First LN profile Upgrade for MGK

[Dereck03]

Resistance to Order via Resistance to Time Stop

Agree: @Dereck03

Let it be noted that I argued for it to gain resistance to Law Manipulation because Anos was not affected by the "Law" that stated that the flow of time in the bubble created by the power of time order was stopped, your tally makes it seem as if I argued that the time stop to include order would be conceptual and what I said is "Law" Resistance not conceptual resistance.

But of course, if we assume that all powers coming from the order should be taken as powers of the same nature as their origin then that would be fine.

 

[Dog3352]

I agree. This doesn't seem to fit the intention described on the Power Modification page.

Power Modification is able to change the function of an ability in some shape or form, such as turning superhuman strength into superhuman speed. It should be noted that users must be able to interfere with the nature of the ability itself for this to be listed in their profile.

He didn't do any of those things, he just sealed someone's power in an item.

The Power Modification comes from the fact that Venuzdonoa manages to destroy reason, which the order of destruction is not capable of.

I agree, this doesn't appear sound to me. Particularly that "this is not a new reality with different laws" it is explicitly described as a spell that freezes time in a certain area.

"It was a greater magic spell to stop time."

The comparison between Digimon and order makes no sense, since Digimon are more like spells and information, since the gods' abilities are using order directly, not that the abilities have order, but that they literally are order.

Having information on the power's mechanism (be it a spell or something like the information in the MGK spell) ≠ The ability itself being information (Gods abilities are order)

 

[Deagonx]

I don't believe that Order being the source of your power means that every instantiation of your abilities should be interpreted as an "Order" based effect, wherein the concept itself must be resisted/overcome in order to defeat any given ability that a God uses. I understand your argument, but I don't see it that way, personally.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

The Power Modification comes from the fact that Venuzdonoa manages to destroy reason, which the order of destruction is not capable of.

I've heard this multiple times now, but I have yet to see a source for it. It may not have been stated to destroy reason, but there doesn't seem to be an indication that Anos is the reason it can suddenly destroy reason. As far as I'm concerned, "destroying" reason is a reasonable (heh) extension of the order of "destruction".

Let it be noted that I argued for it to gain resistance to Law Manipulation because Anos was not affected by the "Law" that stated that the flow of time in the bubble created by the power of time order was stopped, your tally makes it seem as if I argued that the time stop to include order would be conceptual and what I said is "Law" Resistance not conceptual resistance.

But of course, if we assume that all powers coming from the order should be taken as powers of the same nature as their origin then that would be fine.

I'm aware, if the distinction really matters then I'll rename that category.

 

[Dog3352]

I don't believe that Order being the source of your power means that every instantiation of your abilities should be interpreted as an "Order" based effect, wherein the concept itself must be resisted/overcome in order to defeat any given ability that a God uses. I understand your argument, but I don't see it that way, personally.

That's actually LITERALLY that, I just don't know if the parts about it were translated, but that's exactly how the order works.

 

[Dereck03]

The Power Modification comes from the fact that Venuzdonoa manages to destroy reason, which the order of destruction is not capable of.

Venuzdonoa was created with the order of destruction and Anos' eye that destroys reason. Anos modified the order of destruction and limited that destruction in the form of the sword and his eye which is a chaotic destruction more powerful than the order of destruction by limiting both destructions, merging them and thus creating Venuzdonoa, clearly he modified the functioning of 2 uncontrollable chaotic powers by modifying and transforming them.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Venuzdonoa was created with the order of destruction and Anos' eye that destroys reason. Anos modified the order of destruction and limited that destruction in the form of the sword and his eye which is a chaotic destruction more powerful than the order of destruction by limiting both destructions, merging them and thus creating Venuzdonoa, clearly he modified the functioning of 2 uncontrollable chaotic powers by modifying and transforming them.

You agree with power modification then

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Both of the above claims would need sources, thank you. It will make things a lot easier for anyone else who wants to evaluate things here.

 

[Dereck03]

I don't believe that Order being the source of your power means that every instantiation of your abilities should be interpreted as an "Order" based effect, wherein the concept itself must be resisted/overcome in order to defeat any given ability that a God uses. I understand your argument, but I don't see it that way, personally.

