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Calculating Hax: Size Manipulation and Transmutation; Quantifying Creation and Change in Mass

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KingTempest

KingTempest

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Alright, well typing this up is simple, but I know this thread won't be.

Now the conversation will be between 2 different mechanics on this wiki, Size Manipulation and Transmutation.
These are 2 abilities that have had calculations in for them, whether it be GPE/GBE or KE or anything, but people genuinely attempt to find methods of calculating these.
This thread will be used to sum up whether it does or if it doesn't.

Also a side addition would be to find energy values from the new Creation Feats table.

Size Manipulation​

Size Manipulation, specifically growth when retaining the same density (AKA growing in mass), is akin to creation feats. They are creating mass and adding that mass onto a person.
Characters are usually seen growing their body out, or expanding their limbs into attacks.

What does this sound like?
KE and PE.

Recently we had a large crt about creation feats, and we were given a table on it.
Characters changing their size and mass is akin to creation. They are creating more body-mass.

Now whether we'd use the table of creation feats or any other method, it's not really the most important priority, but the point is that if creation feats can work, then so should size feats.

Transmutation​

Same as above.

Transmuting something would be deleting or adding mass via changing the object's composition, which then gets into density and finally mass.

Possible Ways to Go About It​

For Size Manipulation and Transmutation, if the new mass is larger, then we could go 2 ways.

Use the Mass Table for the added mass onto the object. New mass - Old mass = Change in mass, then find it on the table.

Example for Growth
The volume of Mount Everest is 1.4e12 cubic meters.
Making Mount Everest 7.8e12 cubic meters while retaining the same mass.

Mass of Mount Everest is 1.619e14 kg.

1.619e14 * [(7.8e12)/(1.4e12)] = 9.0201429e+14 kg

According to the table, this would be Low 7-B, or small city level.

Example for Transmutation
The density of ice is 917 kg/m3 (google).
The density of gold is 19300 kg/m3 (google).

Mass of the Antarctic ice sheet is 2.65e19.

2.65e19 * (19300/917) = 5.5774264e20 kg

According to the table, this would be Low 6-B, or small country level.

Quantifying Creation Feats and the feats above, even Moon level and above​

A pattern I just noticed in the table is that the table of creation feats follow the High End to Low End ratio in our Attack Potency page.

That gave me the thought of quantifying creation feats with actual energy units.

For example,
Above I got 9.02e14 kg for the transformation of the Mount Everest.
Baseline of Low 7-B would be 5.4e14 kg, and baseline for the tier is 4.184e15 joules.
4.184e15 * [(9.02e14)/(5.4e14)] = 6.9888296e+15 joules.

Above I got 5.57e20 kg for the transformation of the Antarctic Ice Sheet.
Baseline of Low 6-B would be 5.4E20 kg, and baseline for the tier is 4.184e21 joules.
4.184e21 * [(5.57e20)/(5.4E20)] = 4.315e21 joules. Higher into Low 6-B

Decreasing Mass​

As of now, I don't know about this one.

Removing mass is like making it nonexistent, which is truly unquantifiable to calculate.

So anything in the comments would be appreciated.

Conclusion​

We should be able to calculate feats of changing mass, whether it's by transmutation, size manip, or anything else.

Add this to the Creation Feats page.
In the case of Growing, Shrinking, and Transmuting objects, they follow the same criteria as creation feats. For non-celestial bodies, they will use the mass table for change in mass. For celestial bodies, they will also use Gravitational Binding Energy.
Click to expand...
 
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For increasing in mass (be it via size manip or transmutation) using the creation table is fine. For size growth KE/PE would be preferable though. If we can quantify a value might as well use it.
In general, I think for reality-warping feats (which would, for example, include turning say a planet into something else, even of lesser mass) using the table should be fine. Like when you reality warp a continent out of existence or something.

I'm much against the ratio idea. The entire method is heavily rule of thumb.
To insert a joke brought up in an entirely unrelated thread recently.
A group of Civil Engineers were at a conference being held in Central Australia. As part of the conference entertainment, they were taken on a tour of the famous rock, Uluru.
"This rock", announced the guide, "is 50 000 004 years old."
The engineers - always impressed by precision in measurement - were astounded.
"How do you know the age of the rock so precisely?" asked one of the group.
"Easy!", came the reply. "When I first came here, they told me it was 50 million years old. I've been working here for four years now."
Click to expand...
Basically, making the values precise as that would suggest a precision that we just don't have.
So I stand with what I put on the side:
As the entire judgement of the feats follows no precise method of quantification, no precise energy value should be assumed. If absolutely necessary to do so, it is advised to default to the baseline of the tier the character was given.
Click to expand...
 
