Final Fantasy Downgrades

[HST_Master]

I told you that strong lightning would have the same effect as Tellah's, and I'm pretty sure no one is getting pain manipulation even if they can generate infinite amounts of electrical energy by our standards

And the article very much doesn't say this nor is the Pain Manip just from generating large amounts of electrical energy, those are both your personal assertions. Any internal burning is rare when lightning magic burns every single nerve when used which where the pain manipulation comes from, not just using a bunch of lightning

 

[XXKINGXX69]

And the article very much doesn't say this nor is the Pain Manip just from generating large amounts of electrical energy, those are both your personal assertions. Any internal burning is rare when lightning magic burns every single nerve when used which where the pain manipulation comes from, not just using a bunch of lightning

The pain manip comes from heat. Using heat that can affect the nerves would simply just be really good heat manipulation

And why would this apply to everyone anyway? Tellah is obviously more skilled at magic than normal people. Him doing this doesn't mean everyone can, even if there are people with stronger thunder spells, because it wouldn't automatically mean its hotter

 

[HST_Master]

The pain manip comes from heat. Using heat that can affect the nerves would simply just be really good heat manipulation

If it's a regular thing to attack the nerves, then it's Pain Manipulation, both times it was used, it accomplished this consistently.

And why would this apply to everyone anyway? Tellah is obviously more skilled at magic than normal people. Him doing this doesn't mean everyone can, even if there are people with stronger thunder spells, because it wouldn't automatically mean its hotter

And why are you asserting only Tellah can do this? Thunder and it's derivatives aren't exclusive to him and it's not treated as a "only tellah is good enough to have his magic burn every spell", Golbez is literally tanking all of his attacks, even Meteor merely surprises Golbez that he's capable of it instead of being actually damaging. Even when he acquired all of his magic knowledge back it only resulted in getting all of his high tier version of spells back.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

If it's a regular thing to attack the nerves, then it's Pain Manipulation, both times it was used, it accomplished this consistently.

And why are you asserting only Tellah can do this? Thunder and it's derivatives aren't exclusive to him and it's not treated as a "only tellah is good enough to have his magic burn every spell", Golbez is literally tanking all of his attacks, even Meteor merely surprises Golbez that he's capable of it instead of being actually damaging. Even when he acquired all of his magic knowledge back it only resulted in getting all of his high tier version of spells back.

Assuming it scales to every Thunder user is a baseless assumption though

 

[HST_Master]

How? There's literally no indication that this is somehow different from every other thunder spell, and is even noted by Golbez as unimpressive.

 

[HST_Master]

Even his casting is the same as everyone else, Rydia even learns these spells while she's in the Feymarch, saying only Tellah can use these spells is a baseless assumption

 

[Theglassman12]

@XXKINGXX69 him warping everything just like Neo Exdeath does in the final fight shows he’s a part of the void itself.

Again you need proof that only a small part of the void collapsed instead of the entire void.

Considering you literally see stars flying in the background with the last meteor strike I think it’s safe to say they were near other distant stars before the spell was cast.

You mean the scan you have in the OP that literally has a statement on Tellah using a lightning spell that burns through every nerve? Because the proof is right there.

@AKM sama when he dies the entire Void collapses and he was engulfed by the void, essentially becoming one with it.

the main cast pushes back the void which was threatening to engulf and erase everything at the final fight. If they didn’t do shit then Neo Exdeath would’ve erased all dimensions from existence. That sounds like immeasurable lifting strength to me.

The final meteor zooming past through other stars shows otherwise.

He has the scan in the OP, it literally says it burns through every nerve.

How is drastically accelerating and decelerating the electrons in the target matter not Sub-Atomic manipulation? That’s literally how they can use the fire and ice spells to begin with. By affecting the target’s electrons

 

[XXKINGXX69]

@XXKINGXX69 him warping everything just like Neo Exdeath does in the final fight shows he’s a part of the void itself.

Again you need proof that only a small part of the void collapsed instead of the entire void.

Considering you literally see stars flying in the background with the last meteor strike I think it’s safe to say they were near other distant stars before the spell was cast.

You mean the scan you have in the OP that literally has a statement on Tellah using a lightning spell that burns through every nerve? Because the proof is right there.

@AKM sama when he dies the entire Void collapses and he was engulfed by the void, essentially becoming one with it.

the main cast pushes back the void which was threatening to engulf and erase everything at the final fight. If they didn’t do shit then Neo Exdeath would’ve erased all dimensions from existence. That sounds like immeasurable lifting strength to me.

The final meteor zooming past through other stars shows otherwise.

