First LN profile Upgrade for MGK

[Tatsumi504]

Yeah nothing in that single scan remotely proves that Gods all have fate hax via order. Way to go on taking a vague statement and reaching so far with that. Also saying that people are coping a lot via headcanon isn’t going to help you convince anyone to take your side in a discussion, just saying.

Dark seems to disagree with you as they said that the statement is literal.

The flow of time is inalterable. The Fate determined by the Gods is absolute- that is why fate cannot be overturned

Not only is the statement literal, it generalizes it to all Gods so I honestly can't see where you are coming from saying it's vague. That along with Nosgalia saying

The Gods have Ordained the extermination of the Demon King. The Child of God shall soon be born to seal thy demise. There is no escaping this Order

Once again it's generalized to all Gods and it doesn't just stop there. It goes ahead to say that this ordained fate is Order. In good faith, I assume you didn't see the scans so here they are
If you still don't see it then I honestly have nothing else to add (as far as I can recall currently). I can't remember exactly where every relevant statement across 4 different novels will be.

I'm among the very few people who have actively sent scans to back up my arguments and as proof of that, everyone other than you actually sees it. I believe I have every right to call out headcanon that's based on "muh interpretation" when evidence to the contrary is right there. I also do not recall saying anyone is coping so I don't know where is that coming from.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Stop the cap, Dark never said the statement is literal. In fact, she seemed pretty sure that fate manipulation was invalid in her first post. Please at least try to represent staff opinions accurately, thanks.

 

[Dereck03]

Fate Manip is fine.

If you wonder why, it is because of the following.

Every order has a determined destiny that cannot be overturned by anything or anyone. The order of destruction was only fated to destruction, as much as Aberneyu was tired of only destroying things the same order was determined to continue with the destruction of all things. That is why Anos transformed the order of destruction into Venuzdonoa and limited the order so that all that was limited to be simply destroyed already lost that limitation due to the disruption of the order and the alteration of its determined purpose.

The order of order (Nosgalia) is determined to obedience, its orders are absolute, every living being has to follow its order because they are destined to only follow the order, Anos is an exception to this order and that is why Shin cut Nosgalia's throat so that he could not express his order.

The order of time is destined to make the flow of time unchangeable, any change made to any change that affects the flow of time will be reverted to its previous state by the guardian of time. And also here is shown what @DarkGrath said that is Law Manipulation seems valid, when the Flow of Time was affected a world was created where the time was stopped governed by the power of the order of time, it was not a simple time stop at a local scale but a world created by the order that simply made the time not to flow, that was the law imposed by the order of time.

Jerga was destined to the death of each of the demons may sound minor or pathetic but it must be taken into account because it is a minor order created by Nosgalia.

And many other orders that have not been shown that are destined and their powers are destined for every living being to follow the established order.

And Venuzdonoa who is the destroyer of all creation (because it uses the order of destruction) and reason (because it was created with the Anos' eye that destroys reason) is able to destroy both Jerga and Nosgalia and later it is shown that the order of creation and destruction are above the order of order (but it is not translated for now) and are only below the Chief God (Eques).

So yes, every order has the power to establish the destiny that all living beings have to follow, and whoever can go against the unchangeable order is because they can go against destiny itself. So Fate Manip Resistance is valid.

I will ignore the double standard of a comment I saw above btw.

So @Elizhaa (sorry for the ping again) but what do you think about Fate Manip Resistance based on my comment and Tatsumi's explanation?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

How the **** is it a double standard? I'm just calling out what I see to be a blatant lie about staff input.

 

[Dereck03]

I am not referring to your comments against the abilities or whether what the staffs say is true or not.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I am not referring to your comments against the abilities or whether what the staffs say is true or not.

I see, sorry for the misunderstanding then. I'll get back to responding to this stuff in an hour or so, since I obviously missed a lot.

 

[Tatsumi504]

Stop the cap, Dark never said the statement is literal. In fact, she seemed pretty sure that fate manipulation was invalid in her first post. Please at least try to represent staff opinions accurately, thanks.

