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Fixing Errors with Sonic and The End's Abilities

Everything12

Everything12

The Heavenly Fount
VS Battles
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Keeping this simple, The End has
Perception Manipulation and Conceptual Manipulation (Type 1) (Stated in an official interview by WoG to be the embodiment of death, with its form changing depending on what someone perceives death to be like)
Click to expand...
Looking at the sources their doesn't seem to be more context than this. I'd question why this is Type 1 Conceptual Manipulation instead of Type 2, but more importantly than that I have to question why this is Conceptual Manipulation at all. They aren't altering the concept of death at all, their appearance is altered in other's vision because of being the embodiment of death, which isn't Conceptual Manipulation.

Second, Sonic has
Enhanced Non-Physical Interaction and Conceptual Manipulation (Type 1) (Super Sonic can interact with and harm entities such as The End)
Click to expand...
Interacting and harming an Abstract Existence has always been just Non-Physical Interaction, so I don't know why this is any different here.

Abstract Existence (Type 1) and Nonexistent Physiology (Nature Type 3; Aspect Type 5) (The End refers to itself as the all-consuming void, the abyss, both infinite and nothing with the intent of bringing everything to neutrality/nothing. It is inevitable, continuing to exist even with the destruction of its current incarnation, and stopped taking damage from any source once its health was low enough)
Click to expand...
- The End
 
The End doesn’t change concepts but rather it is an embodiment of one. CM could probably be removed from it in that case. Now as for why it’s type 1 and not 2, because The End being capable of wiping the whole cosmology would imply it to be independent of the reality it governs, otherwise it would be suicide.

Now as for Sonic having CM, if the abstract being harmed is a concept then I don’t see why that wouldn’t be CM alongside NPI. Either way, he’s affecting a concept.
 
Foxthefox1000 said:
Get ready to be here for a while.
Click to expand...
Can we move on from the "Hurrr durrr it's a Sonic thread so trouble's coming" mentality? Everybody argues on this platform in defence of their shit, let's not act like Sonic fans are ******* drug lords here

I agree with CM being removed from The End's page, that was an oversight on my part and kinda just slipped by me. Waiting for the rest.
 
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ShadowWarrior1999 said:
Now as for Sonic having CM, if the abstract being harmed is a concept then I don’t see why that wouldn’t be CM alongside NPI. Either way, he’s affecting a concept.
Click to expand...
That is not how we have treated it. Interacting with an Abstract Existence is not treated the same as manipulating a concept. No more than hurting someone whose physiology is purely soul-based is Soul Manipulation. These things are solely treated as feats of interacting with normally uninteractable beings and not of manipulating the metaphysical components they are made of.
 
Yeah, The End shouldn't really have concept manipulation, I think I even said so in the thread it was added. I agree with Shadow on the rest
 
Agreed. Harming abstracts also isn't concept manip the same way harming ghosts isn't soul manip, too, so that's gotta go.
 
I agree this is pretty straightforward.
Someone being the embodiment of death and changes form based on another perception is also not CM at all. For it to be CM, you have to change what actually means for the verse.
 
Oh, while we're here, we should remove Self-Destruction from The End's page as well.

I had misunderstood the moment while playing it for the first time, but that "self destruct" was probably moreso like a last-ditch attempt at destroying the planet or something (hence Sonic's surprise and Sage's panic)
 
Everything12 said:
That is not how we have treated it. Interacting with an Abstract Existence is not treated the same as manipulating a concept. No more than hurting someone whose physiology is purely soul-based is Soul Manipulation. These things are solely treated as feats of interacting with normally uninteractable beings and not of manipulating the metaphysical components they are made of.
Click to expand...
If it’s more accurate to have it just as NPI, then fine. I think however it should still be noted if the NPI can affect concepts.
 
Considering most of the supporters that agreed with CM agree with its removal, and we have three staff, I guess this should be fine to apply.
 
Honestly after the Beerus EE upgrade I legit want to know if The End’s perception stuff affecting real life people is worth anything.

Boundless range perception hax?
 
The OP is correct and I agree, but I have a question, and if it deerail the thread I am sorry in advance, Solaris and The End pretty much would wipe out the entire cosmology and transform everything in the verse into nothingness if them weren't stopped, right? As this scan showns in the case of Solaris, and that would likely apply to The End as well since it would consume all existence, as it knows about Illumina's existence since it saw Sonic's mind and considering that its purpose it is to bring the death/the end of all creation, it doesn't seem far fetched that it would erase Illumina as well, this would be Conceptual Manipulation (mostly Concept Destruction) to some degree for these two?
 
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Enryu_The_Red_Tower said:
The OP is correct and I agree, but I have a question, and if it deerail the thread I am sorry in advance, Solaris and The End pretty much would wipe out the entire cosmology and transform everything in the verse into nothingness if them weren't stopped, right? As this scan showns in the case of Solaris, and that would likely apply to The End as well since it would consume all existence, as it knows about Illumina's existence since it saw Sonic's mind and considering that its purpose it is to bring the death/the end of all creation, it doesn't seem far fetched that it would erase Illumina as well, this would be Conceptual Manipulation (mostly Concept Destruction) to some degree for these two?
Click to expand...
Generally destroying all existence feats do not include the concepts that are the foundation of existence unless specifically mentioned. As for Illumina, it seems too much assumption and not enough solid evidence for me to accept such a interpretation.
 
I'll wait two more days to see if @Elizhaa has anything to add. If nothing has changed during that time then the changes can be made.
 
You did not attach any evidences for the downgrade, rather simple “counter-arguments” for the said abilities.
Now I may question, why should I simply believe your arguments that have no basis evidences at all?
 
More than a downgrade it's more a rewording. And concept manip is definitely wrong, it's just a high end NPI but nothing else.
 
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