He has the scan in the OP, it literally says it burns through every nerve.

How is drastically accelerating and decelerating the electrons in the target matter not Sub-Atomic manipulation? That’s literally how they can use the fire and ice spells to begin with. By affecting the target’s electrons

How does warping something = you are a part of it?

Nowhere does it even show or state the whole Void collapsing. We only see a part of it explode

The moon looks larger than stars when we look at the night sky. Does that also make it as far away as other stars? The meteor is also trillions upon trillions of times smaller than a star, so for it to look only barely bigger than a star in the night sky, it would have to be pretty close to the Earth

Nowhere does it say they "push back the void", they just defeat it and the Void gets nulled. They didnt lift the Void. And again, how does every Dissidia character just randomly scale to the FFV cast in lifting strength?

Normal heat already does accelerate atoms and subatomic particles. Thats how change of state works

 

[XXKINGXX69]

How? There's literally no indication that this is somehow different from every other thunder spell, and is even noted by Golbez as unimpressive.

Golbez said it wasn't impressive because he's just strong. What Tellah did was due to the potency of his spell. You need evidence even the weakest Thunder spell = Tellah's

 

[Antvasima]

@Theglassman12 @Eficiente @DarkDragonMedeus @LordGriffin1000 @AKM sama

So what do you think that we should do here?

 

[XXKINGXX69]

@Theglassman12 @Eficiente @DarkDragonMedeus @LordGriffin1000 @AKM sama

So what do you think that we should do here?

I will summarize the points soon

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you.

 

[HST_Master]

Golbez said it wasn't impressive because he's just strong. What Tellah did was due to the potency of his spell. You need evidence even the weakest Thunder spell = Tellah's

And that's completely your assumption, there's nothing different from how Tellah casted Thunder and any other spell user and there's zero proof to say there is. It's just moving the goalpost.

And to boot, Golbez was surprised that Tellah knew Meteor despite it ultimately having little effect. He was unimpressed because Tellah was previously spamming the basic 3 Elemental black magic that 99% of Black mages can use.

 

[AKM sama]

when he dies the entire Void collapses and he was engulfed by the void, essentially becoming one with it.

It doesn't mean omnipresence though.

the main cast pushes back the void which was threatening to engulf and erase everything at the final fight. If they didn’t do shit then Neo Exdeath would’ve erased all dimensions from existence. That sounds like immeasurable lifting strength to me.

Source of them pushing the void? And it also depends on the size of the void itself. Is the void spread across multiverses and is multiversal in size? Or is it simply erasing the multiverses?

The final meteor zooming past through other stars shows otherwise.

Link to this as well? We see comets and meteors as shooting stars zooming past the stars in the night sky. We see airplanes and jets too. It doesn't mean anything.

He has the scan in the OP, it literally says it burns through every nerve.

I have changed my view on this after reading XXKING's points. It just sounds like strong lightning. Unless we are giving it to every lightning ability, I disagree.

How is drastically accelerating and decelerating the electrons in the target matter not Sub-Atomic manipulation? That’s literally how they can use the fire and ice spells to begin with. By affecting the target’s electrons

All heat works like that. Unless we are giving that to every heat related ability, I disagree.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I agree with AKM regarding how temperature works, heat just passively effects atoms and molecules as that's literally what the definition of thermal energy is. The thermal energy in a glass of water = the combined kinetic energy of every water molecule in said glass of water. It's not like the character has an ability to bend each molecule, atom, sub-atomic particle individually.

But as for the Void, it was discussed countless times that the Void is an object that literally dwarfs the size of the infinite sized multiverse and literally eats the multiverse. Though, pushing it back could more or less be correlated to striking strength rather than lifting strength. We had made rules that exerting force calculations and/or pushing giant objects if only lifting strength if it was done without making use of momentum. Such as lifting, pulling, or standing in place as you shove. Swinging a sword at it or punching it would not be lifting strength. So it would just be Multiversal+ Class striking strength as opposed to Immeasurable lifting strength.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out.

 

[Theglassman12]

@XXKINGXX69 His existence being a part of the void is the main argument, him warping everything just like Neo Exdeath does when he became one with the Void is supporting argument to him being one with it.

And you have no proof that only a part of it is exploding, until you do you're grasping at straws here.

A moon being bigger than stars doesn't prove shit here, also the fact that the spell was casted, and then you see the meteors flying tells me it was already in movement by the time you see the distant glint.

