Fire Emblem Heroes: Low 1-C Update

[TheGatememer]

So, with the new R/F standards approaching, I doubt that the Fire Emblem cosmology qualify for the new R/F standards. However, I do believe that it still should retain it's Low 1-C tier (Xenoblade moment). The reasons are similar to the previous ones, albeit somewhat adjusted, which I have outlined in the blog below:

Fire Emblem: Cosmology Blog

vsbattles.fandom.com

TL;DR is located at the bottom, but I'll paste it here too:

Cosmology​

• Worlds in Fire Emblem (in the context of alternate worlds), refer to alternate realities / timelines (Low 2-C).
• Azura's dream, a world, contains an infinite number of world within itself (2-A).
• The Realm of Dreams contains all dreams, and would have to be large enough to contain Azura's dream (2-A).
• Dreams within dreams have been shown to be lower planes of existences, so dreams above dreams are higher planes of existence. Additionally, higher dreams are shown to have their own independent flow of time from the lower dreams, suggesting an existence of a hyper-timeline. So these factors combined suggest that dreams above dreams are higher planes of existence and/or are hyper-timelines that contain the lower dreams within themselves.
• There have been shown to be two higher dreams above the baseline Realm of Dreams (Low 1-C, 6-D).
• The Realm of Dreams is one of the Nine Realms, and each realm is implied to be of equal size (9 * 6-D).

Scaling Chain​

Baseline 6-D = Tempest = Sakura/Elise < Camilla/Hinoka < Leo/Takumi < Corrin (With Yato) < Xander/Ryoma < Laslow/Odin/Severa <= Lilith < Ryoma (Post-Rainbow Sage Trial) < Corrin (Post-Rainbow Sage Trial + with Noble/Grim Yato) < Xander (Post-Rainbow Sage Trial) < King Garon < Corrin (With Blazing/Shadow Yato) < Blight Dragon Garon/Possessed Takumi/Possessed Gunter < Corrin (Post-Resurrection)/Corrin (With Alpha Yato) < Sealed Anankos < Corrin (With Omega Yato) < Silent Dragon Anankos < Naga/Marth/Chrom/Lucina (Future Past)/Anri/First Exalt < Roy ~ Zephiel ~ Idunn ~ Walhart (Undead) ~ Priam < Grima <= Chrom (With Power from Naga)/Robin (Post-Resurrection) < Ike (Path of Radiance) < Ike (Radiant Dawn) < The Black Knight <= Ike (Vanguard)/Prime Greil < Radiant Dawn Endgame Party = Dheginsea/Altina/Soan <= Ashera/Yune/Ike (With Yune's Power) < Ashunera < 9 * 6-D = Surtr < Book II Order of Heroes < ∞ + 9 * 6-D = Hel < Alfonse (Book III) < Alfonse (Book V) < Ótr < Nótt < Fáfnir < Beast Fáfnir < Nerþuz/Njörðr < Nerþuz (With Aurr)/Njörðr (With Ar) < ∞ * (∞ + 9 * 6-D) = Gullveig ~ Book VII Order of Heroes < ∞ * ∞ * (∞ + 9 * 6-D) = Kiran (With Breidablik, With Land's Power)/Seiðr (With Land's Power)

Agree: Eseseso, ShiftControlAltDeleteTabFn, StekFence, JustSomeWeirdo, DarkDragonMedeus, Franstel, Luckyfun, Bobsican, XitSign, Elizhaa

Disagree: Unqver

Neutral: ZespeonGalaxy (Leaning towards agree)

 

[Eseseso]

Not a top expert on tier 1 cosmology but this looks good to me.

Sonic vs Fire Emblem incoming

 

[Franstel]

I'm not too comfortable with higher D stuff so I'll wait for input from other supporters before voting.

 

[ShiftCtrlAltDeleteTabFn]

I'm not too knowledgeable about higher dimensions either, but this seems fine, I think.

 

[RatherClueless]

I'd lie if I said I'm caught up on FE:H cosmology, but what is "< ∞ * ∞ * (∞ + 9 * 6-D) =" even supposed to mean? That makes literally no sense tbqh.

