Final Fantasy 16 discussion thread

[Dust_Collector]

Hold on several at minimum means 3 instead of 2 so the distance is about 1,666 km just for that small sea, I think using that would make Valisthea and it's surrounding oceans larger than the irl earth and that's just two continents lol, we know there's at least one other large continent that the map doesn't show since it's just for the twin continents so this might even push Bahamuts zettaflare into the exatons.

 

[ArkhamDC06]

Yooo hope all goes well so you can start getting that bread

Thx mate!

 

[ArkhamDC06]

Ok just got past the second "fight" with Barnabas (read, he's immensly casual and obliterates Clive's ass), please tell me we can calc him doing a Moses

 

[Dust_Collector]

Ok just got past the second "fight" with Barnabas (read, he's immensly casual and obliterates Clive's ass), please tell me we can calc him doing a Moses

We likely should be able to, we know by statements that he did split the entire sea (Mid says as much and she's the one who had to man the boat across that entire sea) but the main issue I could see are getting the width of the split

 

[Dust_Collector]

So I have no idea how strict our rules for planet sizes are but might be worth a shot, but given that the continents aren't visible from the distance Ifrit Risen and Bahamut fought in space (Which doesn't appear that much further out than most astronauts irl go but can still clearly see continents would it possible for FF16 planet to be bigger than our own? I recall the planet in Sonic getting pretty crazy sizes due to Angel Island not being visible from space, and this case the continents that make up Valisthea would likely be bigger than any irl continent given that hundreds of leagues statement I brought up earlier.

Wouldn't affect much besides amped Bahamuts and Ifrit Risen given everyone else scales lower besides endgame Clive and FP Ultima (Unless we get something crazy from Leviathan in the DLC next week) but it's something that popped into my head.

 

[sageof8paths]

So I have no idea how strict our rules for planet sizes are but might be worth a shot, but given that the continents aren't visible from the distance Ifrit Risen and Bahamut fought in space (Which doesn't appear that much further out than most astronauts irl go but can still clearly see continents would it possible for FF16 planet to be bigger than our own? I recall the planet in Sonic getting pretty crazy sizes due to Angel Island not being visible from space, and this case the continents that make up Valisthea would likely be bigger than any irl continent given that hundreds of leagues statement I brought up earlier.

Wouldn't affect much besides amped Bahamuts and Ifrit Risen given everyone else scales lower besides endgame Clive and FP Ultima (Unless we get something crazy from Leviathan in the DLC next week) but it's something that popped into my head.

It’s stated titan would destroy one of the islands (I can’t remember) if he ever fought dion (I THINK)

Base ultima has a feat where he lifts an entire island up.

If these islands are as massive as u say, a lot of the base eikon level characters might also increase

 

[Dalesean027]

It’s stated titan would destroy one of the islands (I can’t remember) if he ever fought dion (I THINK)

Base ultima has a feat where he lifts an entire island up.

If these islands are as massive as u say, a lot of the base eikon level characters might also increase

If they do somehow end up around 6-B to high 6-A then that'd be a lot more evidence for Mothercrystal bahamut and Zettaflare being 5-B or higher considering how much more notable it was.


But yeah I mean we already have them all casually around high 6-C so I wouldn't say its even far fetched

 

[sageof8paths]

If they do somehow end up around 6-B to high 6-A then that'd be a lot more evidence for Mothercrystal bahamut and Zettaflare being 5-B or higher considering how much more notable it was.


But yeah I mean we already have them all casually around high 6-C so I wouldn't say its even far fetched

Something to Note as well is ultima prime (not to be confused with ultima risen) tanks the tri-disaster which as the name implies is the combination of ifrit, bahamut’ and phoenix’ power. This would give him ≈x3 late game ifrit power.

 

[sageof8paths]

Also can anyone do the calcs for the possibly relativistic to ftl feats Joshua has that I posted on page 6 or 7

As well as Odin splitting the sea

 

[Dust_Collector]

Just went and checked the Sonic calc I mentioned to see how big they got their planet and uh, they got about 15 times earths size through an island that's 22km in size not being visible, we have continents thousands of km in size that aren't even a speck when viewing the planet in the Bahamut fight.

Which honestly the planet being comically big kinda makes sense, the Ultima race had to travel across the planet from their original home to Valisthea but the journey needed them to cast off their physical forms and become spirits because the despite needing to just move from one location on the planet to another it was beyond the limits of their physical bodies so they had to be stripped to their spirits. Granted there could be other reasons why traveling was too much for their bodies beyond just distance but still.

 

[Dust_Collector]

Even if we went with the planet only being 10 times bigger based on the continents not being visible that would still shoot Bahamuts Zettaflare from High 6-A to Low 5-B.