Literally her last words on the matter

Furthermore, the quotes that are clearly literal like "The fate determined by the Gods is absolute"

At least make sure a person is guilty before trying to put shit they never did on their head. Really says a lot about the kinda human being you are

 

[Theglassman12]

@Tatsumi504 you wanna quote the exact thing Dark said that remotely said she agrees with you that it’s literal? Because I’m not seeing shit from her comment so you’re either making stuff up on the fly or just flat out lying to me. Also that’s not a literal statement of controlling and manipulating fate, if I made a situation where someone was going to die by an assassin and I suddenly said, “it’s your fate to die by their hands”, that doesn’t give me fate hax, that’s peak flowery language that you’re reaching to the most extreme level here.

And yet the CRT here is so bare bones for scans, especially with Fate hax of all things so you don’t have the right to tell people that they’re just pulling headcanon out of nowhere when you guys didn’t even provide a lot of scans to answer a majority of the questions we have. Instead of telling us we’re using headcanon, provide scans to argue your point, one makes you less of a dick towards other folks.

 

[Tatsumi504]

you wanna quote the exact thing Dark said that remotely said she agrees with you that it’s literal? Because I’m not seeing shit from her comment so you’re either making stuff up on the fly or just flat out lying to me.

Literally her last words on the matter

At least make sure a person is guilty before trying to put shit they never did on their head. Really says a lot about the kinda human being you are

@Tatsumi504 you wanna quote the exact thing Dark said that remotely said she agrees with you that it’s literal? Because I’m not seeing shit from her comment so you’re either making stuff up on the fly or just flat out lying to me. Also that’s not a literal statement of controlling and manipulating fate, if I made a situation where someone was going to die by an assassin and I suddenly said, “it’s your fate to die by their hands”, that doesn’t give me fate hax, that’s peak flowery language that you’re reaching to the most extreme level here.

And yet the CRT here is so bare bones for scans, especially with Fate hax of all things so you don’t have the right to tell people that they’re just pulling headcanon out of nowhere when you guys didn’t even provide a lot of scans to answer a majority of the questions we have. Instead of telling us we’re using headcanon, provide scans to argue your point, one makes you less of a dick towards other folks.

Literally her last words on the matter

At least make sure a person is guilty before trying to put shit they never did on their head. Really says a lot about the kinda human being you are

Next time make an effort to actually read peoples replies or maybe go through the discussion in the acRT you're here to evaluate. I'm trying my best here to keep this simple and calm yet all y'all are doing is questioning my integrity when I haven't said anything remotely close to a lie so thank you very much for that. You absolutely must go out of your way to demean a fellow human being.

This is petty of me but I literally experience of myself dropping a scan calling "x" a spade and you replying with "x" is not a spade. You're once again attempting to counter evidence with what I can only describe as headcanon for a lack of better vocabulary to use on my part. "If I made a situation" is in no way relatable to me opening my mouth and decreeing x as an unchangeable fate.

"You guys"? Please tell me I'm getting the wrong impression here but are you utterly incapable of actually reading what I sent here? I didn't plan this shit and I've already said I'm busy. Just concluded exams and my next semester starts this coming Monday. My participation in both this and the last thread has been sparse. I've made an effort to actually comb through the works to get scans to back up my claims which have only been replied with headcanon as I call it for a lack of better vocabulary. You're dislike of the limited scans available have nothing to do with me. Telling me to bring scans as if I'm a hypocrite accusing others of a lack of evidence to their claims when all I've actually done is bring scans doesn't make me a dick. This convo only turned sour when you both started accusing me of shit I didn't do.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Literally her last words on the matter

At least make sure a person is guilty before trying to put shit they never did on their head. Really says a lot about the kinda human being you are

Read the full quote, dingus.

"Furthermore, the quotes that are clearly literal like "The fate determined by the Gods is absolute" are just lacking in relevancy - even if this quote is 100% true and literal, how does this mean that someone gets Resistance to Fate Manipulation by walking in a time-stopped world?"

 

[Theglassman12]

Yeah good job on taking what DarkGrath said out of context, she said

Furthermore, the quotes that are clearly literal like "The fate determined by the Gods is absolute" are just lacking in relevancy.

On top of her saying “even if this is true and literal”, which doesn’t mean she fully agrees, she’s giving the benefit of the doubt and assuming it’s legit. And again you keep making these massive claims that what’s being said is the truth despite how vague as hell the wording is that doesn’t remotely imply fate hax.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Snip.

Just wast for Elizha and Dark Evaluate your replies.

