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For Twenty-Seven Years.... - Pennywise (Movies) Rework.

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Gewsbumpz_dude

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Introduction
Hello.

Off-site, I decided to do some powerscaling, specifically for the Pennywise that appears in the IT movies, given Halloween is just around the corner. Since the movie Pennywise page was one of the first few pages that I was truly proud about, I thought it would have been nice to revamp this, admittedly, not so good page.

Here is the rewrite, and here is the current page.

Notable Changes
The page in its entirety was revised, and is loaded with scans, but there are some specific changes that I feel like need some explanation.

1. There is no Deadlights key.
I feel as if a key for the Deadlights here isn't necessary. They aren't like in the book where they are some transcendent true form that resides in an outerversal world, they exist on the same plane as Pennywise himself, and are pretty much the same entity (Moreso than the books). Plus, the Deadlights themselves don't have a lot to go off of, not enough for their own entire key. Not like it will impact the profile all that much, since everyone will be using the clown avatar in vs threads.

2. The Shapeshifting.
Penny's shapeshifting branches out into numerous other powers, even the current page reflects this, so I thought it would be a good idea to list them all out underneath Shapeshifting instead of just clumping them all in the reasoning for Shapeshifting. That way, we can have explanations for these abilities.

Pennywise's shapeshifting also grants him numerous other abilities, as already demonstrated on the current page, so I thought it would be best to list them all out underneath Shapeshifting instead of just clumping them all in the reasoning for Shapeshifting. That way, we can have explanations for each ability without worrying about making a singular ability a novel long.


3. Missing Tiers.
Pennywise in this revised page is just straight up Wall level, with no sign of 10-C or the "Varies" tiers. Simply put, Pennywise's physical strength doesn't vary with his Shapeshifting (At least, when it comes to tiers below 9-B. Obviously his spider form would be stronger than his base clown form). When he takes the form of a human, he doesn't suddenly become 10-B, like most of the stuff listed in his Attack Potency was done in his base form, which is a human clown. As for the leper, Eddie was only able to overpower Penny in this form because he was being weakened by Eddie's lack of fear.

4. The Weaknesses.
The weaknesses are formatted very differently than what you might be used to. I did this, because I thought it was a better way to format weaknesses, especially with weaknesses with a lot of nuance to them, and each have their own cons and whatnot. This way, we can get full explanation on Pennywise's weaknesses and how they work.

5. Title.
Small change to the title. Just rename it to "Pennywise (2000s Movies)", because the 2017 film isn't the only film this version of Penny has.

That is all I have to say, cya.

Votes
Agree: 2 (LephyrTheRevanchrist, Roachman40)

Disagree:

Neutral:


wot.png
 
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One thing I take issue with...

Where are the references for names, age, Origin, and Classification?

In fact... where are the references at all?
 
Probably should have mentioned this in the OP.

Abilities and resistances that are being removed and/or replaced;
  • Heat and Water Manipulation. Being replaced with Adhesive Manipulation, because the "black liquid that burns whatever it touches" is most likely black tar.
  • Telepathy. I forgot the original reasoning behind it, nor was I able to find anything to show that he has this ability.
  • Soul Absorption. Based off fan speculation, and off something that might just be Penny's illusions.
  • Fire Manipulation. He doesn't actually manipulate fire in the scene this is referencing, he just used a lighter.
  • BFR. I don't think telekinetically flinging people into other rooms would count as BFR, but there might still be some basis for this ability, with him teleporting Stan away from the rest of the club, and deeper into his lair.
  • Resistance to Soul Manipulation. The original reasoning for this back when this was proposed, was that the Deadlights can be considered an abnormal kind of soul (The Deadlights are never actually referred to as Pennywise's soul, though). It isn't good reasoning, but it is better than the incoherent blurb of text that is currently on the page.
possibly Soul Manipulation (The Deadlights, which are separated from the main body, might be its real self and they hold some sort of connection with it)
I don't think I need to say much else on this
 
First, let me compliment on the good job, I was just looking at it the other day thinking it would have used some polishing, and this is exactly what I'm talking about.
Now, I'm leaving here some adjustments I'd make.