 

[ArkhamDC06]

Granted there could be other reasons why traveling was too much for their bodies beyond just distance but still.

Maybe they expanded too much energy trying to flee the Blight or creating the Mothercrystals and the Eikons. Ifrit alone could be particulary hungry in terms of energy if he's supposed to basically become Ultima's perfect vessel and that would involve devouring other Eikons

 

[Dust_Collector]

Fleeing the blight I could see as causing them to expend too much energy (But even then given what we're seen it shouldn't of been too tiring for them to just run away), but creating the mothercrystals (Well, turning into them) and creating the eikons happened after they had already cast of their bodies and arrived on Valisthea.

 

[sageof8paths]

So I was rewatching ifrit Vs bahamut again


Fun fact: they’re like 5 lightspeed dodging feats here

and found some very interesting stuff regarding bahamuts attacks which I think their names actually indicate how strong it is via multipliers.

I think this way makes sense as it doesn’t really contradict anything and it’s kinda consistent.

So as we know ifrit has gotten many will amps since the extremely high end Island level calcs to the point where we just accept Large Island level as his power.

This ifrit is then getting overwhelmed by a base bahamut and can consistently get damaged by mega flares from bahamut so they would get his 10^20 joules scaling for Large Island level

He finally grows stronger in that fight, learns spitfire and gets more will amps but still gets one shot and knocked out for a while by the giga flare. The giga flare would be about 10^23 joules which is around Country level+ - Large country level

Further proof of this consistency is the fact that when playing as Joshua, if bahamut should land a giga flare it’s an instant death, if I’m remembering correctly.

Bahamut then gets stronger and is able to pull off a whopping Teraflare which it takes Clive and Joshua fusing energies (not to be mistaken with ifrit risen) to create a force field that could rank the Teraflare which would be around 10^26 joules or Multi-Continental

This is consistent as in any of the cutscenes after this point, neither Clive or Joshua are able to harm bahamut or his force fields on their own but need to do it together implying they have synergy even before their fusion.

Bahamut then get stronger AGAIN and shoots up a ******* Zettaflare which ifrit risen overpowers. This zettaflare would shoot up to ******* Large Planet Level

This is consistent seeing as it’s stated that attack would “burn the world” and as we are just finding out the world in FF16 is much larger than ours.

 

[Dust_Collector]

We don't accept each version of flare being 1000 times stronger than the previous one, there's nothing that really supports such a massive multiplier. The fact that Ifrit Risen can overpower a Zettaflare but still be harmed by gigaflares shows that while there is a gap it's not a extremely massive one.

 

[ArkhamDC06]

Fleeing the blight I could see as causing them to expend too much energy (But even then given what we're seen it shouldn't of been too tiring for them to just run away)

Depends if they had to use at least part of their powers to actively repel the thing

creating the mothercrystals (Well, turning into them) and creating the eikons happened after they had already cast of their bodies and arrived on Valisthea.

Oh yeah forgot that

 

[sageof8paths]

So I was rewatching ifrit Vs bahamut again


Fun fact: they’re like 5 lightspeed dodging feats here

and found some very interesting stuff regarding bahamuts attacks which I think their names actually indicate how strong it is via multipliers.

I think this way makes sense as it doesn’t really contradict anything and it’s kinda consistent.

So as we know ifrit has gotten many will amps since the extremely high end Island level calcs to the point where we just accept Large Island level as his power.

This ifrit is then getting overwhelmed by a base bahamut and can consistently get damaged by mega flares from bahamut so they would get his 10^20 joules scaling for Large Island level

He finally grows stronger in that fight, learns spitfire and gets more will amps but still gets one shot and knocked out for a while by the giga flare. The giga flare would be about 10^23 joules which is around Country level+ - Large country level

Further proof of this consistency is the fact that when playing as Joshua, if bahamut should land a giga flare it’s an instant death, if I’m remembering correctly.

Bahamut then gets stronger and is able to pull off a whopping Teraflare which it takes Clive and Joshua fusing energies (not to be mistaken with ifrit risen) to create a force field that could rank the Teraflare which would be around 10^26 joules or Multi-Continental

This is consistent as in any of the cutscenes after this point, neither Clive or Joshua are able to harm bahamut or his force fields on their own but need to do it together implying they have synergy even before their fusion.

Bahamut then get stronger AGAIN and shoots up a ******* Zettaflare which ifrit risen overpowers. This zettaflare would shoot up to ******* Large Planet Level

This is consistent seeing as it’s stated that attack would “burn the world” and as we are just finding out the world in FF16 is much larger than ours.

