Fire Emblem: Three Houses CRT

[TheGatememer]

- Sothis: Just remove the Unknown key altogether, it causes too much confusion and just straight up false on most parts. She is definitely stronger at her peak, but I don't think there is enough information about her to warrant her another key. I think her immortality should just be replaced with Longevity, There isn't much suggesting that she can't die from natural causes, aside from her long lifespan. And since she came from space, she should have Self-Sustenance (Type 1), Resistance to Cosmic Radiation and Extreme Cold.

- Everyone that scales to the Post-Timeskip students: I think that everyone should just straight up be FTL. There are so many instances of students being able to keep up with the god tiers. I won't touch on AP, but it has been shown multiple times that they aren't getting out sped or blitzed by the god tiers. (ex: Felix defeating Byleth, Catherine and Ingrid regularly sparring, and even defeating Dimitri on one occasion, Linhardt and Leonie keeping up with Saint Indech, Marianne keeping up with Maurice, Caspar defeating the Death Knight, etc. There is even the instance in CS of the pre-timeskip Ashen Wolves keeping up with the Umbral Beast. Then there is Dorothea keeping up with Felix, and Bernadetta borderline blitzing Felix.) So basically everyone that scales to the Post-Timeskip students should be FTL.

- Anyone that is a sword master should have After Image Creation via Astra.

- Everyone should be at least be At least Above Average in intelligence, maybe even Gifted, especially Felix, who has been practicing sword fighting since birth, and is practically a master swordsman. Not to mention the fact that in his epilogue, he seems to be a competent ruler.

- All magic users should have Flight , as seen in their gambit, and sometimes victory animation.

 

[Armorchompy]

Preventing counterattacks shouldn't necessarily be Pressure Points- it could just be attacking in a way that leaves no room up for counterattacks, or many other things. Considering it works on demonic beasts and robots, I'd say that's more likely than PP.

I agree with speed scaling and I wouldn't even disagree with AP scaling, everything else seems fine though I'm unsure about Gifted, just being a skilled fighter doesn't quite seem like it's enough for that.

 

[TheGatememer]

Alright, Ill remove the point about the pressure points. As for the intelligence, I supposed at least above average is fine for most students. Though Felix in particular should be gifted, since they are an incredibly skilled swordsman with lots of experience fighting, even as a child. And in his epilogue, it seems that he is also a competent ruler.

 

[Armorchompy]

I agree, Above Average makes sense, and Gifted for Felix does too.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Actually, I heard there were arguments about Hoarfaust not being real light, but I'd like to tag @DemonGodMitchAubin about that. But the sparring matches can be seen as outliers; being outliers AP wise but not speed wise is often a textbook definition of hiding outliers.
I'd prefer to keep her Unknown key, but we can remove the justifications for the time being. Self sustenance type 1 seems fine, but I heard DT was going to go over surviving not being a legit thing for being resistance to cold; not sure about Cosmic Radiation though.
I agree everyone should be Above Average to Gifted; though not all of them are simply skilled, but being extremely skilled is various much gifted.
Afterimage seems fine, but flight should be worded as Levitation.

 

[Armorchompy]

I dunno, it's pretty consistent, and supported by gameplay as well- and it's not like there's any statements that say the top tiers are thousands of times stronger than everyone else. Them being different in AP, sure, they're using more powerful weapons and all, but I fail to see anything that supports everyone not scaling FTL that isn't "well their AP doesn't scale so their speed doesn't too"

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Edelgard Vs Ferdinand is consistently portrayed as a not even close match up with El outclassing him in every aspect. But FTL in general seems dubious all things considered either way, but MHS+ everyone is consistent since everyone can react to lightning regularly. And actually, Byleth and the respective lords are portrayed as the only characters strong enough to match the respective end game bosses. The Immovable never actually hunts anyone directly, Maurice does chase Marianne forcing her to retreat where she is rescued by Byleth. And Byleth is very much the MvP in every single chapter they're in both combat and tactical reasons. And Lords being seen as the only ones who keep up.
Demonic Beasts also terrorize your entire early game party, despite Edelgard's backstory being able to best them single handedly even at youth + Byleth also doing so to rescue Ferdinand.