  • Leave gender as unknown only, as the section isn't about physical sex, so It's shapeshifting doesn't affect it.
  • I'd give it Longevity rather than Immortality, as it isn't confirmed that it can live actually forever.
  • I believe Multilocation fits better than Duplication
  • Enhanced Senses and Empowerment lack scans (I can see why he has them, but some scenes would be nice) and the Droop face feat needs the timestamp to be a little earlier, as it links to the very end of the video.
  • I feel like every feat listed under Perception Manipulation could just stay under Illusion Creation, as it is very likely that those things were never real, and the fortune cookies are the main example. The same goes for everything related to Paul Bunyan, because the aftermath of the first scene leads me to believe it was all fake, not only from what Richie says twice, but also because of the lack of environmental damage.
  • Adhesive Manipulation for creating tar looks a bit redundant to me, ok that tar is sticky, but I feel like keeping it under creation is fine.
  • Same for Paralysis and Status Effect, the ability is already covered by Mind Manipulation, and also Deconstruction because of Biological Manip
  • What is thread manip due for?
  • I'm not really sure about disease manipulation, rather than a resistance it could merely be to his nature of shapeshifting, intangible monster and such, or rather just plot conveniency, after all we don't give it to every character that lives in the sewers. Could also very well be a case of it never getting into contact with infected stuff, or else. Like, even eating people alone could cause diseases to normal humans.
  • Manipulating Gravity also doesn't make you outright resistance to it, at most you can counter it if your own manipulation is superior. Same for pain, just because it doesn't flinch (or not always) doesn't mean it is immune to it, it can very well be just stamina, and switching resistance to pain to stamina is something we've been doing for many profiles so far.
  • Remove the "Immensely" for stamina, as it doesn't fit the standard ratings and we try to keep things uniform between profiles.
  • It's Lifting Strength should be Likely Class 25, as the most recent and accepter jaw-ripping calc puts it at Class 10 and most of the dismembering feats occur off screen, making it unknown whether or not LS was the main method. Ripping off limbs is Class 25, but he also did it on children, which should be somewhat more fragile than adults, but I believe it could work either way.
  • I find the third bullet point under arrogance to be unnecessary, not only it is purely speculative, but it also irrelevant to the profile itself. Same goes for the "unless in a 1v1 match".
  • Could you reduce the amount of blue text? I believe that linking only one or a few relevant words makes everything more pleasant to the eye to read and helps distinguishing the links from each other.
Telepathy. I forgot the original reasoning behind it, nor was I able to find anything to show that he has this ability.
I guess is from the scenes where it makes people hear voices, which in my opinion can work either way as sound, perception or telepathy.

  • Soul Absorption. Based off fan speculation, and off something that might just be Penny's illusions.
I liked the concept, but I agree, it can also very well be the usual mind fuckery.

It could work to me.

  • Resistance to Soul Manipulation. The original reasoning for this back when this was proposed, was that the Deadlights can be considered an abnormal kind of soul (The Deadlights are never actually referred to as Pennywise's soul, though). It isn't good reasoning, but it is better than the incoherent blurb of text that is currently on the page.
Agreed, we shouldn't mention souls unless the prime material does it, and how to handle vs matches is a matter unrelated to indexing a profile.


Very last two things, I promise. Why did you remove It breaking down its own head from regeneration? I can see that it doing it on its own could lead to the fact he might not be able to recreate it if the damage were to be dealt by an external, but it might still be in the realm of possibilities.
And could you elaborate more on Immortality type 4? I don't really see it, or maybe it can be an instance of Avatar Creation, which it already has.
 
Leave gender as unknown only, as the section isn't about physical sex, so It's shapeshifting doesn't affect it.
That isn't really stated anywhere on the format page, but okay.
I'd give it Longevity rather than Immortality, as it isn't confirmed that it can live actually forever.
Sure.

I'm more tempted to add both, like "Longevity or Immortality", since both work here and it is never elaborated on if it is one or the other.
I believe Multilocation fits better than Duplication
What's exactly the difference here?
and the Droop face feat needs the timestamp to be a little earlier, as it links to the very end of the video.
My bad.
I feel like every feat listed under Perception Manipulation could just stay under Illusion Creation, as it is very likely that those things were never real, and the fortune cookies are the main example. The same goes for everything related to Paul Bunyan, because the aftermath of the first scene leads me to believe it was all fake, not only from what Richie says twice, but also because of the lack of environmental damage.
In general it is hard to determine what is and isn't real with Pennywise, with very few exceptions like him killing people.

