Forces of Heaven and Hell in an endless skirmish. Round 1 Match 5. Noelle Holiday vs Judgement

[Peppersalt43]

Murder Reindeer : 0
Puzzle Game Boss : 0
Incon : 0

Stats equalized
Second key Noelle used
Fight takes place in Vatican City, 15 meters apart

Noelle looked though the library archive, being given only a reference list to find whatever materials she needed. Her phone rested on a nearby desk, a video call connecting to her friends back at home. Amongst the archives, she eventually found a book with a familiar mark, a pixelated red heart surrounded by 6 other hearts.

"Guys, I think I found it! Hang on..." the deer said, quickly rushing to show the book to her friends.
"About time! Alright, just turn on the recording function and flip through the pages. You should-" Susie replied through the phone though she was soon cut off.

White glowing chains appeared instantly, wrapping around the phone before being yanked away from her. And the culprit? The high prosecutor herself.

"No electronic devices in the library~" Judgement said before dropping the phone and then stomping it.
"Wow... Did she just step on us?" Berdly asked.
"Berdly, you horny little shit" Susie replied.

Back at the archives, chains appeared all over Noelle, holding and restraining her in place.

"Please, I just want to help my friend. I promise, I'll leave once I get that book!" she said.
"And how did you get this book? Did you sign your allegiance with the divine? Don't you know the saying..." Judgement taunted before setting the book alight "The road to hell is paved with good intentions".

The high prosecutor noticed flakes of ice growing over her chains which she couldn't get rid of, prompting her to back up. Noelle was beginning to grow desperate and with desperate times, comes desperate measures. A burst of light enveloped the room, covering everything in a layer of ice. Judgement barely survived the attack with the use of her chains which had frozen solid. The book she had burned was extinguished by this attack and turning around, her eyes met the deer's, now filled with rage.

"Give me the book" she said.

 

[LaserPrecision]

With stats equalized, I assume that's just their physical prowess while their abilities/techniques that have different statistics from normal are still the same amount stronger than they are normally? Or does special techniques/abilities also get equalized?

 

[Peppersalt43]

Or does special techniques/abilities also get equalized?

This. It's not like we're gonna add it to the profiles anyway

 

[LaserPrecision]

Hm, that does make things a bit more complex. I'll think about it for a bit before giving a verdict of any kind.

 

[LaserPrecision]

After some thinking, I'm think I'll have to vote for Judgement. With stats equalized neither really have to worry about having any physical advantage (Though I don't know if upscaling would be considered or not), so it's a non-factor here.

Noelle's win-con is freezing Judgement, however, I feel this is very unlikely. There are several reasons.

• Noelle is a nervous/hesitant fire, and is hardly even willing to use her strongest move, whereas Judgement would show no such hesitation. This isn't to say Noelle wouldn't fight at all, as it's made evident in the weird route that she is capable of fighting and is more bold than usual.
• Judgement is more agile. Being able to jump tens of meters very easily, and is also capable of outright flight which she could use to avoid Noelle's attacks easier than the other way around.
• Judgement's fire manipulation is a big problem. When she realizes Noelle's magical abilities revolve around ice, she's going to imbue her chains with fire that can burn flesh off in an instant. This also means she'd be harder to freeze if it ever came to that as her fire should very likely be capable of melting ice if entombed by it. However, that isn't very likely for reasons already listed and upcoming reasons
• Judgement's chains are a much more useful weapon. She doesn't need to make contact with them, can summon them from any direction, summon them around people to constrict them (Which Noelle would have trouble dealing with), summon them already attached/linked onto something and summon several at a time in very quick succession in an almost danmaku like fashion (I would like to say danmaku, but vs wiki's arbitrary limit on the number of projectiles needed for an attack to be danmaku means it's not necessarily danmaku)
• Finally, Judgement's range is wayyyyyy better. Noelle's limited to several meters, and Judgement's chains easily reach tens of meters. Meaning Judgement for the most part would be out of Noelle's range, and wouldn't even need to be in Noelle's range to win. Which is in-character, as she's shown to attack from far away. Making Judgement practically untouchable for Noelle. On top of that, if Noelle ever got close, Judgement could simply leap further away or fly away to stay out of her reach.

So I vote for Judgement, I think she handily takes this match.