I mean, their powers are based on their order, their powers come from the order, so.... I think we're going against what's been said in the series again. I'm just saying.

 

[Dog3352]

I've heard this multiple times now, but I have yet to see a source for it. It may not have been stated to destroy reason, but there doesn't seem to be an indication that Anos is the reason it can suddenly destroy reason. As far as I'm concerned, "destroying" reason is a reasonable (heh) extension of the order of "destruction".

Right, Venuzdonoa suddenly gains the most stolen power from the verse all of a sudden, even though the "only one" capable of doing so is Anos.

 

[Deagonx]

I mean, their powers are based on their order, their powers come from the order, so.... I think we're going against what's been said in the series again. I'm just saying.

I understand their order powers their abilities, but a time stop spell powered by a Type 1 conceptual being shouldn't by default require Type 1 concept resistance or such. This approach would imply that they are literally incapable of casting spells weaker than the totality of their being.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Guys, please. These arguments will go nowhere if no sources are provided for the sake of evaluation. Without that, this would just be a shouting match.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

I understand their order powers their abilities, but a time stop spell powered by a Type 1 conceptual being shouldn't by default require Type 1 concept resistance or such. This approach would imply that they are literally incapable of casting spells weaker than the totality of their being.

I already did posted the scan dude

 

[Dereck03]

I understand their order powers their abilities, but a time stop spell powered by a Type 1 conceptual being shouldn't by default require Type 1 concept resistance or such. This approach would imply that they are literally incapable of casting weak spells.

But my objection to this is that clearly eugo specifies that he created a world with the law of time which specifies that time will not flow. Thus just law stuffs.

 

[Deagonx]

I read the arguments, I read the scans, and I disagree. I don't want to go in circles about this indefinitely.

 

[Tatsumi504]

Unfortunately I have to disagree, even without those scans I would be inclined to think that different orders are generally the same "type" of concept but the scans, for me at least, seal it.

I agree, I do not think that the evidence provided is enough to indicate that the Gods can manipulate fate in order to dictate how events will play out.


I agree. This doesn't seem to fit the intention described on the Power Modification page.

Power Modification is able to change the function of an ability in some shape or form, such as turning superhuman strength into superhuman speed. It should be noted that users must be able to interfere with the nature of the ability itself for this to be listed in their profile.

He didn't do any of those things, he just sealed someone's power in an item.


I agree, this doesn't appear sound to me. Particularly that "this is not a new reality with different laws" it is explicitly described as a spell that freezes time in a certain area.

"It was a greater magic spell to stop time."

Guess I'll make my refutations here.

He didn't turn himself into order. The Order of the world was rewritten converting him into magic and magic is Overseen by Order which is what makes him a part of it.

Except it is clearly known. Nosgalia is the God that gives birth to Gods. Turning a human into a God goes against his Order, hence he made him a lesser part of it which was in line with his Order to destroy the Demon King.

Gods are so bound to Order that their actions cannot deviate from it. A God cannot do what is against their Order. For example, Nosgalia cannot attack Anos directly because his Order is to give birth to Gods.
Their actions are entirely bound to and decided by their Order to the point that Gods don't possess emotions, they don't have a mind, they are nothing, just Order.

In what way is the second scan vague? It directly says his Order is a fragment of that of the world. Jerga directly became a fragment of the worlds Order (Magic- the spell <Aske> to be exact).

I fail to see how a scan that literally says "The fate determined by the Gods" is referring to Law manipulation. "From my perspective" "it seems" none of that matters when it literally mentioned Fate.

"At no point does it say Order and Fate are the same". What is Order and what are Gods?
The beings who maintain Order- the beings who embody that Order- the beings that are the highest Order of natural law. That is a God. A God's power comes from Order, Gods are Order and their power is Order. If Gods have fate manipulation, that fate is Order.

The Order of Destruction is the end (MGK version of yogiiri)- it is death and destruction. As I've outlined above, a God's power cannot go against or do anything outside the jurisdiction of their Order.