As for the Paul Bunyan thing, we hear Pennywise laughing in that scene, which leads me to think this is Pennywise. The believe to be fake thing isn't exclusive to his "illusions", as this was able to work on Pennywise himself.
Adhesive Manipulation for creating tar looks a bit redundant to me, ok that tar is sticky, but I feel like keeping it under creation is fine.
A lot of powers of Pennywise overlap with each other. If we are gonna go down that road, we are gonna be here for a long ass time.
Same for Paralysis and Status Effect, the ability is already covered by Mind Manipulation
But there is more to mind hax than the Deadlights (Refer to above). The Deadlights definitely fall under Paralysis Inducement.
all we don't give it to every character that lives in the sewers
But Pennywise has been living in the nasty ass sewer for at least a couple of decades, and we see it nom on people that are covered in graywater, like Patrick.
Manipulating Gravity also doesn't make you outright resistance to it, at most you can counter it if your own manipulation is superior.
But Pennywise has shown to be able to ignore gravity without the need of needing to remove it from himself, like what he did with Bev and the Deadlights.
Same for pain, just because it doesn't flinch (or not always) doesn't mean it is immune to it, it can very well be just stamina, and switching resistance to pain to stamina is something we've been doing for many profiles so far.
Fair, I guess.
Remove the "Immensely" for stamina, as it doesn't fit the standard ratings and we try to keep things uniform between profiles.
Fair.
It's Lifting Strength should be Likely Class 25, as the most recent and accepter jaw-ripping calc puts it at Class 10 and most of the dismembering feats occur off screen, making it unknown whether or not LS was the main method. Ripping off limbs is Class 25, but he also did it on children, which should be somewhat more fragile than adults, but I believe it could work either way.
I didn't know that jaw-ripping calc existed, sorry.
Very last two things, I promise. Why did you remove It breaking down its own head from regeneration? I can see that it doing it on its own could lead to the fact he might not be able to recreate it if the damage were to be dealt by an external, but it might still be in the realm of possibilities.
I didn't remove it on purpose.
And could you elaborate more on Immortality type 4? I don't really see it, or maybe it can be an instance of Avatar Creation, which it already has.
The clown we all know of is just an avatar for the Deadlights, and we can see that the Deadlights can create physical bodies for itself (I.E. In the linked scan, where it made that spider Pennywise appear in the cave with the Losers Club). What you said above could also go along with it, with it deconstructing its avatar, only to rebuild it in the next 27 years.
 
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That isn't really stated anywhere on the format page, but okay
We've had long debates on this topic, but even the wording itself points at gender, not sex.

I'm more tempted to add both, like "Longevity or Immortality", since both work here and it is never elaborated on if it is one or the other.
Generally we keep only one, and even characters olde than this Pennywise don't receive Immort 1 unless clearly stated.

What's exactly the difference here?
Because rather than creating a copy, Penny's avatar itself is spread in multiple places, either physically or not.

In general it is hard to determine what is and isn't real with Pennywise, with very few exceptions like him killing people.
As for the Paul Bunyan thing, we hear Pennywise laughing in that scene, which leads me to think this is Pennywise. The believe to be fake thing isn't exclusive to his "illusions", as this was able to work on Pennywise himself.
I see, but I was thinking more to the various consequences. Many aftermaths show the environment being just fine after the characters snap out of it. It's perfectly possible that Penny reality warps everything back, or it's effects disappear along with the ability.
At least I'd try to note that those things might be illusions.

A lot of powers of Pennywise overlap with each other. If we are gonna go down that road, we are gonna be here for a long ass time.
It's not a matter of overlapping in general, but to keep it as minimum. Another line only for adhesive feels redundant to me.

But there is more to mind hax than the Deadlights (Refer to above). The Deadlights definitely fall under Paralysis Inducement.
I still think that the mind manipulation paragraph conveys the idea well enough without taking it away anything from it. If really really needed, put paralysis next to all the mind manip-related abilities, or make indent points like you do for shapeshifting.

But Pennywise has been living in the nasty ass sewer for at least a couple of decades, and we see it nom on people that are covered in graywater, like Patrick.
Yes, but at that point we could give it to a thousand other characters. Diseases are also odd, because they don't affect all creatures (not even all humans) in the same way. Pennywise's biology is also all fumbled even when incarnate. It's one of those things you kind of give for granted or let it slip in fiction, and give if specifically stated.