 

[Peppersalt43]

Judgement's chains are a much more useful weapon. She doesn't need to make contact with them, can summon them from any direction, summon them around people to constrict them (Which Noelle would have trouble dealing with), summon them already attached/linked onto something and summon several at a time in very quick succession in an almost danmaku like fashion (I would like to say danmaku, but vs wiki's arbitrary limit on the number of projectiles needed for an attack to be danmaku means it's not necessarily danmaku)

Are you seriously arguing for Danmaku against a character in a spin-off of the verse used as an example for Danmaku? Noelle is a dodge god against projectiles and that should help against the range issue she has. Plus based on the story, this fight is technically happening in-doors

 

[LaserPrecision]

Are you seriously arguing for Danmaku against a character in a spin-off of the verse used as an example for Danmaku? Noelle is a dodge god against projectiles and that should help against the range issue she has. Plus based on the story, this fight is technically happening in-doors

I think Judgement's chains are a lot more problematic than you think. Not only can she summon chains from far away, but she can literally summon the chains RIGHT NEXT to or even ATTACHED to the opponent. Sure, dodging some chains she sees flying her way seems possible, but dodging a chain spawned literally right in front of you or already attached to you? Not much you can do. Especially if Judgement restrains her by either

A. Summoning a chain around her
B. Summoning a chain attached to her

Very hard to continue dodging projectiles when you're restricted.

Also while admittedly the battle does start in-doors, aren't the character's capable of leaving at any time? Or even just destroy the entire library in the midst of their battle? I also think that gives Judgement another advantage as she'd have more cover in the form of ice-covered book shelves (based on everything being covered in a layer of ice as per the story description) while she can just summon chains near Noelle no-matter where she takes cover.
I just think Judgement in general was a bad first match-up for Noelle in particular.

 

[Peppersalt43]

A. Summoning a chain around her
B. Summoning a chain attached to her

Wait what? Doesn't an outline appear before the chain appears?

 

[LaserPrecision]

Wait what? Doesn't an outline appear before the chain appears?

In gameplay, yea. Though I think we just assume that to be a game mechanic. Because in cutscenes it's shown to just appear. You can see cutscene examples in the weapon control description. There's no "warning" indicator like in the gameplay where it's needed because the attacks are so fast they cross the screen in one frame, making it literally impossible to dodge them without knowing where they're coming from (As The Helltaker takes more frames to cross a shorter distance).

 

[Peppersalt43]

In gameplay, yea. Though I think we just assume that to be a game mechanic. Because in cutscenes it's shown to just appear. You can see cutscene examples in the weapon control description. There's no "warning" indicator like in the gameplay where it's needed because the attacks are so fast they cross the screen in one frame, making it literally impossible to dodge them without knowing where they're coming from (As The Helltaker takes more frames to cross a shorter distance).

Wait, isn't that via her way higher attack speed and The Taker's very high reaction speed?

 

[LaserPrecision]

Wait, isn't that via her way higher attack speed and The Taker's very high reaction speed?

The Helltaker is just given Analytical prediction for it. Not reaction speed as he can't react to the attacks once they've been fired. Only before they have been.

What about her higher attack speed?

 

[Peppersalt43]

What about her higher attack speed?

Because in cutscenes it's shown to just appear.

I assume that's the explanation to why they just seemingly appear. Because it's way faster than everyone else perceives

 

[LaserPrecision]

I assume that's the explanation to why they just seemingly appear. Because it's way faster than everyone else perceives

I mean, they appear instantly even in the cutscenes where we see it. The only time they don't is when it's a game mechanic where if it wasn't there, it'd literally be impossible to win since the chains move across the entire screen faster than The Helltaker can react to and chain spam on top of that (It takes a couple frames for The Helltaker to move a small distance whereas the chains can traverse the entire screen in one frame. Which is why I was saying it's impossible to dodge once it's actually fired. It's the ONLY reason the flashing before the chains actually appear were added).

 

[Peppersalt43]

I mean, they appear instantly even in the cutscenes where we see it. The only time they don't is when it's a game mechanic where if it wasn't there, it'd literally be impossible to win since the chains move across the entire screen faster than The Helltaker can react to and chain spam on top of that (It takes a couple frames for The Helltaker to move a small distance whereas the chains can traverse the entire screen in one frame. Which is why I was saying it's impossible to dodge once it's actually fired. It's the ONLY reason the flashing before the chains actually appear were added).

Oh shit... Alright, I guess Judgement wins this one...

 

[LaserPrecision]

I sure think so. But I'll wait to see what others think. You can count my vote for Judgement right now, and you're free to vote too, but I may change my mind if a compelling argument is made in favor of Noelle

 

[Peppersalt43]

I sure think so. But I'll wait to see what others think. You can count my vote for Judgement right now, and you're free to vote too, but I may change my mind if a compelling argument is made in favor of Noelle

Yeah, @ZillertheBucko isn't here yet

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Reading this match for a bit, it seems like Judgment has this in the bag, IMO.