Anos took away the Order of Destruction, turned it into something that destroys logic. The power to destroy logic isn't something the Order of destruction is capable of. So yes, the power of the Order of destruction was modified

A God's power is Order. This isn't giving resistance to the mechanisms of an ability, that mechanism is their ability. A God has no power of their own that isn't Order.

Eugo la Raviaz uses alters Order to stop time. Time stop isn't a separate application of Order, it is Order. Time wasn't just stopped. Concepts, Laws, Fate were altered directly to make time stop. To resist that requires directly resisting the other 3.

 

[Dereck03]

Ok, good luck ignoring the context proved. The only thing I will say is that I will drag you all in the face when the LN leads to the part of all the feats that I couldn't use because they are from the WN (despite being translated by JP speakers and not MTL) and aren't translated in the actual LN.

@EldemadeDityjon @Tatsumi504 I will leave this thread before I lose patience and I become the next one reported for drama.

 

[Deagonx]

Why are you quoting at me a post that I already read?

 

[Dog3352]

I understand their order powers their abilities, but a time stop spell powered by a Type 1 conceptual being shouldn't by default require Type 1 concept resistance or such. This approach would imply that they are literally incapable of casting spells weaker than the totality of their being.

The stop in time itself is the order of time. In the moments when Eugo reverses time, stops time, accelerates time, or something, this is all using the order of time, so his abilities are conceptual, but as I said, I don't know if there is a translation for this. Although we also have Eugo's scythe, which has temporal manipulation even though it's not in Eugo's hands, in addition to being apparently "superior" or something to Revide, which is capable of also messing with the order of time.

 

[Deagonx]

Ok, good luck ignoring the context proved.

You're kidding me, right? This is the kind of thing we just had a whole RVR drama to prevent. Dereck, you're a staff member, you can't accuse someone of ignoring context just because they did not reach the same conclusion as you. We are trying to prevent these threads from becoming messes, please do not add to it.

 

[deonment]

Digimon use information manipulation as a basis for magic, but not every character who resists a magical attack also resists information manipulation

I, what, no, this is just just a bad whataboutism due to the fact that magic is mostly used to manifest phenomena that exist independently of the magic itself, magic is just used to summon a fireball, a bolt of lightning, or whatever, it isn't actually ever used to do something directly, like manipulating another Digimon's digicore or what have you.
I am just mainly here to clear this up because god knows I am not ready to jump into this debate rn, so just, please, don't use Digimon for your argument here as it is far too complex a verse for examples using it to be made by non-knowledgeable.
Just keep Digimon out of the thread tyvm.

 

[Dereck03]

You're kidding me, right? This is the kind of thing we just had a whole RVR drama to prevent. Dereck, you're a staff member, you can't accuse someone of ignoring context just because they did not reach the same conclusion as you. We are trying to prevent these threads from becoming messes, please do not add to it.

I may have a different point of view than you since I have in my mind the whole previous concept of the WN which is hard not to use, so abilities like CM 1 for the whole order, Fate stuffs, Law stuffs which were clearly translated and accepted without any problem and now were rejected by insufficient evidence makes me a bit angry.

I rephrase my sentence, it's not that you are ignoring the context, it's that there is still not enough context to accept the abilities (just look how you could easily see that the order was fate with the WN scan), I take it back but I maintain that I will rub it in everyone's face when it's translated and I will laugh.

I'll say it again, it's hard not to argue when I have in mind the whole context of the WN.

And you can let me get past this tantrum since I'm usually the calmest person and have no problems with my behavior but if this tantrum is enough to report me then do so and I will gladly accept a demotion, punishment or whatsoever.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

What the hell is even happening here anymore?

Let's just wait for more staff. Nobody is budging on anything, that much is obvious, so obviously some new opinions are needed.

 

[Tatsumi504]

Why are you quoting at me a post that I already read?

Because your replies don't actually show you did. Let's take a look at your replies shall we?

I do not think that the evidence provided is enough to indicate that the Gods can manipulate fate in order to dictate how events will play out.