But Pennywise has shown to be able to ignore gravity without the need of needing to remove it from himself, like what he did with Bev and the Deadlights.
That's still a form of gravity manipulation, but nothing indicates it could resist were someone to apply a higher gravity on it, or if it were to be transported somewhere else.

I didn't know that jaw-ripping calc existed, sorry.
No need to be sorry, no one is all knowing.

The clown we all know of is just an avatar for the Deadlights, and we can see that the Deadlights can create physical bodies for itself (I.E. In the linked scan, where it made that spider Pennywise appear in the cave with the Losers Club). What you said above could also go along with it, with it deconstructing its avatar, only to rebuild it in the next 27 years.
I know, what I'm saying is that it isn't proper resurrection, because we're still talking abou the puppet, which sometimes regenerates by itself, other times jusy gets recreated.
It would be like giving resurrection to all Avatar Creators only because they can make multiple or another avatar.
 
The feat of "breaking the spine" is poorly calculated.

Calc:
T3 Pedicle: The pedicle is in the T3 vertebrae is roughly cylinder shaped.It is on average 8.7 mm wide (Or tall for the volume of a cylinder), and 16.4 mm tall (Or diameter for a cylinder). turning the diameter into radius I get a volume of 183.779 cc. Since there are are two pedicles, 2 x 183.779 = 367.558 cc


T3 Vertabral body: The verabral body is cylinder shaped. When finding the average of the anterior and posterior height means of the vertebrae, I get 16.9 mm. It's mean diameter is 24.34 mm.Finding the radius and puting this into a calculator gives me 786.353 cc.

Energy to Break Vertebrae

183.779 + 786.353 x 51.6 = 40759.5938 joules
Calculating it as if it were a cylinder would give this:

(16.4/2)^2 * pi * 8.7 = 1837.79400324 mm^3, which are 1.83779400324 cc, the user made a mistake with the conversion from mm^3 to cc.

Now for the T3 vertebral body:

(24.34/2)^2 * pi * 16.9 = 7863.53336369 mm^3 which is 7.863533363690002 cc.

He even made the final calculation wrong, he had to put a parenthesis between both volume values.

Without parentheses (incorrect): 1.83779400324 + 7.863533363690002 * 51.6 = 407.59611557 J

With parentheses (correct): (1.83779400324 + 7.863533363690002) * 51.6 = 500.588492134 J (9-C)

There's also the issue of ripping jaws off, but I think it's already been discussed here. So the rest I guess looks good, but I think Pennywise should be 9-C, he doesn't have any feat that would prove him to be 9-B. Except if we talk about their giant forms.
 
The feat of "breaking the spine" is poorly calculated.

Calc:

Calculating it as if it were a cylinder would give this:

(16.4/2)^2 * pi * 8.7 = 1837.79400324 mm^3, which are 1.83779400324 cc, the user made a mistake with the conversion from mm^3 to cc.

Now for the T3 vertebral body:

(24.34/2)^2 * pi * 16.9 = 7863.53336369 mm^3 which is 7.863533363690002 cc.

He even made the final calculation wrong, he had to put a parenthesis between both volume values.

Without parentheses (incorrect): 1.83779400324 + 7.863533363690002 * 51.6 = 407.59611557 J

With parentheses (correct): (1.83779400324 + 7.863533363690002) * 51.6 = 500.588492134 J (9-C)

There's also the issue of ripping jaws off, but I think it's already been discussed here. So the rest I guess looks good, but I think Pennywise should be 9-C, he doesn't have any feat that would prove him to be 9-B. Except if we talk about their giant forms.
You would have to bring that up on a calc thread. Until the accepted calculation is revised, Penny would indeed scale to 9-B here.
 
Okay, could you send me the thread where I should comment on this topic, please? In the meantime, I'll put the repaired calculation in a blog.
Simply create one on the Calc Discussion forum explaining the situation

To get your calc evaluated in the meantime, post it here once the blog is made
 
It's not a matter of overlapping in general, but to keep it as minimum. Another line only for adhesive feels redundant to me.
I mean, if it qualifies, it qualifies for the ability.

I know, what I'm saying is that it isn't proper resurrection, because we're still talking abou the puppet, which sometimes regenerates by itself, other times jusy gets recreated.
That still falls under the confines of type 4, albeit moreso towards reincarnation. The Deadlights are still creating new bodies for itself.