DontTalkDT said:
For increasing in mass (be it via size manip or transmutation) using the creation table is fine. For size growth KE/PE would be preferable though. If we can quantify a value might as well use it.
Click to expand...
Thanks, the only issue with KE tho is the inconsistency mass during growth, so PE would work.
DontTalkDT said:
In general, I think for reality-warping feats (which would, for example, include turning say a planet into something else, even of lesser mass) using the table should be fine. Like when you reality warp a continent out of existence or something.
Click to expand...
Question about the lesser mass portion.

Calculating that would just be mass of lesser object? Or would it be manipulating that deleted mass and you’d scale them to the lost mass?
DontTalkDT said:
I'm much against the ratio idea. The entire method is heavily rule of thumb.
To insert a joke brought up in an entirely unrelated thread recently.

Basically, making the values precise as that would suggest a precision that we just don't have.
Click to expand...
This is fair then, unfortunately but meh.
It’s just weird, if someone makes something with twice as much mass as a baseline tier, it’s weird to scale them to baseline
DontTalkDT said:
So I stand with what I put on the side:
Click to expand...
Didn’t even know that was there.

Thanks for the input DT
 
Is it really ok for characters to scale to creation fest but not even knowing if they can outright destroy said creation?
 
BlackeJan said:
Is it really ok for characters to scale to creation fest but not even knowing if they can outright destroy said creation?
Click to expand...
Not the thread for that, and I thought you would known better that people can create countries and not breaks down houses. Destruction has no correlation
 
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For size growth usually the KE of the increase in size is rather underwhelming compared to calculating from the large size of the character itself anyway, regardless I don't have a problem with it.

I agree with DontTalkDT on the ratio thing, baseline should be assumed if there's not really much precision. However, I guess in versus threads it'll be fine to argue that "Character A's creation powers are more impressive and thus he should win".

For characters decreasing in mass like Ant-Man wouldn't they be usually be able to grow back from their small size to normal size usually (otherwise there's no story to tell)? Then just calculate that I suppose.

EDIT: Never mind it seems like that was actually talking about transmutation feats in general. I'm not sure then. I suppose it should be treated the same as creating?
 
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Not exactly my area of expertise so I'll wait and see what the other calc bois think.
 
How would feats like enlarging or shrinking celestial bodies work? Would we do change in GBE?
 
Ok, I'll drop my thoughts

In general, this is a weirder kind of feat than any other I know. Even with the whackiness that comes from creation feats, increasing somethings actual mass proportionally is such a hard thing to quantify. When it comes to stuff below Celestial Bodies, I believe it should be fine to handle it like Creation Feats and use the Creation Table since fundamentally it's the same sort of principle, being that of creating more mass.

As for changing the size of Celestial Bodies, I do agree going with a change in GBE makes sense as that should be a way of quantifying the difference of mass created. We already rate Creation of Celestial Bodies via the GBE, so it makes sense the difference between two GBE ratings would work for increasing the size of a Celestial Body.

So in general I agree with Don'tTalk
 
Finding the change in (gravitational potential energy of interaction + gravitational binding energy) should be good for celestial bodies. And change gravitational potential energy of interaction alone for the relatively smaller bodies on earth as GBE will be kinda insignificant for those. I'm not sure how Kinetic Energy can be used here tho
 
KingTempest said:
Not the thread for that, and I thought you would known better that people can create countries and not breaks down houses. Destruction has no correlation
Click to expand...
Honesty never seen anyone that’s like that considering characters on this site seems to scale to creation and I thought that this was the place for it. Forgive me chosen one
 
So have we reached sufficient input and consensus to apply DontTalk's suggestions here? And if so, is some staff member here willing and able to properly apply the changes?
 
Just noticed that I haven't... actually thought about what to add to the profiles.

I'll add the proposed changes to the OP in a formal way where it can be added upon the profiles
 
In the case of Growing, Shrinking, and Transmuting objects, they follow the same criteria as creation feats. For non-celestial bodies, they will use the mass table for change in mass. For celestial bodies, they will also use Gravitational Binding Energy.
Click to expand...
 
Thanks

This would need to be added to the Creation Feats page
In the case of Growing, Shrinking, and Transmuting objects, they follow the same criteria as creation feats. For non-celestial bodies, they will use the mass table for change in mass. For celestial bodies, they will also use Gravitational Binding Energy.
Click to expand...
 
@Antvasima

So yeah, this thread died and was never properly applied. So I can apply the changes to the Creation Feats page if you open it for editing. I'm only gonna add two lines that help finish this, hopefully that isn’t overstepping?

"Feats performed via Size Manipulation or Transmutation, such as when a character increases the mass of something, can also be considered and calculated like Creation Feats, as they involve creating mass to add to the initial mass."

"In regards to Size Manipulation and Transmutation, to quantify the creation, take the initial mass and subtract it from the final mass to find the mass created"
 
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That seems fine to me as long as DontTalk accepted it previously.

I will unlock the Creation Feats page for you. Tell me here when you are done.
 
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