 

[Tatsumi504]

Read the full quote, dingus.

"Furthermore, the quotes that are clearly literal like "The fate determined by the Gods is absolute" are just lacking in relevancy - even if this quote is 100% true and literal, how does this mean that someone gets Resistance to Fate Manipulation by walking in a time-stopped world?"

Issue that has to do with a separate matter which doesn't include whether it's literal or not.

Yeah good job on taking what DarkGrath said out of context, she said



On top of her saying “even if this is true and literal”, which doesn’t mean she fully agrees, she’s giving the benefit of the doubt and assuming it’s legit. And again you keep making these massive claims that what’s being said is the truth despite how vague as hell the wording is that doesn’t remotely imply fate hax.

Giving the benefit of the doubt after using the words "clearly literal".

Can you make an effort to point out what's actually vague? A character's archaic way of speaking doesn't equal being vague

 

[Theglassman12]

Yes it does when they don't elaborate on them literally controlling Fate itself. If you're going to use a statement of "we determine the fate of this world" to argue for fate hax, I expect to see more examples on what they mean with literal fate itself being controlled with their powers.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Issue that has to do with a separate matter which doesn't include whether it's literal or not.

Giving the benefit of the doubt after using the words "clearly literal".

Can you make an effort to point out what's actually vague? A character's archaic way of speaking doesn't equal being vague

Man you are wasting time just wait. I also called some other staffs to review. Elizha and Dark would reply by tomorrow. So just be patient.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Fate Manip is fine.

The order of order (Nosgalia) is determined to obedience, its orders are absolute, every living being has to follow its order because they are destined to only follow the order, Anos is an exception to this order and that is why Shin cut Nosgalia's throat so that he could not express his order.

Just gonna drop this here as supporting evidence for this claim.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Just gonna drop this here as supporting evidence for this claim.

Raising someone's luck isn't fate manipulation... It's just supernatural luck or power bestowal.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

The order of time is destined to make the flow of time unchangeable, any change made to any change that affects the flow of time will be reverted to its previous state by the guardian of time. And also here is shown what @DarkGrath said that is Law Manipulation seems valid, when the Flow of Time was affected a world was created where the time was stopped governed by the power of the order of time, it was not a simple time stop at a local scale but a world created by the order that simply made the time not to flow, that was the law imposed by the order of time.

Simply creating a world where time is stopped isn't law hax by itself. Even if that were the case, I think you're taking the definition of "world" here a bit too seriously; The actual description of the spell just says it creates a localized bubble where time is stopped, it isn't making a whole new reality where time works differently. It's a pretty common turn of phrase to say that stopping/manipulating time creates a "world" where everything is frozen, but again, it isn't law hax. tfw this means law hax for 2hu LMAOOO

Fate Manip is fine.

If you wonder why, it is because of the following.

Every order has a determined destiny that cannot be overturned by anything or anyone. The order of destruction was only fated to destruction, as much as Aberneyu was tired of only destroying things the same order was determined to continue with the destruction of all things. That is why Anos transformed the order of destruction into Venuzdonoa and limited the order so that all that was limited to be simply destroyed already lost that limitation due to the disruption of the order and the alteration of its determined purpose.

The order of order (Nosgalia) is determined to obedience, its orders are absolute, every living being has to follow its order because they are destined to only follow the order, Anos is an exception to this order and that is why Shin cut Nosgalia's throat so that he could not express his order.

Dark seems to disagree with you as they said that the statement is literal.
Not only is the statement literal, it generalizes it to all Gods so I honestly can't see where you are coming from saying it's vague. That along with Nosgalia saying Once again it's generalized to all Gods and it doesn't just stop there. It goes ahead to say that this ordained fate is Order. In good faith, I assume you didn't see the scans so here they are
If you still don't see it then I honestly have nothing else to add (as far as I can recall currently). I can't remember exactly where every relevant statement across 4 different novels will be.

I'm among the very few people who have actively sent scans to back up my arguments and as proof of that, everyone other than you actually sees it. I believe I have every right to call out headcanon that's based on "muh interpretation" when evidence to the contrary is right there. I also do not recall saying anyone is coping so I don't know where is that coming from.