It can also probably give him some form of type 8.
 
I mean, if it qualifies, it qualifies for the ability.
Not really, it's more like an irrelevant side effect of creation, the tar's stickiness isn't even a particular factor.
By this logic, you could add another dozen of abilities only because they remotely pertain to something Penny does.

That still falls under the confines of type 4, albeit moreso towards reincarnation. The Deadlights are still creating new bodies for itself.
It can also probably give him some form of type 8.
Not really, because Penny and its other incarnations are just puppets of the real self. It would be reincarnation if the Deadlights were a separate being altogether, or if the Deadlights themselves would be able to return after being destroyed.
However, type 8 works.

If Pennywise gets resurrected by the Dead Lights that will be either Type 8 or 9
Not type 9 because the Deadlights still exist in our world.
And as above, type 4 wouldn't work because Pennywise IS the Deadlights, it's conceptually similar to one having their soul, mind, essence whatever stored somewhere and live as long as it remains intact.
It does work for type 8 indeed, but the clown and its shapes are just proxys maneuvered by the Deadlights.
 
Not really, because Penny and its other incarnations are just puppets of the real self. It would be reincarnation if the Deadlights were a separate being altogether, or if the Deadlights themselves would be able to return after being destroyed.
However, type 8 works.
I've been discussing this off-site with my brother, and yeah, I probably should have just argued type 8 from the start.
 
After discussing with Gews irl (we're brothers, to avoid confusion), I believe when Pennywise is stated to be an avatar, it means that the Deadlights created an entity to work through. Not just a manifestation of themself, not literally the deadlights. They function separately, Pennywise can channel the power of the Deadlights (not something avatars have to do, the original being just uses powers through the avatar, the avatar doesn't have to physically go to the source and channel the power), and relies on the Deadlights to exist.

I believe Saman is accurate when he says "puppet". It has its own abilities and needs to sustain itself by eating (not something avatars typically have to do), but works for the Deadlights.

Type 8, no type 9. Not really type 4 either since it's not an ability of Pennywise, it's an ability of The Deadlights.

"Not really, it's more like an irrelevant side effect of creation, the tar's stickiness isn't even a particular factor.
By this logic, you could add another dozen of abilities only because they remotely pertain to something Penny does." This is what most abilities are. Creating and manipulating something, if he showcases creating and manipulating adhesives, you can give him adhesive manipulation. Him having creation doesn't mean we can't give him these other abilities. It just overlaps, that happens all the time on VSBW, it's nothing new.
 
This is what most abilities are. Creating and manipulating something, if he showcases creating and manipulating adhesives, you can give him adhesive manipulation. Him having creation doesn't mean we can't give him these other abilities. It just overlaps, that happens all the time on VSBW, it's nothing new.
I mean that the tar being sticky isn't even a special property of it, at most it's property is burning.
If Pennywise were to use the tar to trap people, or climbs walls, snatch objects, whatever use for which being sticky is relevant, then ok, but just being sticky by itself shouldn't be listed as a separate ability.
 
I mean that the tar being sticky isn't even a special property of it, at most it's property is burning.
If Pennywise were to use the tar to trap people, or climbs walls, snatch objects, whatever use for which being sticky is relevant, then ok, but just being sticky by itself shouldn't be listed as a separate ability.
The ability was to create tar, though. Sure, it's not a major ability, but it's still something Pennywise can do. It should be indexed somehow. He may not have used it to trap anybody, but he could & would've trapped Bill & Richie if they didn't go through the doors. It's sticky when it flows down the walls, and it flows extremely slowly, as a sticky substance would.

It's hot tar, which sticks to things and burns them. The primary threatening property being the heat doesn't mean we dismiss that it is a sticky substance. It should be indexed that Pennywise can create burning, sticky tar.
 
To be fair, we don't even know if it's actually tar or just a mysterious black liquid. You could give it the same for being able to create blood, which is also quite dense. Really, you could come up several other minor abilities and clog up the profile.

Anyway, to not keep beating a (un)dead horse, what about settling this tar argument by indexing it as both heat and adhesive? To not just pointlessly occupy another line of text.
 
Okay, before I edit the OP, the people that agree with this CRT are;

  • LephyrTheRevanchist
  • Roachman40
  • SamanPatou
  • ShionAH
  • TheShape03
  • Serlock_Holmes

Is anyone missing?
 
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