscales from electricity speed in air, not lightning speed. Lightning speed is Massively Hypersonic+, not hypersonic. It is literally linked in her speed section.

So, rather than scaling to unjustified lightning speed, she scales to unjustified electricity speed. I should amend this in the CRT

 

[Arceus0x]

I think just saying "Hmm she's as fast as electricity" (assuming this spell, which is intended to be lightning, is even electricity-speed) is a poor justification, someone should calc it if they really want to use it.

Scaling to Zoltraak's fire speed which we directly see characters react to and dodge is a better justificaton.

no, the feat itself is the one when Frieren fights Solitar we see her counter like three lightning spells coming from several directions at once using perfectly placed small barriers

 

[Arceus0x]

or rather it was Solitar blocking the attacks used by Frieren.
https://media.**********.net/attachments/1106665035759108248/1271178718827642890/img.png?ex=66b664ef&is=66b5136f&hm=56d312cfe2ba1f3294c575d6b04eab4417e169266ea5ebd807a2b52517d3c376&=&format=webp&quality=lossless&width=431&height=619

 

[Zabazab]

no, the feat itself is the one when Frieren fights Solitar we see her counter like three lightning spells coming from several directions at once using perfectly placed small barriers

Judradjim has no qualities of actual electricity or lightning, beyond being called "destructive lightning", which is the point of the CRT.

 

[Arceus0x]

Either way the only real thing you need for lightning to be lightning speed is for it to come out of a cloud.
This is a spell that is called lightning and moves through air. It doesn't come out of the sky and so the lowball is assumed, that it is as fast as electricity is in air.
There is also no reason for it to be anything other than electricity since any other spell that spawns air or fire spawns air or fire, not a magical version that is weaker or slower.

 

[BadSystems]

Noted, but I don't think it being called "Destructive Lightning" warrants any speed tier at all. Should I put you in the disagree section?

 

[BadSystems]

Neutral for now, but prefer to see context of the lightning in question.

The context is that it's a spell called Destructive Lightning.

 

[Arceus0x]

Judradjim has no qualities of actual electricity or lightning, beyond being called "destructive lightning", which is the point of the CRT.

if it looks like lightning, used by a mage that uses elemental attacks, is called lightning then there is no reason for it not to be as fast as electricity. That would simply be unnecessary scrutiny. It is one thing when it is a laser but this isn't a laser, this is lightning, it doesn't require some crazy proof that it is electricity when it is literally called that

Noted, but I don't think it being called "Destructive Lightning" warrants any speed tier at all. Should I put you in the disagree section?

yes put me in the disagree section. While naming isn't as important when it comes to viewing abilities, that standard mostly comes into play when we have shit like black holes and light, aka, something very big that needs serious evidence and no contradictions. In Frieren's case it is something extremely common within verses - electricity, and it is called as such, and thus there's no reason to treat it otherwise.

 

[BadSystems]

yes put me in the disagree section. While naming isn't as important when it comes to viewing abilities, that standard mostly comes into play when we have shit like black holes and light, aka, something very big that needs serious evidence and no contradictions. In Frieren's case it is something extremely common within verses - electricity, and it is called as such, and thus there's no reason to treat it otherwise.

I think we should apply generally the same amount of care to lightning speed as to lightspeed and blackholes and stuff, all of them are pretty common in fiction. Lightning being a common phenomena doesn't mean it's exempt to standards. I mean, yeah the attack is called Destructive Lightning and it's all zig-zaggy. So what? Magic arises from Subjective Reality and some made-up principles in Frieren.

 

[Zabazab]

That would simply be unnecessary scrutiny. It is one thing when it is a laser but this isn't a laser, this is lightning, it doesn't require some crazy proof that it is electricity when it is literally called that

A name simply isn't enough for the same speed rating as a natural phenomena, It doesn't display even one of the qualities of natural electricity or lightning and therefore does not qualify.