 

[TheGatememer]

I'd lie if I said I'm caught up on FE:H cosmology, but what is "< ∞ * ∞ * (∞ + 9 * 6-D) =" even supposed to mean? That makes literally no sense tbqh.

PEMDAS exists

It’s 9 times 6-D plus infinity, times infinity, times infinity. The less than, and equal to signs are just part of the scaling chain, and not part of the equation.

 

[RatherClueless]

It’s 9 times 6-D plus infinity

I got the 9 realms part, but plus infinity what? what kind of infinity?

times infinity, times infinity

May I ask how exactly this was concluded? As in, where exactly does that come from?

 

[StekFence]

plus infinity what?

Likely scaling above somebody who has infinite strength in this context. I think???
Anyways heroes scaling, cringe. Agree tho

 

[Franstel]

From the blog
"Gullveig has multiplied her strength infinitely thanks to her growing infinitely stronger with each cycle, and she has gone through an infinite number of cycles, much like the Breidablik. She should be far superior to Njörðr, even with his Ár. At the end of Book VII, the Order of Heroes is able to defeat Gullveig, before she rewound time. (∞ * (∞ + 9 * Baseline 6-D))
After receiving the Land's power, Breidablik, which already had it's power infinitely multiplied, has it's power infinitely multiplied again. That power is then granted to Seiðr, who uses that power to permanently kill Gullveig. (∞ * ∞ * (∞ + 9 * Baseline 6-D) )

 

[TheGatememer]

I got the 9 realms part, but plus infinity what? what kind of infinity?

It’s from Hel, she is stated to grow stronger for each death in the infinite number of worlds, so +infinity. It’s explained in the blog.

May I ask how exactly this was concluded? As in, where exactly does that come from?

Also explained in the blog, but basically, Gullveig uses the power of time to amplify herself an infinite amount each time cycle, and she has gone through infinite cycles. A version of Breidablik used the Land’s power to do the same, except it receives the Land’s power twice, so infinity * infinity.

 

[TheGatememer]

Anyways heroes scaling, cringe.

True!
secretly planning 1-C crt

 

[JustSomeWeirdo]

not a tier 1 guy, but

The information here is factual

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Looks good to me.

 

[TheGatememer]

Bump

 

[Franstel]

I agree

 

[Franstel]

Will the 2-A characters be upgraded to Low 1-C ?

 

[TheGatememer]

Will the 2-A characters be upgraded to Low 1-C ?

Yes

 

[TheGatememer]

By the way, once this CRT concludes, I don’t plan on changing anything beyond the tiers, everything else will come at a later point in time.

 

[ZespeonGalaxy]

2-A stuff seems p fine all things considered, the low 1-C stuff im rather neutral towards leans toward agreeing


Ah yes another series with 2-A Dreams who woulda guessed

 

[TheGatememer]

2-A stuff seems p fine all things considered, the low 1-C stuff im rather neutral towards leans toward agreeing


Ah yes another series with 2-A Dreams who woulda guessed

Tbf, it’s been 2-A for years at this point

 

[TheGatememer]

Bump

 

[Luckyfun]

How many votes left? I agree about 6D stuff.

 

[Bobsican]

So the argument relies on there being infinite people, thus infinite dreams, then there being infinite universes within some of those dreams that have their own infinite set of people that can make another layer of infinite dreams, with these dreams being simply equivalent to universes? My main issue here is on how this is tier 1 over tier 11, namely as this whole deal appears to be below the baseline reality, rather than above, something being an "alternate world" doesn't make it inherently comparable in size to start considering the idea that dream worlds coexist in the same level of reality as normal universes, the scans given even bring up the characters simply mundanely sleeping over their "normal" bodies traveling along.

There's also the matter that pulling this kind of revision in the middle of the site-wide tier 1 changes may not be a good idea as this ironically may get outdated quickly and in need of yet another CRT on the matter.

I'm more than fine with 2-A, however.

 

[TheGatememer]

So the argument relies on there being infinite people, thus infinite dreams, then there being infinite universes within some of those dreams that have their own infinite set of people that can make another layer of infinite dreams, with these dreams being simply equivalent to universes?

It doesn’t rely on infinite people, the argument is simply that there are two higher dreams/planes of existence above the baseline Realm of Dreams (ie, the baseline reality).