I think you're both getting a bit mixed up here. Order being this undeniable thing that everyone has to obey would, barring further context, maybe be fate hax. But we know it's directly stated to be the laws of the world, which also fits every description about everyone having to obey it or whatever. So really, anything you could claim as evidence of fate hax is also just... more evidence of law hax, and not necessarily a new power.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

I don't want to keep arguing with you in circles when you already admitted you are using double standards.

Also that's not the context in what I posted his main ability is Words which manipulate order. He gave a fate to those characters to reach a place which they never have visited before. He can even order a things do something or erase things from existence with same ability. That fate statement is not just Power bestowal bullshit. Whatever he says in his words turns into reality. Tatsumi already posted scans above. Fate Manipulation has many different ways of execution his words are fate itself that's what I was talking about. He can just say die and even non living things gets extinguished. The fact his words are Called Order is even more convincing that he can use fate manipulation through his words.


Anyway I am done

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I don't want to keep arguing with you in circles when you already admitted you are using double standards.

Where? Don't go throwing around accusations you can't back up.

Also that's not the context in what I posted his main ability is Words which manipulate order. He gave a fate to those characters to reach a place which they never have visited before. He can even order a things do something or erase things from existence with same ability. That fate statement is not just Power bestowal bullshit. Whatever he says in his words turns into reality. Tatsumi already posted scans above. Fate Manipulation has many different ways of execution his words are fate itself that's what I was talking about. He can just say die and even non living things gets extinguished. The fact his words are Called Order is even more convincing that he can use fate manipulation through his words.

So he can:

-Make people lucky (supernatural luck/power bestowal)
-Turn words into reality (subjective reality)
-Kill non-living things (death manipulation/immortality negation)
-Use order (law manipulation/concept manipulation)

Call me crazy, but I don't think any of these are fate manipulation!

 

[Dereck03]

Simply creating a world where time is stopped isn't law hax by itself. Even if that were the case, I think you're taking the definition of "world" here a bit too seriously; The actual description of the spell just says it creates a localized bubble where time is stopped, it isn't making a whole new reality where time works differently. It's a pretty common turn of phrase to say that stopping/manipulating time creates a "world" where everything is frozen, but again, it isn't law hax.

But the power of the order of time was the one that created that bubble, and yes, it should not be "world" as, a bubble or small space isolated from the world, the order of time imposed the law that the order did not flow in that bubble, it is not a simple time stop but a law imposed by the order of time by removing the flow of time.

I think you're both getting a bit mixed up here. Order being this undeniable thing that everyone has to obey would, barring further context, maybe be fate hax. But we know it's directly stated to be the laws of the world, which also fits every description about everyone having to obey it or whatever. So really, anything you could claim as evidence of fate hax is also just... more evidence of law hax, and not necessarily a new power.

That doesn't disprove my point. The order if it has the necessary context can be given more abilities, moreover Law Manip has no direct-relation with Fate Manip, while everything I explained suit perfectly according to what the Fate Manip page says.

Fate Manipulation is the ability to manipulate destiny itself to achieve a desired result. More subtle forms of the ability can simply nudge events in the users favor while more powerful variations can make it possible to ordain one's victory against their opponent.

Although it is clearly stated that the order is the law of the world, it is also a concept that has been proven to be valid. The validation of Fate manipulation in addition is being proven here, since apart from the order having their law as Aberneyu with the order of destruction that governed the destruction, apart from that law there was the destiny of her order which was that all things were destined to destruction, Aberneyu could not go against that order (law and concept) nor her destiny (Fate).

This I will show is not to be used but to prove that the order clearly has a side that manipulates destiny and it is proven with Eques using his order, in the same way that the other gods exercise their order by manipulating destiny. This, these excerpts were translated by current JP speakers but it is from the WN but because the WN does not differentiate in history from the LN I use it as proof that each order has a Fate that can be used offensively. I will say it again, I will not use it as evidence to use in the profile but to back up my claims that the order clearly has the ability to manipulate destiny.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

But the power of the order of time was the one that created that bubble, and yes, it should not be "world" as, a bubble or small space isolated from the world, the order of time imposed the law that the order did not flow in that bubble, it is not a simple time stop but a law imposed by the order of time by removing the flow of time.

Where is that even stated, though? Yes, order was used to create the time stop, no, that doesn't mean resisting the time stop means you resist everything order is capable of. The manipulation of a source of power and the manipulation of what that power source is used for are two very, very different things. The vast majority of verses have some sort of spiritual, conceptual, or metaphysical basis for their powers, but that doesn't mean resisting one power lets you resist the basis from which the power was formed.