 

[Peppersalt43]

I sure think so. But I'll wait to see what others think. You can count my vote for Judgement right now, and you're free to vote too, but I may change my mind if a compelling argument is made in favor of Noelle

Hang on, just in case. How does she usually restrain people? Because based on the comics I've seen, she mostly just has a chain wrapped around her targets arms and waste.

This won't matter here but it will matter in a future fight

 

[LaserPrecision]

Hang on, just in case. How does she usually restrain people? Because based on the comics I've seen, she mostly just has a chain wrapped around her targets arms and waste.

This won't matter here but it will matter in a future fight

In her profile is every instance of her ever using the chains to restrain opponents. None of which she has shown to restrain the opponent's legs. Well, when she restrains Cerberus, it's hard to tell if their legs are restrained or not, because they're sitting down, but I presume she PROBABLY put the chain around their legs? They were standing up beforehand, and were only on the ground after being chained up (And the chains in that case seemed to cover a lot more area in general).

Though I assume she has enough common sense to restrain someone's legs if constricting their arms isn't enough.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

After some thinking, I'm think I'll have to vote for Judgement. With stats equalized neither really have to worry about having any physical advantage (Though I don't know if upscaling would be considered or not), so it's a non-factor here.

Noelle's win-con is freezing Judgement, however, I feel this is very unlikely. There are several reasons.

• Noelle is a nervous/hesitant fire, and is hardly even willing to use her strongest move, whereas Judgement would show no such hesitation. This isn't to say Noelle wouldn't fight at all, as it's made evident in the weird route that she is capable of fighting and is more bold than usual.

post-snowgrave Noelle is the opposite, but has only really fought on order or on the request for help against spamton Neo, but she is not hesitant in the spamton fight to use iceshock

• Judgement is more agile. Being able to jump tens of meters very easily, and is also capable of outright flight which she could use to avoid Noelle's attacks easier than the other way around.

Idk, Noelle's attacks kinda just spawn right on top of the opponent, and snowgrave is an aoe type thing, so I don't think dodging would really help much here

• Judgement's fire manipulation is a big problem. When she realizes Noelle's magical abilities revolve around ice, she's going to imbue her chains with fire that can burn flesh off in an instant. This also means she'd be harder to freeze if it ever came to that as her fire should very likely be capable of melting ice if entombed by it. However, that isn't very likely for reasons already listed and upcoming reasons

destroying her soul would probably just negate this

• Judgement's chains are a much more useful weapon. She doesn't need to make contact with them, can summon them from any direction, summon them around people to constrict them (Which Noelle would have trouble dealing with), summon them already attached/linked onto something and summon several at a time in very quick succession in an almost danmaku like fashion (I would like to say danmaku, but vs wiki's arbitrary limit on the number of projectiles needed for an attack to be danmaku means it's not necessarily danmaku)

Maybe, but it's not really that bad since it doesn't negate dura, and noelle can still put up ice shields

• Finally, Judgement's range is wayyyyyy better. Noelle's limited to several meters, and Judgement's chains easily reach tens of meters. Meaning Judgement for the most part would be out of Noelle's range, and wouldn't even need to be in Noelle's range to win. Which is in-character, as she's shown to attack from far away. Making Judgement practically untouchable for Noelle. On top of that, if Noelle ever got close, Judgement could simply leap further away or fly away to stay out of her reach.

maybe, but noelle only really needs one attack to land, the ice would slow her down due to freezing judgement + being durability negating

 

[ZillertheBucko]

of course, if this isn't weird route noelle, then it's perfectly viable to say that she'd just use ACTs and spare judgement (as noted on the weakness of the profile) which would make this a perfect match for her, actually

 

[LaserPrecision]

Idk, Noelle's attacks kinda just spawn right on top of the opponent, and snowgrave is an aoe type thing, so I don't think dodging would really help much here

From looking at a clip in the game, it does seem rather impossible to dodge as it spawns right on the enemy. Though you could unconventionally dodge this by being out of range which Judgement would try to maintain the entire match since her standard fighting method is launching chains at people from far away.

destroying her soul would probably just negate this

I don't recall Noelle ever destroying anyone's soul. In fact, her profile only states she should be able to. I presume that's because we haven't seen instances of her doing so? Otherwise I don't see the use of the word should being there. They just seem to freeze enemies and then leave them there. Though from what I remember, doesn't destroying the soul usually take several attacks?