 

[Armorchompy]

I suppose that does make sense, I'm still only neutral about it though

 

[TheGatememer]

Actually, I heard there were arguments about Hoarfaust not being real light

I think it is, as the IO's personal ability is even called Surging Light.

Edelgard Vs Ferdinand is consistently portrayed as a not even close match up with El outclassing him in every aspect.

And Edelgard said afterwards that she had to lead with her fastest and strongest strike, otherwise Ferdinand would've had a chance to win. Even then, that is just one instance. I suppose another instance is Leonie vs Byleth, but Leonie is shown to be able to block attacks from Byleth not holding back.

Byleth and the respective lords are portrayed as the only characters strong enough to match the respective end game bosses.

With the exception of the Ashen wolves, and the Umbral Beast. And also, the Blue lions as a whole are implied to have dodged Hegemon Edelgard's attack even though they didn't know where it came from.

The Immovable never actually hunts anyone directly

Yea but everyone can dodge their attacks. This is not FTL movement speed, but FTL combat speed/reactions as far as I know.

Demonic Beasts also terrorize your entire early game party, despite Edelgard's backstory being able to best them single handedly even at youth + Byleth also doing so to rescue Ferdinand.

I'm taking about post-timeskip. Even then, this is moreso an AP feat than anything. Post-timeskip, characters such as Balthus can completely stomp hordes of demonic beasts, as seen in their support with Hapi.

 

[Armorchompy]

That also makes sense. Man it's kind of embarassing I can't contribute to this debate at all, I've beaten the game four times.

 

[TheGatememer]

Don't beat yourself up over it, we all need a refresher sometimes

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Edelgard was mostly just getting tired of fighting Ferdinand reluctantly, and it's despite Edelgard being overstressed with political affairs and sleepless nights, and yet even a bad day Edelgard is far more than a match for a peak conditioned Ferdinand. The Ashen Wolves are indeed portrayed as being significantly stronger than most students in the Cindered Shadows at least and even in various supports, but I thought we agree Cindered Shadows is non canon to other routes.

Hoarfaust is still a Calc Group member thing to decide generally speaking.

 

[Armorchompy]

I mean, a tired El probably doesn't drop in speed over 100 times, especially when she's probably more mentally tired than anything, and Ferdinand doesn't spend his days sleeping around either. There's also several other cases of people being even in sparring, and I'm pretty sure some people even get wounded to save their lords in the middle of battle in some support convos.

 

[TheGatememer]

She wasn't tired, she was just annoyed, so to get Ferdinand to shut up she just agreed to the duel. There is nothing implying she is weakened or tired. Hell, Ferdinand was at a disadvantage, since he was just playing, but Edelgard wasn't holding back.

The only notable instance of anyone blitzing another in FE3H as far as I can remember is Bernadetta blitzing Felix. (Who mind you, can defeat Post-Timeskip Byleth in a duel).

There are plenty of examples of mid tiers keeping up with God tiers, or Mid tiers keeping up with other Mid tiers that can keep up with God tiers, as I have said before.

1. Felix defeating Byleth, and in their paired ending, sparring very frequently.
2. Catherine and Dimitri sparring very frequently in supports, and ending.
3. Ingrid sparring and defeating Dimitri at one point.
4. Fleche being able to stab Dimitri (though he was off guard)
5. Seteth and Flayn are implied to have played a role in defeating the Enraged IO, as seen in the cutscene where they are with Byleth.
6. Demonic Beasts being able to take on the IO.
7. Caspar defeating the Death Knight.
8. Marianne assisting defeating Maurice.
9. Leonie and Linhardt taking on Saint Indech.
10. Leonie being able to block attacks from Post-Timeskip Byleth.
11. Dorothea sparring with Felix, and putting up a good fight.
12. Bernadetta literally blitzes Felix.
13. Sylvain mentions training with Felix.
14. Claude is scared of Lysithea's power (don't know if this counts)
15. Balthus taking on hordes of Demonic beasts.

