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Floro Sprout page creation CTR

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Sorry for bringing this up after so long but we were close to finishing this thread anyway and it annoys me when things like this are left unfinished
Edit: while I'm here, I want to mention that fusionism is a Base Dimentio feat, not a Super feat, so it should be moved to Base Dimentio's feats
 
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Can you summarise the arguments here along with what the conclusions are so far please?
 
Antvasima said:
Can you summarise the arguments here along with what the conclusions are so far please?
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Yeah
I'm arguing that it should be mentioned in Dimentio's profile that he can only mindhax not robotic people by making a verbal deal with them, and he does not need to mention the brainwashing as part of the deal. At first I argued that Floro Spouts should have their own page; this was rejected. However nearly everyone has agreed with the fact that it should be mentioned in his profile that he needs a deal to mindhax, with the exception of robots who he can overwrite their code near instantly. Apart from that, I just now mentioned that fusion is a Base Dimentio feat and should be moved to his feats instead of supers feats. No response from the community about that yet.
 
Drhorrible100 said:
Yeah
I'm arguing that it should be mentioned in Dimentio's profile that he can only mindhax not robotic people by making a verbal deal with them, and he does not need to mention the brainwashing as part of the deal. At first I argued that Floro Spouts should have their own page; this was rejected. However nearly everyone has agreed with the fact that it should be mentioned in his profile that he needs a deal to mindhax, with the exception of robots who he can overwrite their code near instantly. Apart from that, I just now mentioned that fusion is a Base Dimentio feat and should be moved to his feats instead of supers feats. No response from the community about that yet.
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Okay.

@Dino_Ranger_Black @GyroNutz

What do you think about this?
 
Dimentio can mindhax without a "deal" though. To say otherwise would be to invalidate the entire ending where Dimentio mindhaxes Luigi.

Iirc Dimentio only ever showed Fusionism once he obtained the Chaos Heart. Though I guess it's more fitting if it's base Dimentio's ability.
 
Thank you for the information.
 
GyroNutz said:
Dimentio can mindhax without a "deal" though. To say otherwise would be to invalidate the entire ending where Dimentio mindhaxes Luigi.

Iirc Dimentio only ever showed Fusionism once he obtained the Chaos Heart. Though I guess it's more fitting if it's base Dimentio's ability.
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No, he implanted the seed earlier. Floor Sprouts can be used on an incapacitated person, we know this from the cragnons, so when Dimentios pretend suicide attack BFRed Luigi he implanted the seed, (he was found unconscious by peach meaning Dimentio had time to implant it) but that wouldn't matter in vs battles because once an enemy is incapacitated they won anyway so I didn't mention it. As for your second point, yeah he used fusionism when he got the Chaos Heart, but it is base Dimentio still so at least should be moved to 2c feats.
 
Also if this gets accepted then Dimentio's battles should be reevaluated, at least the Goku one. A lot of his stomps are opening mindhaxes so they should be reevaluated too. Because sadly as much as I don't like doing this to my favorite antagonist, this is a downgrade technically.
 
Drhorrible100 said:
No, he implanted the seed earlier. Floor Sprouts can be used on an incapacitated person, we know this from the cragnons, so when Dimentios pretend suicide attack BFRed Luigi he implanted the seed, (he was found unconscious by peach meaning Dimentio had time to implant it) but that wouldn't matter in vs battles because once an enemy is incapacitated they won anyway so I didn't mention it.
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I mean, what's your point here? Of the three instances you've shown, only one indicates that Dimentio makes a deal before using the sprouts, and that's a not-so-canon bad ending. The O'Chunks one is speculation, as is the "using the sprout on a KO'd opponent counts as a deal". None of this is evidence suggesting that this is a legitimate restriction of the sprouts, but moreso explanations as to why all of the floro sprout usages may count as "deals".

Btw there's an edit button underneath your posts, please dont triple post
 
GyroNutz said:
I mean, what's your point here? Of the three instances you've shown, only one indicates that Dimentio makes a deal before using the sprouts, and that's a not-so-canon bad ending. The O'Chunks one is speculation, as is the "using the sprout on a KO'd opponent counts as a deal". None of this is evidence suggesting that this is a legitimate restriction of the sprouts, but moreso explanations as to why all of the floro sprout usages may count as "deals".

Btw there's an edit button underneath your posts, please dont triple post
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It just doesn't make any sense why he didn't just mindhax with a snap previously, instead of making a deal and sprouting Mario's seed like he did in the game over. Also the special game overs are perfectly canon, idk why you think they aren't. And no, it's not speculation that using a sprout on an incapacitated person counts as a deal, because it's not. They were originally intended to brainwash cragnons and it's not until Dimentio gets his hand on them that they become haxxy. If the Floro Sapiens could just snap their fingers and brainwash someone then they would have done that to Mario and co, or even the cragnons in the village. But no, they take them to their home before they can brainwash them. Dimentio's upgraded version needs a deal. The original ones do not. He used the original one on Mr. L, the upgraded ones on Mario and chunky boi
 
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Drhorrible100 said:
It just doesn't make any sense why he didn't just mindhax with a snap previously, instead of making a deal and sprouting Mario's seed like he did in the game over. Also the special game overs are perfectly canon, idk why you think they aren't. And no, it's not speculation that using a sprout on an incapacitated person counts as a deal, because it's not. They were originally intended to brainwash cragnons and it's not until Dimentio gets his hand on them that they become haxxy. If the Floro Sapiens could just snap their fingers and brainwash someone then they would have done that to Mario and co, or even the cragnons in the village. But no, they take them to their home before they can brainwash them. Dimentio's upgraded version needs a deal. The original ones do not. He used the original one on Mr. L, the upgraded ones on Mario and chunky boi
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Bump
 