The scan I sent has a God saying "The flow of time is unalterable. The fate determined by the Gods is absolute-that is why fate cannot be changed". A direct counter that they do in fact manipulate fate. Also, fate Manipulation isn't only the ability to dictate how events play out.

He didn't do any of those things, he just sealed someone's power in an item.

He changed the Order of destruction from something that causes death and destruction to something that destroys logic to manifest what the user desires. You saying he merely sealed it in a castle points to not reading my reply at all

I agree, this doesn't appear sound to me. Particularly that "this is not a new reality with different laws" it is explicitly described as a spell that freezes time in a certain area.

I understand their order powers their abilities, but a time stop spell powered by a Type 1 conceptual being shouldn't by default require Type 1 concept resistance or such. This approach would imply that they are literally incapable of casting spells weaker than the totality of their being.

You are still maintaining the stance of Order powering their abilities. It doesn't power them, their abilities are Order. Eugo la Raviaz doesn't have the ability of Order then separately possessing time stop separately. He stopped time by manipulating the Order of time. A God when using his powers says "Obey Order the words of a God is absolute", "This is the Order of the World", "There shall be no escaping this Order" etc https://imgur.io/a/WuSSmXB
Pointing out that he cast a greater magic spell doesn't discredit it being a feat of manipulating Order directly. It's a story that uses magic, even the Gods are not exempt from that. Manipulating Order requires actually casting magic. Anos own time manipulating spell involves actually utilizing the laws and concepts which govern time.

---

Also, because of the experience of few days ago where you told me you didn't respond to my argument because you felt it was something I was ready to drag on which actually led to two of my arguments not being evaluated. So this time, I'm quoting you just to make sure before the thread gets clogged.

 

[Deagonx]

I read your post before making my evaluation, Tatsumi.

 

[Elizhaa]

I would be fine with gods' conceptual manipulation being type 1 upscaling from Jerga's statement that his order is supposing less than them.
On the fate point, I saw many of the related statement that fate will be Option 3 and 4
since they were made by a god (Eugo) and narrative like part about the Keepesr.

 

[Godsatoshi23]

I missed Dereck, sorry about that. I know Elizhaa said other things were fine, which is why I put them down as agree for fate manipulation and power mod. They did not elaborate on whether or not they thought all order was type 1.

You are not clearly being fair here you know.

In your source downgrade thread . Maverick_zero_X even didn't agreed just said he was leaning towards agree and he commented only once on the first page and Never came back to elaborate after all the discussion happened and you still put his vote on agree.

 

[Deagonx]

You are not clearly being fair here you know.

In your source downgrade thread . Maverick_zero_X even didn't agreed just said he was leaning towards agree and he commented only once on the first page and Never came back to elaborate after all the discussion happened and you still put his vote on agree.

That's enough of that. Do not make comments like this in the future, it doesn't add to the discussion and just poisons the well with an accusation that doesn't matter and needn't be discussed. This is your only warning.

 

[Godsatoshi23]

That's enough of that. Do not make comments like this in the future, it doesn't add to the discussion and just poisons the well with an accusation that doesn't matter and needn't be discussed. This is your only warning.

Okay, I was just saying Fuji was not being fair when it's come to our threads.

Won't be discussing this further.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Okay, I've updated Elizhaa's position on the matter of type 1 CM.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Type 1 CM

Agree: @Deagonx, @Dereck03, @Elizhaa
Disagree: @Theglassman12, @Qawsedf234
Neutral: @DarkGrath

Power Modification

Agree: @Elizhaa
Disagree: @Deagonx
Neutral:

Fate Manipulation

Agree: @Dereck03, @Elizhaa
Disagree: @Theglassman12, @Deagonx, @DarkGrath
Neutral: @Qawsedf234

Resistance to Order via Resistance to Time Stop

Agree: @Dereck03
Disagree: @Deagonx, @Theglassman12
Neutral: @Qawsedf234, @Elizhaa, @DarkGrath

A lot of people here have said things along the line of "if (x) is true, then I could accept ( y )", which I've listed as being neutral. Those in the neutral section should probably elaborate more on their opinions if they are willing. With all that said, more input is probably needed, except for maybe resistance to order.