This I will show is not to be used but to prove that the order clearly has a side that manipulates destiny and it is proven with Eques using his order, in the same way that the other gods exercise their order by manipulating destiny. This, these excerpts were translated by current JP speakers but it is from the WN but because the WN does not differentiate in history from the LN I use it as proof that each order has a Fate that can be used offensively. I will say it again, I will not use it as evidence to use in the profile but to back up my claims that the order clearly has the ability to manipulate destiny.

Don't use it at all. Just delete this, bringing WN shit into this is only going to confuse and mislead people. You're making a LN Anos profile, so you use the LN. If the LN catches up and validates you, oh well. If it ends up not supporting your point, tough shit. But for the love of god have some patience.

That doesn't disprove my point. The order if it has the necessary context can be given more abilities, moreover Law Manip has no direct-relation with Fate Manip, while everything I explained suit perfectly according to what the Fate Manip page says.

Although it is clearly stated that the order is the law of the world, it is also a concept that has been proven to be valid. The validation of Fate manipulation in addition is being proven here, since apart from the order having their law as Aberneyu with the order of destruction that governed the destruction, apart from that law there was the destiny of her order which was that all things were destined to destruction, Aberneyu could not go against that order (law and concept) nor her destiny (Fate).

So what exactly is being used for fate manipulation here? Because like I said, the stuff about order being something that everyone has to obey is just more law hax, and not fate hax. As for Aberneyu's bit, I think Glass already summed it up pretty well here.

 

[Dereck03]

Where is that even stated, though? Yes, order was used to create the time stop, no, that doesn't mean resisting the time stop means you resist everything order is capable of. The manipulation of a source of power and the manipulation of what that power source is used for are two very, very different things. The vast majority of verses have some sort of spiritual, conceptual, or metaphysical basis for their powers, but that doesn't mean resisting one power lets you resist the basis from which the power was formed.

It is not "moving in time stop" = Law Manip Resistace, it is "Moving in a space where the flow of time has been stopped by the law of the order of time" so you are indeed going against the Law.

Don't use it at all. Just delete this, bringing WN shit into this is only going to confuse and mislead people. You're making a LN Anos profile, so you use the LN. If the LN catches up and validates you, oh well. If it ends up not supporting your point, tough shit. But for the love of god have some patience.

Ignoring the feat that clearly debunk this whole situation, how lucky some people are.
Let me tell you that the reason the WN profile was deleted was because of the MTL and I am currently reliying on JP speakers so the MTL' reason deletion of the WN applies here???? Oh yeah, NO. We even used LN scans in the WN profile but nobody complained about that. And likewise I used it to give a future context that proves that the order makes clear the general context of Fate Manip but I will not use it in the profile.

So what exactly is being used for fate manipulation here? Because like I said, the stuff about order being something that everyone has to obey is just more law hax, and not fate hax. As for Aberneyu's bit, I think Glass already summed it up pretty well here.

Uh, no, glassman's points have nothing to do with mine. Furthermore his example is absurd, compared to the context of the verse, the law, the concept and the destiny/fate of destruction was disrupted and everything was changed, the concept of destruction was completely turned into something that was not supposed to be allowing the change of how the destined destruction was treated.

Anyway, I will wait for the staff's evaluation, this give and take is exhausting.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

It is not "moving in time stop" = Law Manip Resistace, it is "Moving in a space where the flow of time has been stopped by the law of the order of time" so you are indeed going against the Law.

Again, where is that stated? You seem to be completely ignoring the fact that we index resistances based on the effects an ability has, not the basis behind that effect. Ivis uses law hax, which he only uses to stop time. Therefore it is functionally a time stop, nothing more. This would be like giving a character resistance to quantum manipulation from surviving getting hit by a beam of light (which requires manipulating photons first).

Ignoring the feat that clearly debunk this whole situation, how lucky some people are.
Let me tell you that the reason the WN profile was deleted was because of the MTL and I am currently reliying on JP speakers so the MTL' reason deletion of the WN applies here???? Oh yeah, NO. We even used LN scans in the WN profile but nobody complained about that. And likewise I used it to give a future context that proves that the order makes clear the general context of Fate Manip but I will not use it in the profile.