There is also the fact that there are several combat dialogue options indicating certain mid tiers can go up against god tiers, or mid tiers that can go up against mid tiers that can face god tiers, making this even more consistent.

Maybe a solution for all this could be that the Mid tiers keep their "at least" rating for High 7-A, but then they also have "Likely 6-C'' and ''possibly Low 6-B''. I say this because that the God tiers are indeed shown to be superior on several instances, but not to the point where there should be this much of a difference in tiering. But to show that Mid tiers can often at least pose a threat to the God tiers, they should have the ''likely'' and ''possibly'' ratings. And of course, if Hoarfrost is indeed light (which it probably is considering that the personal ability of the IO is literally called ''surging light, and it is called light in the other versions"), then they should have FTL speed.

 

[TheGatememer]

bump

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Off topic, but Dragon Master also told me Sothis has a High 6-A feat similar to Yune's and Ashunera's.

 

[Armorchompy]

The only notable instance of anyone blitzing another in FE3H as far as I can remember is Bernadetta blitzing Felix. (Who mind you, can defeat Post-Timeskip Byleth in a duel).

What I'm hearing here is that Bernadetta is the verse's true top tier

There are plenty of examples of mid tiers keeping up with God tiers, or Mid tiers keeping up with other Mid tiers that can keep up with God tiers, as I have said before.

1. Felix defeating Byleth, and in their paired ending, sparring very frequently.
2. Catherine and Dimitri sparring very frequently in supports, and ending.
3. Ingrid sparring and defeating Dimitri at one point.
4. Fleche being able to stab Dimitri (though he was off guard)
5. Seteth and Flayn are implied to have played a role in defeating the Enraged IO, as seen in the cutscene where they are with Byleth.
6. Demonic Beasts being able to take on the IO.
7. Caspar defeating the Death Knight.
8. Marianne assisting defeating Maurice.
9. Leonie and Linhardt taking on Saint Indech.
10. Leonie being able to block attacks from Post-Timeskip Byleth.
11. Dorothea sparring with Felix, and putting up a good fight.
12. Bernadetta literally blitzes Felix.
13. Sylvain mentions training with Felix.
14. Claude is scared of Lysithea's power (don't know if this counts)
15. Balthus taking on hordes of Demonic beasts.

This IS a lotta proof, I'm in favor of it again.

There is also the fact that there are several combat dialogue options indicating certain mid tiers can go up against god tiers, or mid tiers that can go up against mid tiers that can face god tiers, making this even more consistent.

Maybe a solution for all this could be that the Mid tiers keep their "at least" rating for High 7-A, but then they also have "Likely 6-C'' and ''possibly Low 6-B''. I say this because that the God tiers are indeed shown to be superior on several instances, but not to the point where there should be this much of a difference in tiering. But to show that Mid tiers can often at least pose a threat to the God tiers, they should have the ''likely'' and ''possibly'' ratings. And of course, if Hoarfrost is indeed light (which it probably is considering that the personal ability of the IO is literally called ''surging light, and it is called light in the other versions"), then they should have FTL speed.

What if the god tiers' durability dropped instead? Is there anything indicating that they can survive hits from their own weapons?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

We are not dropping the durability of God Tiers; it comes from IO tanking the Javelins of Light. Also, Newton's Third Law scales AP to durability. But I'll tag others @DemonGodMitchAubin @KobsterHope07 @JustSomeWeirdo @Edwellken @Dragonmasterxyz
But anyway, I'm still pretty hesitant on making everyone FTL regardless of how many sparring match examples are given the main guidelines of scaling among other things.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

See, the thing is, while yes, students have been shown to keep up with and sometimes even beat Byleth and the lords in sparring sessions, those are sparring sessions, I doubt any of them use Heroes Relics or magic, not to mention I doubt that Byleth or the Lords would really go all out, not saying they don’t try, but it’s not a battle to the death, which is the case in every scenario where they fight the final boss

So scaling the students to the teachers in terms of Speed and AP is iffy to me, I will say maybe a “Like FTL” for students makes sense, but as for AP, I mean they’re just 1/2 weaker, they could still win a fight with skill if they were only 1/2 weaker, so they don’t necessarily scale exactly to the God Tiers AP wise

 

[Armorchompy]

Alright, that makes sense for the dura. Though Newton's third law is kinda iffy considering it's magic weapons and shit.