Even if it did, only the spell would be Hypersonic+, Solitär blocking it would need to be calced. And even then, characters like Fern certainly wouldn't be scaling to the demon that blitzed her easily.

 

[Arceus0x]

I think we should apply generally the same amount of care to lightning speed as to lightspeed and blackholes and stuff, all of them are pretty common in fiction. Lightning being a common phenomena doesn't mean it's exempt to standards. I mean, yeah the attack is called Destructive Lightning and it's all zig-zaggy. So what? Magic arises from Subjective Reality and some made-up principles in Frieren.

No, we shouldn't apply the same amount of care. What's next, proving that the ice that looks like ice is 0 degrees celsius? Proving that the thing that looks like fire and acts like fire and is called fire is hot? Light has very strict rules and the amount of attempts at FTL wank are crazy, that's why there's scrutiny. Instead, here we have something that is called lightning that looks like lightning, shot by an element wielding mage and we scale it to electricity speed already. It is already scrutinized as it is since it isn't MHS+.

A name simply isn't enough for the same speed rating as a natural phenomena, It doesn't display even one of the qualities of natural electricity or lightning and therefore does not qualify.

it looks like electricity and is called lightning and is used by someone who has mastered the elements. It doesn't qualify for the speed of cloud to ground lightning but it does qualify for electricity.

Even if it did, only the spell would be Hypersonic+, Solitär blocking it would need to be calced. And even then, characters like Fern certainly wouldn't be scaling to the demon that blitzed her easily.

Solitar blocking three of them from different directions at the same time should make her upscale

 

[BadSystems]

No, we shouldn't apply the same amount of care. What's next, proving that the ice that looks like ice is 0 degrees celsius? Proving that the thing that looks like fire and acts like fire and is called fire is hot? Light has very strict rules and the amount of attempts at FTL wank are crazy, that's why there's scrutiny. Instead, here we have something that is called lightning that looks like lightning, shot by an element wielding mage and we scale it to electricity speed already. It is already scrutinized as it is since it isn't MHS+.

"I mean, yeah the attack is called Destructive Lightning and it's all zig-zaggy. So what? Magic arises from Subjective Reality and some made-up principles in Frieren." - BadSystems, 9 minutes ago.

Point is, no real reason for it to get anything off of the name and the way it's shaped.

 

[Arceus0x]

Point is, no real reason for it to get anything off of the name and the way it's shaped.

Aight bro brb gonna nerf every verse's elemental magic so fire isn't hot now, ice isn't cold now, air isn't windy ect. After all, they all look like the element they're supposed to be and are called that, but they just cannot be that element since subjective reality or whatever, it's just muh magic or sth.

 

[BadSystems]

Aight bro brb gonna nerf every verse's elemental magic so fire isn't hot now, ice isn't cold now, air isn't windy ect. After all, they all look like the element they're supposed to be and are called that, but they just cannot be that element since subjective reality or whatever, it's just muh magic or sth.

You mages and your demonic rituals and your fake lightning should be sent to the gallows methinks

 

[Zabazab]

it looks like electricity and is called lightning and is used by someone who has mastered the elements. It doesn't qualify for the speed of cloud to ground lightning but it does qualify for electricity.

These are false equivalences. Judradjim is called lightning, and we have strict lightning rules, so you're arguing it's electrcity-speed. However electricity-speed also requires evidence of the spell being natural electrcity: causing paralysis; electrolysis; powering technology; being conducted; or originating from a natural source. None of these conditions are met.

 

[Arceus0x]

These are false equivalences. Judradjim is called lightning, and we have strict lightning rules, so you're arguing it's electrcity-speed. However electricity-speed also requires evidence of the spell being natural electrcity: causing paralysis; electrolysis; powering technology; being conducted; or originating from a natural source. None of these conditions are met.

Ngl you're right. Screw it, I'mma go make a staff thread to remove the restrictions

 

[BadSystems]

Ngl you're right. Screw it, I'mma go make a staff thread to remove the restrictions

So... should I remove you from the 'disagree' section? By current site standards, you agree, right?