Defeat the Void and stopping it from erasing everything? The thing that Neo Exdeath was going to do had they not stop him? The crystals in general holds the void in place in the game, also any dissidia character is comparable to the FF5 cast since they can fight them on even ground, that's basic powerscaling 1 o 1.

Not the target's matter in the first place in order to generate any heat or cold, which is literally what you do when casting a spell.

@AKM sama His existence being in the Void is proof of omnipresence, him collapsing the entire dimension upon his death is just supporting evidence that he's one with the void, otherwise nothing would've happened in the area.

Final fight with Neo Exdeath and literally the entire point of the crystals in FF5 to stop the Void from getting into the worlds. And yes it exists across the entire multiverse as Gilgamesh uses it to go to every single final fantasy game he's ever been in.

Literally in the OP there's the final meteor zooming past numerous stars before colliding with the target.

Why would it be just strong lightning if KING's examples doesn't even back his point up since it's never mentioned that lightning in general affects every single nerve and burns them all?

A fire and ice spell literally starting off with affecting the electrons of the target isn't the same thing as normal heat just affecting a general area, the description literally specifies it affecting the target through magic, especially when affecting the atoms is something describes for plenty of magical abilities in the series like turning someone into a frog or petrifying them?

 

[XXKINGXX69]

@XXKINGXX69 His existence being a part of the void is the main argument, him warping everything just like Neo Exdeath does when he became one with the Void is supporting argument to him being one with it.

And you have no proof that only a part of it is exploding, until you do you're grasping at straws here.

A moon being bigger than stars doesn't prove shit here, also the fact that the spell was casted, and then you see the meteors flying tells me it was already in movement by the time you see the distant glint.

Defeat the Void and stopping it from erasing everything? The thing that Neo Exdeath was going to do had they not stop him? The crystals in general holds the void in place in the game, also any dissidia character is comparable to the FF5 cast since they can fight them on even ground, that's basic powerscaling 1 o 1.

Not the target's matter in the first place in order to generate any heat or cold, which is literally what you do when casting a spell.

@AKM sama His existence being in the Void is proof of omnipresence, him collapsing the entire dimension upon his death is just supporting evidence that he's one with the void, otherwise nothing would've happened in the area.

Final fight with Neo Exdeath and literally the entire point of the crystals in FF5 to stop the Void from getting into the worlds. And yes it exists across the entire multiverse as Gilgamesh uses it to go to every single final fantasy game he's ever been in.

Literally in the OP there's the final meteor zooming past numerous stars before colliding with the target.

Why would it be just strong lightning if KING's examples doesn't even back his point up since it's never mentioned that lightning in general affects every single nerve and burns them all?

A fire and ice spell literally starting off with affecting the electrons of the target isn't the same thing as normal heat just affecting a general area, the description literally specifies it affecting the target through magic, especially when affecting the atoms is something describes for plenty of magical abilities in the series like turning someone into a frog or petrifying them?

Where does it even say his existence is a part of the Void? Enuo just says he exists in the Void. Controlling and warping the reality around you isn't even omnipresence

How does the meteor flying by the time you see a glint mean it flies all the way from the stars? It doesn't "zoom past stars", it just zooms past the night sky

The crystals use reality warping powers to do that. Has 0 correlation to lifting strength. They defeat the Void by destroying Neo Exdeath with magic power, and then the Crystals come back and nullify the Void. Fighting FF5 characters doesn't even mean you have lifting strength on that level

I know it exists across all worlds, thats why its used by Cloud of Darkness to erase all existence, controls all Creation, created all existence and is beyond space and time

There is no statement that the whole Void collapses once Enuo is defeated. It just shows a small part of it exploding

 

[Theglassman12]

Him saying they understand his existence, and that he’ll show his power, the power of the Void, with his existence warping everything just like Neo Exdeath did when he was one with the Void is proof, can you actually tackle my points instead of repeating the same comment over and over?

When was there a night sky? Majority of the fights take place in the afternoon so where are you basing this entire logic from?

Where does it say they warp reality to do it? For someone who keeps asking for proof you seem to lack any evidence to argue your end. You mean their own powers that they can use and withstand since they can withstand their own attacks? That still scales regardless. They do when they clash all the time and can push them back as shown with Jecht and others who fought FF5 characters.

That’s Neo Exdeath, not Cloud of Darkness, cloud of darkness was trying to erase the two universes, not the entirety of existence itself.

You mean the part that’s relevant to show because that’s where the main cast is? Again prove it’s only that small space and not the entirety of the Void, if you don’t then you’re not making any progress here.