I'm ignoring it because it has no place in this thread. You using LN scans in the WN page was wrong, but that's the past so let's move on and not make the same mistakes again. It doesn't matter why the WN page was deleted, you still can't mix together two completely different mediums whenever you like. We have very explicit rules about this in regards to anime/manga adaptations for other verses, so don't act like MG is exempt from the rules.

Uh, no, glassman's points have nothing to do with mine. Furthermore his example is absurd, compared to the context of the verse, the law, the concept and the destiny/fate of destruction was disrupted and everything was changed, the concept of destruction was completely turned into something that was not supposed to be allowing the change of how the destined destruction was treated.

It isn't fate hax to say that, without the concept of destruction, things stop getting destroyed. If I drop a plate, did I "manipulate fate" by "changing the destiny" of me eating off that plate?

 

[Fixxed]

@Fixxed I can say the same for you since you love to take a lot of shit out of context and ignore how the page is explained. If you’re going to convince me that it’s a type 1 concept then give the ******* evidence.

Yeah show me in the CM page where it explain that reality is mean actual world not mean thing that the concept govern

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Yeah show me in the CM page where it explain that reality is mean actual world

He uh

Didn't say that in his post, though?

 

[Fixxed]

He uh

Didn't say that in his post, though?

What??

if there's some more scans that further proves that any Order can exist independently from the world or the world being nuked does nothing to Order then I'd be fine with type 1

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

What??

I think you're reading into this way too much. He's just using world here since order does, in fact, govern the world.

 

[Dereck03]

Fixxed, give me some of what you drank.

 

[Fixxed]

I think you're reading into this way too much. He's just using world here since order does, in fact, govern the world.

Or he just misconception about "reality" in here, so he disagree with CM 1. Bruh this about jerga if you see the full sentence, the OP and any MGF supporter in here clearly say concept of hatred demon is independent from the hatred it self, so why he say jerga must independent from world for get CM 1??? Why he dont asking about independently from the hatred???

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Yeah I think this is just derailing at this point, let's call some more staff and wait for Dark to respond if she's still willing.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Deagonx @Qawsedf234 @Planck69 @Maverick_Zero_X any input here is appreciated

 

[Deagonx]

Tomorrow when I get a chance I'll look through it

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

If needed, I can write up a recap of my own points sometime tomorrow.

 

[Deagonx]

If needed, I can write up a recap of my own points sometime tomorrow.

I'd appreciate that. If you could also summarize the focal points in a neutral way and explain the counter arguments too (doing your best to be fair to them) that would save me a lot of time.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I couldn't sleep and I have a crippling soda addiction so I decided to knock this out at 1AM. I tried to keep this unbiased, though MG supporters are free to add more context if I missed any. That said, I excluded things which weren't really pertinent to the discussion at hand, so some previously posted scans will be missing.

Order as a Type 1 Concept

To begin, I accept that Jerga's order - that of the hatred of demons - is type 1. @Oblivion_Of_The_Endless explained it very well in this post, so I won't contest it. However, the issue starts with attempting to scale all other instances of order to Jerga. Jerga's whole deal is very unique, considering he isn't like other gods in that he is/is the embodiment of order; Rather, he had to turn his own source into order, which is something no other character does. This makes scaling the orders of other gods to Jerga's order very questionable, since his order was created under special circumstances.

There are then two arguments that run counter to that. The first is this statement, which is that Jerga's order was second only to that of the gods, implying gods' orders are superior in some way. There is also a statement that Jerga had become a shard of the world's order, implying that his type 1 concept was only a fragment of a greater concept. The first statement is quite vague; We do not know how or why Jerga's order is inferior, so it's difficult to infer that this can be translated to "Jerga's order is type 1, and gods' orders are superior, so they have to be type 1 too". The second scan is odd, since it isn't saying that Jerga's order is a fragment of a greater order, just that Jerga's magic had become a fragment of the order of the world (which is Jerga's source).

In short, it is the OP's belief that the two statements comparing Jerga's order indicate all other order is superior to a type 1 concept, while I believe both statements should not be used in this way as they do not elaborate on the nature of the superiority. Thus, in my opinion it would be best to index each individual order separately, rather than attempting to generalize all of them.