Don't see why Law Manipulation is not here. OP was about Anos Removing (Laws and Concepts) Order of destruction from the world. People disgreeing with time stop Arguments has nothing to do First Paragraph. Law Manipulation should be added alongside with Conceptual Manipulation.

Anyway I don't want to drag this thread forever

Anos - Likely Power Modification, Fate Manipulation, Law Manipulation, Conceptual Manipulation (Type 1. Removed Order of Destruction from the world and modified into to his own spell which destroys Reason)

Note this Fate Manipulation is not from what was argued for every order being fate. Anos needs to remove Providence which protects the gods to even modify or remove the order from the world. Jergas fate was not even able to cut by Evansmana which can cut fate of others narratively stated. So don't mix with this Order being fate this was a different reason. Anyone who are disagreeing probably never read the OP.

Power Modification as dereck explained he did turned concepts of destruction into logic manipulation. Well he also lost interest in this thread. One agree and one disagree, dereck was probably agree with this my his reply so i am proposing likely rating.

Venozdonor - Additional ability Fate manipulation. Already explained in the Current profile alone there is a scan for Venozdonor being able to destroy fate. Additionally Venozdonor is stronger and more haxed weapon than Evansmana which already has fate manipulation. So Venozdonor should get Fate Manipulation.

Anyway I will drop the time stop Arguments. Let's just get this over with.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Don't see why Law Manipulation is not here. OP was about Anos Removing (Laws and Concepts) Order of destruction from the world. People disgreeing with time stop Arguments has nothing to do First Paragraph Law Manipulation should be added alongside with Conceptual Manipulation.

No, law manipulation is universally agreed upon. That was never a point of contention. It's also separate from the CM 1 arguments, so please do not lump them together.

To be clear, I think we all accept order as law manip and CM 2, it's just everything beyond that (CM 1, fate hax, etc) that's become a debate. So let's not devolve into debating things that have already been accepted lol

Anos - Likely Power Modification, Fate Manipulation, Law Manipulation, Conceptual Manipulation (Type 1. Removed Order of Destruction from the world and modified into to his own spell which destroys Reason)

Note this Fate Manipulation is not from what was argued for every order being fate. Anos needs to remove Providence which protects the gods to even modify or remove the order from the world. Jergas fate was not even able to cut by Evansmana which can cut fate of others narratively stated. So don't mix with this Order being fate this was a different reason. Anyone who are disagreeing probably never read the OP.

As discussed before, "providence" isn't fate. It is, by definition, protection granted by the gods or by nature. You have done nothing to prove that providence is in fact fate. Power modification isn't applicable because Anos isn't taking control of someone else's power and modifying it; He's just making use of an ambient effect produced by an inert being. It's like someone taking the air around them or some other natural phenomena and manipulating it or adding onto it., that isn't really power modification.

I have no idea why the Jerga thing is even relevant.

Venozdonor - Additional ability Fate manipulation. Already explained in the Current profile alone there is a scan for Venozdonor being able to destroy fate. Additionally Venozdonor is stronger and more haxed weapon than Evansmana which already has fate manipulation. So Venozdonor should get Fate Manipulation.

Anyway I will drop the time stop Arguments. Let's just get this over with.

Yeah this is fine, idk why this wasn't originally in the profile though, it does just straight up say veuz can destroy fate :v

 

[Fixxed]

As discussed before, "providence" isn't fate. It is, by definition, protection granted by the gods or by nature. You have done nothing to prove that providence is in fact fate.

Mhmhmh i dont know where you get that. Fate and providence essentially is same, just fate is more general and "blind" but providence is good thing

The two word is same meaning thats why that two was a synonym

Thats why when order is introduced as providence, ivis/eugo say "God's fate...." because he is providence it self

In this you the one that must prove providence isnt fate

Providence=Fate:

God conceived as the power sustaining and guiding human destiny

a manifestation of God's foresightful care for his creatures
type of:
circumstances, destiny, fate, fortune, lot, luck, portion
your overall circumstances or condition in life (including everything that happens to you)

providence
1 (noun) in the sense of fate
Definition
God or nature seen as a protective force that oversees people's lives

Synonyms: fate, fortune, destiny, God's will More Synonyms of Providence

God, especially when conceived as omnisciently directing the universe and the affairs of humankind with wise benevolence.