 

[AKM sama]

Him saying they understand his existence, and that he’ll show his power, the power of the Void, with his existence warping everything just like Neo Exdeath did when he was one with the Void is proof

These statements don't mean he is one with the void. It only means he has the power to erase stuff/void manipulation or that he has some sort of control over the void. Not that he is omnipresent across the void.

Literally in the OP there's the final meteor zooming past numerous stars before colliding with the target.

This seems like a perspective thing. Again, a close shot of a spaceship flying off to space would look like the same as it is flying past the distance stars because the background seems to be moving as the camera does.

Why would it be just strong lightning if KING's examples doesn't even back his point up since it's never mentioned that lightning in general affects every single nerve and burns them all?

He posted a source which does say that it can. And logically speaking, lightning is nothing but electricity and when it rushes through the body, it harms the nervous system because our nervous system uses electrons too. This is just science.

A fire and ice spell literally starting off with affecting the electrons of the target isn't the same thing as normal heat just affecting a general area, the description literally specifies it affecting the target through magic, especially when affecting the atoms is something describes for plenty of magical abilities in the series like turning someone into a frog or petrifying them?

All fire and ice starts with affecting them.

The crystals use reality warping powers to do that. Has 0 correlation to lifting strength. They defeat the Void by destroying Neo Exdeath with magic power, and then the Crystals come back and nullify the Void. Fighting FF5 characters doesn't even mean you have lifting strength on that level

Can you post the evidence of this.

 

[Theglassman12]

How is his existence warping everything not proof he’s a part of the void? They can only do that if they’re one with the Void itself.

how is it a perspective thing when you see it in outer space a few seconds prior? On top of it being a dark background where the vacuum of space is?

magic that’s done through projecting your mind into reality isn’t science. Neither is lightning that targets every single nerve in the body when his own scan doesn’t prove this.

Prove that every single ice and fire spell in fiction does this, because not every single form of fiction goes this in depth with describing how you have to control the electron flow of the target to generate heat or make things cold.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Him saying they understand his existence, and that he’ll show his power, the power of the Void, with his existence warping everything just like Neo Exdeath did when he was one with the Void is proof, can you actually tackle my points instead of repeating the same comment over and over?

When was there a night sky? Majority of the fights take place in the afternoon so where are you basing this entire logic from?

Where does it say they warp reality to do it? For someone who keeps asking for proof you seem to lack any evidence to argue your end. You mean their own powers that they can use and withstand since they can withstand their own attacks? That still scales regardless. They do when they clash all the time and can push them back as shown with Jecht and others who fought FF5 characters.

That’s Neo Exdeath, not Cloud of Darkness, cloud of darkness was trying to erase the two universes, not the entirety of existence itself.

You mean the part that’s relevant to show because that’s where the main cast is? Again prove it’s only that small space and not the entirety of the Void, if you don’t then you’re not making any progress here.

When was Neo Exdeath one with the Void? he just transformed into Neo Exdeath. Again, how does warping stuff just mean you're one with the Void?

Even if it wasn't the night sky, it could still be outer space, and is a perspective thing, not even confirming its literally coming from the stars

It looks more like the Crystals nulling the Void here. Absolutely nothing here has anything to do with anyone's lifting strength

You literally made the claim that the whole Void collapsed dude, where's the scan?

Can you post the evidence of this.

Here we see the Crystals coming back is what causes the Void to be nullified

 

[Theglassman12]

He gets consumed by the void, and then turns into neo exdeath, how else did he turn into neo exdeath in the first place? Warping things with your own existence is supporting evidence for my argument.

You do realize it being in outer space just proves my point that it's flying past stars since that's the only bright object in outer space right? You just shot your argument down.

Where does it say it's nulling the void? If it nulled the Void it wouldn't do shit or even exist at all.

Literally look at what happens when Enuo dies, that's the scan. Again where's the proof it only collapsed part of the Void instead of the entire void?

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Being consumed by the Void doesn't mean you become one with it

You can still be in outer space and see those stars from a far, without being close to stars

You can see that parts of the Void disappeared from the real world. And again, no evidence of them lifting the whole void

So this is your evidence of the entire Void collapsing? Where does it say its the entire Void?

 

[Theglassman12]

You being one with an entire power that erases all of existence makes you a part of it, Enuo is proof of this.

And what about this comment disproves meteor flying past these stars again? And the fact the characters can react to it? Can you remotely prove this at all?

They pushed back the void with their powers, the void was sent back where it originates which is the entire point of the crystals.

No, prove it’s only the small part, if you can’t give me a proof on this then you’re grasping at straws here.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

You being one with an entire power that erases all of existence makes you a part of it, Enuo is proof of this.