Order as Fate

The OP originally proposed fate manipulation as an extension order because of this, where order is equated with providence. The OP also said they'd remove this part from the original proposals, but they still haven't done that?

There is also the repeated idea that gods control the fates of those below them, as shown here and here. The scans speak for themselves, I think, so there's not much I can add here.

Finally, it is stated that when Abernyu died, the order of destruction fell alongside her. This caused destruction itself to halt, preventing those who should have died from dying, and those who should've fallen to ruin survived. The idea here is that, because these people were destined to die, and that the alteration of order changed their fate, order should constitute fate manipulation.

My issues are as follows. First is that "providence" just refers to divine protection, not any sort of manipulation of fate.

Secondly, I'll start with the second batch of scans. These mostly state that the order of the gods is the absolute, unchangeable force. While that may support fate manipulation, they fit law manipulation equally well, so from my perspective it seems more like it's talking about the laws gods impose on the world. The first scan is definitely fate manipulation, but the big issue is that at no point does it say that order and fate are the same thing, just that gods control fate.

For the final part, it's a simple matter of the concept of destruction ceasing, thereby preventing things from being destroyed. This is not fate manipulation, it's more akin to someone dropping a plate and then "changing the future" by not being able to eat off the plate after the fact. If a concept doesn't exist, then the things relying on that concept will not work, extending into the future, though this is by no means controlling fate.

I'm also aware that Dereck has posted scans debunking this point. However, these come from the web novel version of Maou Gakuin, and as the page currently indexed is exclusively for the light novel version, those scans should not be used.

Power Modification

This hasn't been discussed at all, so no defense from the OP has been made. In this scan, Anos was able to make the order of destruction his own, by taking the power leaking from Abernyu and creating Venuzdonoa with it. The issue is, Abernyu is dead, so this is more like taking an ambient magical phenomena and manipulating it, not modifying someone else's power.

Resisting Order via Resisting Time Stop

In these scans, Anos is able to resist Ivis' time stop. The argument from the OP is that, since Ivis utilises the order of time, then Anos would have to be resisting the effects of order as well (granting resistance to CM1/2, fate hax, law hax, and so on). This is further supported by the statement that Ivis created a new world where time is frozen, implying the institution of a new reality with differing laws, and Anos was able to resist the laws being imposed on him.

My contentions are twofold. For the latter, it is a common turn of phrase to say a time stop creates a "world where time has frozen" (even my own verse does this, for example). This is not intended as a way of saying a new reality with different laws was created, so it shouldn't really apply here. Of course, it isn't really a "world" at all, just a bubble shaped AoE. The former is more complicated, since we don't typically give resistances to the mechanisms of a power source, rather, we give resistances based on the actual applications of the power source. For example, characters in Guilty Gear and Digimon use information manipulation as a basis for magic, but not every character who resists a magical attack also resists information manipulation. Or for another example, characters in Touhou (please do not derail this thread talking about Touhou again, this is just an example) create attacks by giving concepts to them, but that doesn't mean every character who resists a regular attack would resist concept manipulation.

So this would only be resistance to time stop, and not resistance to order, since order is just a mechanism through which the time stop is used. By the way, as a side note, Anos currently has resistance to law manipulation and CM1 based on this:

Law Manipulation & Conceptual Manipulation (Type 1. Can resist abilities that stems purely from Order)

If the above logic is rejected, this would need to be removed from his profile.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

I'd appreciate that. If you could also summarize the focal points in a neutral way and explain the counter arguments too (doing your best to be fair to them) that would save me a lot of time.

I'd appreciate you check @Elizhaa @DarkGrath & @Dereck03 replies. Fuji being neutral is not possible

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I'd appreciate you check @Elizhaa @DarkGrath & @Dereck03 replies. Fuji being neutral is not possible

Unnecessary slander aside, why did you quote me but with the text of Deagon's last post? Did you mean to quote him but quoted me accidentally? Is that even possible?

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

Unnecessary slander aside, why did you quote me but with the text of Deagon's last post? Did you mean to quote him but quoted me accidentally? Is that even possible?

Built different.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Unnecessary slander aside, why did you quote me but with the text of Deagon's last post? Did you mean to quote him but quoted me accidentally? Is that even possible?

I was pretty sure I quoted Daegonx but whatever let me quote him.