That said the AP makes perfect sense now, especially considering cutting weapons. And a "likely FTL" does make sense

 

[TheGatememer]

Even if they were half the AP of the god tiers, wouldn't that still be Low 6-B?

Also, there is a chance that they may use Heroes Relics, as Felix does mention that he wants Byleth to master the SotC right away so he can fight against them. Though even if they didn't use heroes relics in their sparring matches, it doesn't change the fact that they can still contend with the god tiers. Not all examples are of sparring, as I have shown above.

 

[KobsterHope07]

I believe the “possibly higher’ for the “At least High 7-A, possibly higher” characters covers the Low 6-B part if I recall

 

[TheGatememer]

I do believe that is the case, but I think it is safe to just say that the Mid tiers can somewhat scale to the god tiers, even half-way. So they would be "At least High 7-A, possibly Low 6-B" is what Im proposing. This is because the higher end JoL calc divided by 2 is still Low 6-B.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

I just didn’t feel like the Mid Tiers deserved then Low 6-B, so they just got the possibly far higher

 

[Armorchompy]

I mean, if the "higher" is supposed to be Low 6-B, then why keep it vague?

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Cause it's already a rating that is iffy to scale to the God Tiers to begin with, so I didn't want to also scale it fully to the Mid Tiers

But I see your point

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I more or less agree with Mitch here.

 

[Armorchompy]

Cause it's already a rating that is iffy to scale to the God Tiers to begin with, so I didn't want to also scale it fully to the Mid Tiers

But I see your point

It's not full scaling, is it? If there's a "possibly", I mean. I get what you mean as well though.

 

[TheGatememer]

Its not a full scaling, they scale to half of what the god tiers are, which is still Low 6-B. In both tiers, the mid tiers are half as strong as the god tiers.
Half of 6-C is High 7-A, and Half of Low 6-B is still Low 6-B.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

We still don't really do that for various fighting game characters, also downscaling characters from superior characters is considered genuinely bad practice. It's another reason there were plans to downgrade some of the Street Fighter characters since not everyone should scale from Chun Li. The whole, "They can sort of spar with them, so we can cut their AP in half," that's the main thing a lot of current staff have been critiquing.

 

[Armorchompy]

I can understand that, but to me it feels like the divide between these characters and the top tiers is a lot smaller than the one between some street fighter mid-low tier and Akuma, or whatever, I dunno the verse.

 

[TheGatememer]

The thing is, its shown consistently that mid tiers can keep up with god tiers as listed above. It's not they can "sort of keep up with them", most of them are pretty close with the God tiers having a somewhat noticeable advantage as seen in the various examples above. Heck, Felix even said himself that it was a narrow victory for him, and that it was incredibly close. It could even be argued that AP isn't really what separates them, but rather skill/techniques, as seen in Ingrid's and Dimitri's support. I don't know much about Street Fighter, but If downscaling from superior characters is bad practice, then why do we have High 7-A as a ranking for them? If dividing their AP in half is a bad idea, then I say we just slap on the "likely" and "possibly" ratings for them/

 

[Armorchompy]

I think it's just in cases where the whole cast would scale, which is a fair enough concern but I just think it makes sense here.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

I mean that belief may just come from the fact that it’s a game and during gameplay, students can be just as effective as Byleth or the Lords

Doesn’t mean I agree with scaling them to God Tiers lore wise, I mean just because some of them can match eachother in a sparring match, doesn’t mean they should scale, we’ve never seen any of the students fight the Final Bosses or in a serious fight

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Oh boy, I'm not actually sure about High 7-A ratings then; if it's just a low end portrayal of the Low 6-B weapons, we might need to fix that. I kinda forgot why it's assumed all Heroes' Relics are comparable to Javelins of Light. But I do know HR all use Crest Stones was the reason they all scale to Demonic Beasts. The High 6-A feat might scale to the god tiers though.