The Stoic school disagreed with those who believed that the world was ruled by blind fate; they did not deny that a controlling power exists, but, as everything happens according to a benevolent divine plan, they preferred to call this power providence.
The belief in the existence of a blind and inexorable fate can lead to a conflict with the belief in a benevolent providence.

Fate is blind; providence has eyes. Fate is blind, a thing that must be; it is just an arrow shot from a bow, that must fly onward, but hath no target. Not so, providence; providence is full of eyes. There is a design in everything, and an end to be answered; all things are working together, and working together for good.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

As discussed before, "providence" isn't fate. It is, by definition, protection granted by the gods or by nature. You have done nothing to prove that providence is in fact fate. Power modification isn't applicable because Anos isn't taking control of someone else's power and modifying it; He's just making use of an ambient effect produced by an inert being. It's like someone taking the air around them or some other natural phenomena and manipulating it or adding onto it., that isn't really power modification.

I have no idea why the Jerga thing is even relevant.

1. Protection granted to whom? That doesn't fits in with narrative. Gods Exists because they are Providence & Bound to order. It's clearly refering to their destiny. There is nowhere it stated Providence means Divine protection. Gods are bound to order until they die that's why even self destruction is not possible to them. Nosgalia clearly mentioned no one can kill gods they are bound to Order. Jerga is also bound to order hence his fate was tied to order. Anos literally states He specifically need Venozdonor to remove Jegra from Existence because he is bound to order which exists forever.
2. Dereck already explained. I also already explained. Logic Manipulation is specific ability of Venozdonor and Law Manipulation is common abilities for gods. Logic Manipulation ability came after Anos converted god of destruction into his spell. As a NOVEL reader I am Giving the context of the verse. Don't go by your logic. You still haven't read one chapter of the series. Dereck even Clarified there will be even more explanation comes in future so I hope we comprise it to Likely rating. Fuji I am trying to reach a neutral ground. So i request you do the same. Not just ignoring what supporters are saying. Especially Dereck is a staff who bas been worked on the verse for many years. He even has rejected most of the CRTs until now. He doesn't have to lie about something trust his words for once. We already have enough context currently to give power modification for converting Law Manipulation into Logic Manipulation. I am not even asking for Solid rating. Likely doesn't hurt anyone with current context alone.

Venuzdonoa was created with the order of destruction and Anos' eye that destroys reason. Anos modified the order of destruction and limited that destruction in the form of the sword and his eye which is a chaotic destruction more powerful than the order of destruction by limiting both destructions, merging them and thus creating Venuzdonoa, clearly he modified the functioning of 2 uncontrollable chaotic powers by modifying and transforming them.

Also this seems Dereck agrees with Power Modification anyway. His reply clearly supporting it.

Elizha agreed with modification, Daegonx Disagreed. Dereck argument are in favour of Agreeing. So I request you to compromise 2:1 rating to likely.

Anyway I will wait for few more hours until Tatsumi comes online and apply the changes if other staff aren't willing to evaluate.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Anyway I will wait for few more hours until Tatsumi comes online and apply the changes if other staff aren't willing to evaluate.

I'll respond to the other stuff soon but no changes should be applied yet. More staff have been called, and multiple things still need to be decisively decided on. Have some patience.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Mhmhmh i dont know where you get that. Fate and providence essentially is same, just fate is more general and "blind" but providence is good thing

The two word is same meaning thats why that two was a synonym

Thats why when order is introduced as providence, ivis/eugo say "God's fate...." because he is providence it self

In this you the one that must prove providence isnt fate

Providence=Fate:

Fate is one potential meaning of providence. However, we would not assume that all instances of providence are fate by default, so can you bring evidence of that? Because we do not take "providence" devoid of context as fate manipulation.