My main issue here is on how this is tier 1 over tier 11, namely as this whole deal appears to be below the baseline reality, rather than above,

No? The Realm of Dreams (ie, Ljosalfheimr) is simply one of the other Nine Realms, like Midgard, so it’s not below any of the realms. As such, it’s not even required to dream to get there; with dimensional travel, you can straight up just travel between the realms with your physical bodies, as shown in the blog. Not to mention, beings from the baseline Realm of Dreams aren’t treated as lower beings, hence why they can even interact with beings in other realms. The only realm that exists as an inferior realm is the Realm of Fantasy, which is below the baseline realm of dreams. There’s also the fact that all 9 Realms are implied to be the same size, also shown in the blog.

something being an "alternate world" doesn't make it inherently comparable in size to start considering the idea that dream worlds coexist in the same level of reality as normal universes, the scans given even bring up the characters simply mundanely sleeping over their "normal" bodies traveling along.

I don’t understand your argument here, are arguing that dreams are tier 11, but imply here that dreams exist in the same level of reality? Because those two contradict each other.

There's also the matter that pulling this kind of revision in the middle of the site-wide tier 1 changes may not be a good idea as this ironically may get outdated quickly and in need of yet another CRT on the matter.

I’m well aware, that’s why I made the CRT in the first place; to be in line with the new standards. I said this in the beginning.

 

[TheGatememer]

How many votes left? I agree about 6D stuff.

Just need one more moderator approval

 

[Bobsican]

Oh, well then, just wanted to be sure I wasn't missing anything.

5-D seems fine to me, but 6-D by hypertimeline arguments may need further input as merely having different time speeds isn't sufficient as explained in the Tiering System FAQ.

 

[TheGatememer]

Oh, well then, just wanted to be sure I wasn't missing anything.

5-D seems fine to me, but 6-D by hypertimeline arguments may need further input as merely having different time speeds isn't sufficient as explained in the Tiering System FAQ.

Just going to clarify my arguments here: The arguments for 5D and 6D are the same. The main argument I’m making is that the two higher dreams are both higher planes of existence, while the hypertimeline stuff is supporting evidence for them being higher planes.

 

[Bobsican]

In that case the hypertimeline claim would be a weak argument with the proof given IMO, yet under the current tiering system 6-D in total would be fine, but I'm unaware on if the new system would allow "disqualified" cases of R>F to still be treated as higher-D, given a good chunk of the premise of the changes involve the separation from proper dimensional tiers to R>F and similar.

This is why I'd think it would have been better to do this kind of revision after those site-wide changes if that was the intent, until then this may be redundant.

 

[TheGatememer]

In that case the hypertimeline claim would be a weak argument with the proof given IMO, yet under the current tiering system 6-D in total would be fine, but I'm unaware on if the new system would allow "disqualified" cases of R>F to still be treated as higher-D, given a good chunk of the premise of the changes involve the separation from proper dimensional tiers to R>F and similar.

This is why I'd think it would have been better to do this kind of revision after those site-wide changes if that was the intent, until then this may be redundant.

The arguments don’t rely on R/F (as in, the arguments aren’t based around the lower dream being just a dream to the higher dream), they’re based off the fact that the lower dreams are lesser planes of existence compared to higher dreams, and that higher dreams contain the lower realms within themselves.

Also, I’m 99% sure Ultima said somewhere that depending on the context, “false” R/F stuff can be +1 dimensional jump

 

[Bobsican]

Well, then I have no objections myself, not that it matters as I'm not a mod, but I appreciate the time given.

 

[TheGatememer]

Cool

 

[TheGatememer]

Bump

 

[TheGatememer]

bump

 

[TheGatememer]

Bump

 

[TheGatememer]

Bump

 

[TheGatememer]

Bump

 

[Luckyfun]

Bump

 

[TheGatememer]

bump

 

[NatzuX]

Looks good everything, but these feats aren't enough to qualify with new R>F standards.

 

[TheGatememer]

Looks good everything, but these feats aren't enough to qualify with new R>F standards.

I know, that's why I made this thread with the updated justifications that don't solely rely on R/F