"In the land of Thinis, where the old gods are said to live, the False God has awakened. Its looming, heteromorphic vessel was ressurected to sink the world to the depths of the ocean. It will bring extinction to all children of men, and salvation to all beasts of the land, sky and sea. For the children of men who spilled too much of the blood of life, it promises only cruel retribution.

The False God must be defeated before the world sinks into a watery grave. To this end, the children of men have erected pillars of light upon the land. Thinis, Malum, Septen and Llium were utterly destroyed. Those lands have vanished from this world. Yet even still, the False God stands. And soon, a flood aptly named Despair will drown this world.

The children of men fled to the depths of the earth, beyond the sight of the False God, beyond the entrance of the sacred sun, and beyond the reach of the water of Despair. They swore a fervent oath of revenge against the surface world, ruled by beasts, and against their tormentor, the False God."

This was Sothis while she was on Earth, and the same version who got killed by Nemesis. And it would scale to Sothis magic, which in turns scales to durability of those who can withstand magic attacks from Byleth, then sword strikes that trade blows accordingly.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

We currently scale Heroes Relics to be 1/2 as strong as the Sword of the Creator because of Nemesis's Dark Creator Sword, the Full Power of the Sword of the Creator is powered by Sothis' Crest Stone and the Dark Creator Sword is powered by two Crest Stones

Since Byleth = Nemesis in their fight, my assumption was that it takes two Crest Stones to match the power of Sothi's Crest Stone, meaning that Crest Stones would be 1/2 as strong as the Full Power of the Sword of the Creator, which Sothis Fused Byleth scales to

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I suppose that's sort of fair, but that still seems very iffy. But late for work, need to debate later.

 

[Armorchompy]

We currently scale Heroes Relics to be 1/2 as strong as the Sword of the Creator because of Nemesis's Dark Creator Sword, the Full Power of the Sword of the Creator is powered by Sothis' Crest Stone and the Dark Creator Sword is powered by two Crest Stones

Since Byleth = Nemesis in their fight, my assumption was that it takes two Crest Stones to match the power of Sothi's Crest Stone, meaning that Crest Stones would be 1/2 as strong as the Full Power of the Sword of the Creator, which Sothis Fused Byleth scales to

Is Byleth really = Nemesis? They were accompanied by Claude and together they were still not managing to beat him until Claude pulled a trick on him, if I remember correctly.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

They were equal, Claude got knocked away but was the deciding factor in that battle, Byleth and Nemesis would have simultaneously struck each other in that last clash, meaning they were rather equal

 

[TheGatememer]

I mean just because some of them can match eachother in a sparring match, doesn’t mean they should scale

Um, isn't this an exact example of scaling? It's not like any of them hold back during sparring matches, either one wins or the other. They're fighting, the only difference being they aren't trying to kill each other. If they are shown in lore to be able to contend with the god tiers (which they have several times), then I think that is enough to show that they can scale. Besides, not all examples are of sparring matches as listed above.

we’ve never seen any of the students fight the Final Bosses or in a serious fight

We haven't seen them fight the final bosses, but we have seen plenty fight a serious battle. (ex: Caspar vs Death Knight, Linhardt + Leonie vs Saint Indech, Marianne vs Maurice, Literally any battle conversation that takes place between a mid tier and a god tier.)

The High 6-A feat might scale to the god tiers though.

Honestly, I don't know. Prime Sothis could just be in a league above everyone else, as the Sothis we see is severely weakened, and doesn't really remember much. The only reason that Nemesis even killed Sothis was because she was sleeping. I don't know if this "sinking the world" feat is exactly High 6-A either. Sure, Sothis probably flooded a good chunk of the world, as Shambhala's location is very close to the shore when it was implied they went further inland. However, there are still entire continents, several of whom are larger than Fodlan, still standing. And we don't have a timeframe, so we can't really give them that rating.

And about Nemesis, I'm pretty sure that hes actually stronger, since he can be seen casually knocking Byleth away in their clash.