 

[Arceus0x]

So... should I remove you from the 'disagree' section? By current site standards, you agree, right?

Put me in neutral

 

[BadSystems]

Put me in neutral

I should make that a section.

 

[Duedate8898]

While we have lightning standards, being that this isn't being treated as lightning I don't think they actually apply here. Especially because the profiles aren't asserting that the lightning of Frieren's spell is lightning but that it is electricity. And seeing as the magic system of Frieren is about visualization and we're shown across the series that people can summon and control things like water, wind, earth and fire, electricity being an exception makes little sense.

I think this should be fine as is for now as possibly rating, while the use of the speed calc provided being further proof of the supersonic end on the speed

 

[JackPoison]

Neutral for now

 

[Shadow_x007x]

I agree with this thread, however I have tried to calculate Frieren's actual success in dodging the wires (if this was not really lightning, the results are not that interesting).

Frieren - Frieren dodges lightning

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[BadSystems]

While we have lightning standards, being that this isn't being treated as lightning I don't think they actually apply here. Especially because the profiles aren't asserting that the lightning of Frieren's spell is lightning but that it is electricity. And seeing as the magic system of Frieren is about visualization and we're shown across the series that people can summon and control things like water, wind, earth and fire, electricity being an exception makes little sense.

I think this should be fine as is for now as possibly rating, while the use of the speed calc provided being further proof of the supersonic end on the speed

Electricity can be the exception because for them to produce magic lightning with the speed of electricity, they’d probably need to be able to visualize the actual speed of electricity to begin with.

Also, I’m pretty certain that you can’t take electricity speed as a lowball for lightning that can’t be proved to be lightning (it’s never called electricity in the series) but I’m not 100% on this.

 

[Zabazab]

I agree with this thread, however I have tried to calculate Frieren's actual success in dodging the wires (if this was not really lightning, the results are not that interesting).

Frieren - Frieren dodges lightning

vsbattles.fandom.com

Supersonic combat speed consistency is wawesoem.....

 

[Duedate8898]

Electricity can be the exception because for them to produce magic lightning with the speed of electricity, they’d probably need to be able to visualize the actual speed of electricity to begin with.

Also, I’m pretty certain that you can’t take electricity speed as a lowball for lightning that can’t be proved to be lightning (it’s never called electricity in the series) but I’m not 100% on this.

We have no standard on electricity speed, there's been no real care given to it. So this ends up being a case by case thing. And while I understand we have strict standards for a reason, I don't think there's need for them here because at a certain level, a reader is expected to be able to make logical assumptions without outright statements or clear-case showings. If a character is using an attack that is named after lightning and resembles electricity, I think scaling the speed of that attack to electricity at least should be fine unless we get something to contradict it. And the basis of this CRT isn't that there is a contradiction in characters being below the listed speeds of electricity, it's that no one ever proved it was real electricity which I just don't think is important in this instance.

Mark me down as disagree.

 

[Shadow_x007x]

We have no standard on electricity speed, there's been no real care given to it. So this ends up being a case by case thing. And while I understand we have strict standards for a reason, I don't think there's need for them here because at a certain level, a reader is expected to be able to make logical assumptions without outright statements or clear-case showings. If a character is using an attack that is named after lightning and resembles electricity, I think scaling the speed of that attack to electricity at least should be fine unless we get something to contradict it. And the basis of this CRT isn't that there is a contradiction in characters being below the listed speeds of electricity, it's that no one ever proved it was real electricity which I just don't think is important in this instance.

Mark me down as disagree.

We have calculations that prove that he doesn't need hypersonic speed to dodge an electric attack.