Maybe, but it's not really that bad since it doesn't negate dura, and noelle can still put up ice shields

Putting up a shield is useless since Judgement can just spawn chains next to her, behind her, etc. and completely just avoid the ice shield. Or spawn chains on her, etc. An ice shield is practically useless here.

maybe, but noelle only really needs one attack to land, the ice would slow her down due to freezing judgement + being durability negating

I don't think ice would really slow them down since they can both fly and melt the ice unlike every opponent Noelle faces who has no way of escaping the ice. As for it being durability negation, isn't that just because of how freezing someone solid works? Kind of like fire is almost like durability negation depending on how hot it is?

of course, if this isn't weird route noelle, then it's perfectly viable to say that she'd just use ACTs and spare judgement (as noted on the weakness of the profile) which would make this a perfect match for her, actually

It would work very well given Judgement's weakness. Though she'd have to survive long enough. The Helltaker has to endure several rounds before the flattery works.

 

[Deleted member 16409]

From looking at a clip in the game, it does seem rather impossible to dodge as it spawns right on the enemy. Though you could unconventionally dodge this by being out of range which Judgement would try to maintain the entire match since her standard fighting method is launching chains at people from far away.

I don't recall Noelle ever destroying anyone's soul. In fact, her profile only states she should be able to. I presume that's because we haven't seen instances of her doing so? Otherwise I don't see the use of the word should being there. They just seem to freeze enemies and then leave them there. Though from what I remember, doesn't destroying the soul usually take several attacks?

Putting up a shield is useless since Judgement can just spawn chains next to her, behind her, etc. and completely just avoid the ice shield. Or spawn chains on her, etc. An ice shield is practically useless here.

I don't think ice would really slow them down since they can both fly and melt the ice unlike every opponent Noelle faces who has no way of escaping the ice. As for it being durability negation, isn't that just because of how freezing someone solid works? Kind of like fire is almost like durability negation depending on how hot it is?

Doesn't Noelle literally stun her opponent with IceShock? I mean, IIRC it makes opponents like really feel dizzy.

Prob after 1 IceShock she may put her to sleep with her move.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

I don't think ice would really slow them down since they can both fly and melt the ice unlike every opponent Noelle faces who has no way of escaping the ice. As for it being durability negation, isn't that just because of how freezing someone solid works? Kind of like fire is almost like durability negation depending on how hot it is?

It targets the soul

 

[Deleted member 16409]

Btw, Noelle's range should be far above than that because she freezed every puzzle possible, maybe 100 meters even.

 

[LaserPrecision]

It targets the soul

Ah. Then what's with the uncertainty of that on the profile? Unless they are uncertain if they can target the soul with every attack but some can?

 

[It_is_i_wyatt]

Ah. Then what's with the uncertainty of that on the profile? Unless they are uncertain if they can target the soul with every attack but some can?

probably because every single person in undertale/deltarune attacks the soul directly but noelle herself doesnt have a statement specifically for her or something, so its just scaling to any magic user ever

 

[Deleted member 16409]

What stops Noelle from IceShock + IceMist?

 

[Peppersalt43]

What stops Noelle from IceShock + IceMist?

Wait, what does that do?

 

[Deleted member 16409]

Wait, what does that do?

IceMist?
IIRC puts enemy to sleep like no problem at all.

 

[Peppersalt43]

IceMist?
IIRC puts enemy to sleep like no problem at all.

Gesture activated?

 

[Deleted member 16409]

Gesture activated?

Wdym?

I mean.
IceShock negates Judge
Then
Sleep Mist or Sealing.

 

[Peppersalt43]

Wdym?

I mean how does she cast it? Does she just think? Say something? Make a specific gesture?

 

[It_is_i_wyatt]

iirc she just kind of points in their general direction or something

 

[Peppersalt43]

iirc she just kind of points in their general direction or something

Well then Judgement's restraint is faster. She didn't even move to cast her chains.

It looks like a mind-activated ability

 

[Deleted member 16409]

I mean how does she cast it? Does she just think? Say something? Make a specific gesture?

She doesn't have to make something to IceShock iirc


Btw, she can Seal her with no sign of move if I think correctly.

 

[Peppersalt43]

Btw, she can Seal her with no sign of move if I think correctly.

What move is that?

 

[Deleted member 16409]

What move is that?

IceShock

 

[LaserPrecision]

What stops Noelle from IceShock + IceMist?

I'm not aware of the specifics of ice mist, but on the profile it explicitly states it puts tired enemies to sleep. I assume "tired" is when a character is low on stamina. In which case, it wouldn't be useable until wayyyyyy later since Judgement's stamina is pretty decent

 

[LaserPrecision]

As for the sealing, isn't that done through a ring and by freezing the opponent? I covered that earlier. Judgements flames would allow her to melt her way out.