1. Protection granted to whom? That doesn't fits in with narrative. Gods Exists because they are Providence & Bound to order. It's clearly refering to their destiny. There is nowhere it stated Providence means Divine protection. Gods are bound to order until they die that's why even self destruction is not possible to them. Nosgalia clearly mentioned no one can kill gods they are bound to Order. Jerga is also bound to order hence his fate was tied to order. Anos literally states He specifically need Venozdonor to remove Jegra from Existence because he is bound to order which exists forever.

Being bound to order and existing because you are providence has nothing to do with fate. Like, idk what to say here, nothing you mentioned is even remotely ties to fate.

Dereck already explained. I also already explained. Logic Manipulation is specific ability of Venozdonor and Law Manipulation is common abilities for gods. Logic Manipulation ability came after Anos converted god of destruction into his spell. As a NOVEL reader I am Giving the context of the verse. Don't go by your logic. You still haven't read one chapter of the series. Dereck even Clarified there will be even more explanation comes in future so I hope we comprise it to Likely rating. Fuji I am trying to reach a neutral ground. So i request you do the same. Not just ignoring what supporters are saying. Especially Dereck is a staff who bas been worked on the verse for many years. He even has rejected most of the CRTs until now. He doesn't have to lie about something trust his words for once. We already have enough context currently to give power modification for converting Law Manipulation into Logic Manipulation. I am not even asking for Solid rating. Likely doesn't hurt anyone with current context alone.

Can you show me where Anos modified the order of destruction to alter what it can do? Because as of now, the only context given is that of Anos taking the order of destruction leaking from Abernyu and using it to create Venuzdonoa. That is, again, taking an ambient phenomena - not someone's own power - and manipulating it, which we do not consider power modification. Also, Dereck has claimed that the method used was fusing his EoD with the order of destruction, so in that case it would just be fusionism.

Going to sleep now, so don't expect further responses.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Fate is one potential meaning of providence. However, we would not assume that all instances of providence are fate by default, so can you bring evidence of that? Because we do not take "providence" devoid of context as fate manipulation.


Being bound to order and existing because you are providence has nothing to do with fate. Like, idk what to say here, nothing you mentioned is even remotely ties to fate.

You still not explained why they can't die even if they killed themselves. Why need to exists forever just because bound to Order

Why Jerga Clearly unaffected by fate manipulation just because he was bound to order

Can you show me where Anos modified the order of destruction to alter what it can do? Because as of now, the only context given is that of Anos taking the order of destruction leaking from Abernyu and using it to create Venuzdonoa. That is, again, taking an ambient phenomena - not someone's own power - and manipulating it, which we do not consider power modification. Also, Dereck has claimed that the method used was fusing his EoD with the order of destruction, so in that case it would just be fusionism.

Already explained why Logic Manipulation is specific ability of Venozdonor. You are ignoring the context show me proof for any one character or thing other than Venozdonor using that ability in the verse. You seem to act like Logic Manipulation can be used by others in the verse.

Also Power modification ability 2 staff input is enough if i am correct it's not even big abilities. Only thing currently needs to discussed is Providence part.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

You still not explained why they can't die even if they killed themselves. Why need to exists forever just because bound to Order

Why Jerga Clearly unaffected by fate manipulation just because he was bound to order

That's just immortality and resistance to fate manipulation.

Already explained why Logic Manipulation is specific ability of Venozdonor. You are ignoring the context show me proof for any one character or thing other than Venozdonor using that ability in the verse. You seem to act like Logic Manipulation can be used by others in the verse.

Then can you just post scans of this so we can move on? If you have already and I overlooked it, just link to the original post.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

That's just immortality and resistance to fate manipulation.

Immortality gained by tide to Providence that's clearly how destinies works.

Anos removed the character from existence who had Resistance to fate manipulation so how that's not fate manipulation?

Then can you just post scans of this so we can move on? If you have already and I overlooked it, just link to the original post.

Not to my burden because me and dereck already explained why Logic Manipulation is only specific ability of Venozdonor.

 

[Fixxed]

Fate is one potential meaning of providence. However, we would not assume that all instances of providence are fate by default, so can you bring evidence of that? Because we do not take "providence" devoid of context as fate manipulation.

Bruh the author literally write "god's fate..." after introduced order as providence. Providence in here is literally fate