Drhorrible100 said:
It just doesn't make any sense why he didn't just mindhax with a snap previously, instead of making a deal and sprouting Mario's seed like he did in the game over. Also the special game overs are perfectly canon, idk why you think they aren't. And no, it's not speculation that using a sprout on an incapacitated person counts as a deal, because it's not. They were originally intended to brainwash cragnons and it's not until Dimentio gets his hand on them that they become haxxy. If the Floro Sapiens could just snap their fingers and brainwash someone then they would have done that to Mario and co, or even the cragnons in the village. But no, they take them to their home before they can brainwash them. Dimentio's upgraded version needs a deal. The original ones do not. He used the original one on Mr. L, the upgraded ones on Mario and chunky boi
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He has mindhaxed without deals, you used contrived explanations to claim that Dimentio mindhaxing O'Chunks and Luigi were done through deals. It's entirely false that mindhaxing an incapacitated person fits the definition of a 'deal' and you've done nothing to prove that. The Floro Sapiens don't have the ability to plant floro sprouts with a snap like Dimentio does - their methodology is different so they're not relevant here. Also, special game overs are explicitly not canon - it is clearly impossible for both Mario and Luigi to be mindhaxed and for Super Dimentio to be defeated in the canon storyline. That's like saying that Mario joining the Shadow Queen's side as her minion is also canon despite it going against the ending.

No new evidence has been presented of Dimentio requiring a deal to mindhax - Occam's Razor would support the opposite.
 
Gyro seems to make sense to me.
 
GyroNutz said:
Also, special game overs are explicitly not canon - it is clearly impossible for both Mario and Luigi to be mindhaxed and for Super Dimentio to be defeated in the canon storyline. That's like saying that Mario joining the Shadow Queen's side as her minion is also canon despite it going against the ending.
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Just because that specific scenario isn't canon doesn't mean the ability isn't. In the timeline that ends up happening, they don't take the deal. But that's irrelevant. Dimentio is shown to have that restriction, and you can't say game overs aren't canon because that removed a ton of lore. A goomba can kill you by walking into you. Is that not canon because it causes a game over?

GyroNutz said:
Luigi were done through deals. It's entirely false that mindhaxing an incapacitated person fits the definition of a 'deal' and you've done nothing to prove that.
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Did you even read anything I sent? He didn't need a deal to mindhax Luigi because he just pushed a seed in his head when he was unconscious. I did not say it "counted as a deal" and if I did then I corrected myself later. It doesn't count as a deal, it circumvents the restriction which is a big difference that you just ignored.
GyroNutz said:
Occam's Razor would support the opposite.
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What's that
GyroNutz said:
contrived explanations to claim that Dimentio mindhaxing O'Chunks and Luigi were done through deals.
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Contrived how? Its obvious that what he was saying with o chunks was the start of a deal, and he didn't need to brainwash Luigi because he literally just needed to push a seed in his brain because he was unconscious
GyroNutz said:
The Floro Sapiens don't have the ability to plant floro sprouts with a snap like Dimentio does - their methodology is different so they're not relevant here.
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It is relevant. He didn't do a snap with Luigi when Luigi was unconscious, he just used the version of the sprout that the Sapiens use. Which makes way more frickin sense than the gigantic plothole at the end of him not mindhaxxing Mario, Bowser, and Peach with a snap and just winning. Dimentio is a genius, I very much doubt he wouldn't have thought of that. Regardless of whether I'm right or wrong, Dimentio NEEDS some form of restriction for him not mindhaxxing everyone at the end to make sense
 
Occam's Razor means that if something isnt explained thst the most simple solution is generally the one to go with.
 
DaReaperMan said:
Occam's Razor means that if something isnt explained thst the most simple solution is generally the one to go with.
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Thats kind of dumb lol. (No offense to you, thanks for explaining it) I'd rather have a correct complicated profile than a wrong simple profile. Besides summaries can be given, EX "Dimentio needs a deal to mindhax people that are conscious and aren't robots"
Which is simple. People only have to deal with the complicated aspect if they want to argue over it
 
Not with profiles mind you.

But here, Occam's Razor would apply when something contrived, like this. Things like dimentio kind of just... talking with O chunks meaning it's a deal wouldn't be right due to Occam's Razor.
 
Welp, that makes sense apart from the fact that Dimentio could have just snap mindhaxxed everyone at the end but didn't. Makes no sense if he can just snap and brainwash everyone, THEN remove everything from existence
 
That just means mindhaxing isn't fully in-character for Super Dimentio, and he also thought he literally couldn't be beaten.
 
Bump. I also want to say that if we go by your logic that "just because something doesn't happen in the main storyline then its not a valid feat, even though its been shown in game" then you are suggesting removing all non genocide route profiles from characters in undertale, as the genocide route is the implied official storyline, you are also suggesting removing all "eyes of heaven" feats from jojo characters such as Dio Over Heaven because its not in the main storyline, etc, etc. Just because a feat doesnt happen in the official story, doesn't mean its invalid
 
What are the staff conclusions here so far? Have Gyro and Medeus accepted anything?
 
Okay. Should we close this thread then?
 
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