Frieren - Frieren dodges lightning

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[BadSystems]

We have no standard on electricity speed, there's been no real care given to it. So this ends up being a case by case thing. And while I understand we have strict standards for a reason, I don't think there's need for them here because at a certain level, a reader is expected to be able to make logical assumptions without outright statements or clear-case showings. If a character is using an attack that is named after lightning and resembles electricity, I think scaling the speed of that attack to electricity at least should be fine unless we get something to contradict it. And the basis of this CRT isn't that there is a contradiction in characters being below the listed speeds of electricity, it's that no one ever proved it was real electricity which I just don't think is important in this instance.

Mark me down as disagree.

Lightning and electricity are pretty much the same thing, aren’t they? Since it hasn’t shown any qualifying properties, no speed should be used at all imo.

 

[Zabazab]

Bump

Ultimately, Judradjim: Destructive Lightning is a lightning spell. It is a magic which is only ever called lightning. If it were to be any particular speed, it'd be the speed of lightning (4.4e5 m/s).

The thing is, Judradjim meets zero of the criteria for lightning speed by wiki standards. It is magical, it is fired from a staff, it does not paralyze people, it does not conduct, it does not cause electrolysis. It cannot qualify for a speed of 4.4e5 m/s because it shows no properties of real electricity.

Consequently, there's also no reason to give Judradjim a "speed of electricity" rating either! Not only because it doesn't meet any criteria for it, but also because the speed of electricity is variable, depending on factors like voltage, amp, current... using a random calc of electricity's speed— which gets two completely different results— is just an attempt to salvage an undeserved higher speed from the spell.

And the final point: We have actual calcs of the characters reacting to Judradjim using multiple possible electricity speeds, and all of them are unsurprisingly significantly slower than the spell. In fact the only time in the manga where Judradjim is reacted to is by a top-tier blocking it with a thought-based barrier from multiple (10+?) meters away. Nobody scales directly to the spell's speed.

 

[BadSystems]

So true!

 

[Shadow_x007x]

Bump

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

We have no standard on electricity speed, there's been no real care given to it. So this ends up being a case by case thing. And while I understand we have strict standards for a reason, I don't think there's need for them here because at a certain level, a reader is expected to be able to make logical assumptions without outright statements or clear-case showings. If a character is using an attack that is named after lightning and resembles electricity, I think scaling the speed of that attack to electricity at least should be fine unless we get something to contradict it. And the basis of this CRT isn't that there is a contradiction in characters being below the listed speeds of electricity, it's that no one ever proved it was real electricity which I just don't think is important in this instance.

Mark me down as disagree.

The thing is, there is no universal electricity speed rating accepted in the wiki, the calc Arceus linked even has comments from CGM about it being invalid or something that should only apply to a very specific thing.

Agnaa·13/12/2023

If the speed of electricity in air can vary this much, how can we be confident that it can't go even slower than this?

Jasonsith·28/3/2019

Perhaps we need to further distinguish electric gun attack from lightning attack?

Furthermore, in the thread Arceus made about this, this is what DT said:

Electricity has the same scrutiny as lightning, as they are the same thing. Lightning is literally just electricity flowing through air.

Electricity currently has no speed value beyond that. Any speed value for electricity is in some way likely going to be a function of its parameters (voltage, amperage, resistance, distance covered etc.)
None of the electricity calcs I have seen to this point have convinced me of being generally applicable.
Edit: Let me say in advance that another factor to consider are how lightning is not flowing at a constant speed, and electricity is hence probably not either, so that we need far distance averages. Additionally, lightning has several stages (the glowing bit is usually the return stroke, not the actual expansion path). Assuming electricty is the same, one also has to make sure one separates those cleanly. (See here for some details, although we don't use those numbers exactly)

So, unless the spell meets the lightning requirements to get the rating that we currently give to lightning, then the spell isn't going to get any specific rating without its own calculation, so the only valid thing to use rn is the calculation in the op, which means that they would be downgraded to Supersonic+ (1,100.91m/s).

 

[Vzearr]

Agree with the OP.

 

[BadSystems]

bump? I was busy doing nothing in particular

 

[SeijiSetto]

bump? I was busy doing nothing in particular

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