And what about this comment disproves meteor flying past these stars again? And the fact the characters can react to it? Can you remotely prove this at all?

They pushed back the void with their powers, the void was sent back where it originates which is the entire point of the crystals.

No, prove it’s only the small part, if you can’t give me a proof on this then you’re grasping at straws here.

Where does it say they were "one with the Void's power"?

Do I need to keep repeating? We do not see the meteor being as far away as the stars. If it was, we wouldn't see that glint. We have no idea what distance it travelled from.

They didn't use lifting strength to push back the Void

Your evidence that the entire Void collapsed is that we see a place in the Void exploding. At no point does it say the entire Void collapses. The evidence that the whole Void doesn't collapse is that there is no evidence the whole Void collapses. There is no statement confirming it at all

 

[Antvasima]

@Matthew_Schroeder @CrimsonStarFallen

Your input would still be appreciated here.

 

[Shmooply]

I forgot to mention that I do actually agree with FFXIV's WoL losing his infinite speed for defeating Neo Exdeath. He doesn't have any other infinite speed feats that I can remember, so he'll have to be downgraded to MFTL+ once this revision is over.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Just saying that there's feats of moving through time that might be immeasurable for FF characters, so don't worry about infinite speed removal

 

[Shmooply]

Not that knowledgeable on other FF titles besides XIV, which characters would those be and do they travel through time physically?

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Not that knowledgeable on other FF titles besides XIV, which characters would those be and do they travel through time physically?

FF Dimensions. A friend of mine told me about it, I don't have the scans right now though. But yes they do

 

[Theglassman12]

Enuo’s existence with the void and Exdeath literally being consumed by the void is proof. Can you actually give debunks to my points instead of just asking questions?

yes you do when you see numerous sparks of light that Meteor zooms by in the final crash.

Where’s the proof? Because you haven’t given any proof, and the crystals pushing the Void back to where it was tells us otherwise.

the visual evidence tells us more than what you’re claiming so again you’re arguing with no evidence whatsoever.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I'm fine with both downgrades.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for the evaluation.

 

[ZetaMarishi]

In agreement with Glassman here, though admittedly yeah the XIV Warrior of Light shouldn't be infinite speed. MFTL+ is fine for them.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Enuo’s existence with the void and Exdeath literally being consumed by the void is proof. Can you actually give debunks to my points instead of just asking questions?

yes you do when you see numerous sparks of light that Meteor zooms by in the final crash.

Where’s the proof? Because you haven’t given any proof, and the crystals pushing the Void back to where it was tells us otherwise.

the visual evidence tells us more than what you’re claiming so again you’re arguing with no evidence whatsoever.

What existence with the void? How is being consumed by something = omnipresnece

How do these sparks of light mean it comes from the stars?

You made the claim it scales to lifting strength, and send scans of the FF cast scaling in LS to the crystals

What visual evidence? If it was so obvious, you would have a scan of it by now. You seem to keep shifting burden of proof. What you say is a positive claim

 

[Theglassman12]

Enuo's existence with the void, that happens after being consumed by the void.

It's in outer space, what other source of light is there in space?

You mean the crystals that blessed the characters with all of its power? Something made blatant in the game?

You literally had the scan in front of you. Prove it's only a small part of the Void instead of the entire void when Enuo is using the entire Void itself against the cast.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Enuo's existence with the void, that happens after being consumed by the void.

It's in outer space, what other source of light is there in space?

You mean the crystals that blessed the characters with all of its power? Something made blatant in the game?

You literally had the scan in front of you. Prove it's only a small part of the Void instead of the entire void when Enuo is using the entire Void itself against the cast.

Wtf does "existence with the void" mean?

Stars are a source of light, but as I have said many times, that's just a perspective thing, you can move your hand in front of you up in the sky and it will look like its near the sun

Where does it say it increased their lifting strength increased to be equal with the crystal's lifting strength? And the crystals don't have lifting strength, its just pushing back something with power. They don't have muscles

Enuo using the whole Void doesn't mean the whole Void collapsed. The scan doesn't say the whole Void collapsed, it just showed that area exploding. Also, the Void collapsing doesn't mean Enuo was omnipresent in it. It could just mean his control over it stopped

 

[Antvasima]

Perhaps it would be best if each of the sides summarise their arguments. After that I can ask some staff members to help us out with evaluating them.

 

[Genericstickman]

I mean at the end of V weren't the cast surprised the void was still around after defeating Neo Exdeath which implies it was supposed to be destroyed along with him but wasn't due to the crystals still being shattered