Using this we can find out the normal ratings.

Ifrit: Large Island Level, Multi-Continental in Synergy with Pheonix

Ifrit risen: Large Planet Level

Phoenix would be vice versa

Bahamut: Large Island Level with Megaflare, Large Country Level with Gigaflare, Multi-Continental with Terraflare, Large Planet Level with Zettaflare. Multi-Continental when will amped (was able to briefly match Ultima’s beam with his own despite Ultima previously overpowering the Tri-disaster which should be stronger than ifrit and pheonix’ synergy during their fight with bahamut)

Ultima prime: At least Multi-Continental (overpowered the tri-disaster, which should be greater than Phoenix and Ifrit’s synergy)

 

[ArkhamDC06]

We don't accept each version of flare being 1000 times stronger than the previous one, there's nothing that really supports such a massive multiplier. The fact that Ifrit Risen can overpower a Zettaflare but still be harmed by gigaflares shows that while there is a gap it's not a extremely massive one.

The whole Zettaflare being a billion time stronger is not even from FF itself I believe, just from the measurements between the mega, zetta & co real world units

 

[sageof8paths]

We don't accept each version of flare being 1000 times stronger than the previous one, there's nothing that really supports such a massive multiplier. The fact that Ifrit Risen can overpower a Zettaflare but still be harmed by gigaflares shows that while there is a gap it's not a extremely massive one.

Ifrit risen can get hurt by gigaflares? When? Even if couldn’t u just say he got a will amp when he overpowered the zetta flare? Cuz it’s kinda consistent as I explain above

 

[ArkhamDC06]

Using this we can find out the normal ratings.

Ifrit: Large Island Level, Multi-Continental in Synergy with Pheonix

Ifrit risen: Large Planet Level

Phoenix would be vice versa

Bahamut: Large Island Level with Megaflare, Large Country Level with Gigaflare, Multi-Continental with Terraflare, Large Planet Level with Zettaflare. Multi-Continental when will amped (was able to briefly match Ultima’s beam with his own despite Ultima previously overpowering the Tri-disaster which should be stronger than ifrit and pheonix’ synergy during their fight with bahamut)

Ultima prime: At least Multi-Continental (overpowered the tri-disaster, which should be greater than Phoenix and Ifrit’s synergy)

So basically "6-C, High 6-C as Bahamut & with Megaflare, High 6-B with Gigaflare, High 6-A when will amped and with Terraflare, 5-A with Zettaflare"

Bruh that profile's tier gonna be messy (Zettaflare needs another key I believe though)

 

[sageof8paths]

So basically "6-C, High 6-C as Bahamut & with Megaflare, High 6-B with Gigaflare, High 6-A when will amped and with Terraflare, 5-A with Zettaflare"

Bruh that profile's tier gonna be messy (Zettaflare needs another key I believe though)

Yeah but Mr. Dust says it’s not consistent which I disagree with. I think we should wait for Dalsean’s take first.

 

[Dust_Collector]

Ifrit risen can get hurt by gigaflares? When? Even if couldn’t u just say he got a will amp when he overpowered the zetta flare? Cuz it’s kinda consistent as I explain above

In the boss fight, he takes damage from all of Bahamuts attacks, Ifrit Risen doesn't just casually no sell all his attacks. Also what will amp are you talking about? Clive mindset or will didn't change at any point during the battled against Amped Bahamut, he and Josuha just went "Oh shit he's gonna nuke the planet let's stop this" and then they plowed through it. Their will didn't increase at that point (And even throughout the game we don't really see will boost someone to literal thousands to millions of times then what they were at seconds prior. Wouldn't even use Clive suddenly being able to beat Ultimas ass at the end of the game since he finally became complete as Mythos/Logos right before plus the standard JRPG trope of protagonists going from strong mortals to god slayers at a moments notice)

You didn't even explain why it's consistent, a huge 1000 times boost for every higher level of flare would requite a lot more evidence than just their names (Ifrit can take Gigaflares to the face and only stay down for a little while but is still inferior to Bahamuts standard power output, which wouldn't make sense if Gigaflare was 1000 times stronger than his normal attacks, in which case he'd be obliterated or knocked back into Clive if it was 1000 times stronger than himself), it'd be like making Bahamut High 4-C because one of his moves is called Supernova.

 

[Dust_Collector]

The higher levels of Flare are 100% stronger than the lower ones don't get me wrong, but we're gonna need more than their names being Mega, Giga, Terra, etc... to prove that each one is a 1000 times multiplier over the previous.

 

[ArkhamDC06]

The higher levels of Flare are 100% stronger than the lower ones don't get me wrong, but we're gonna need more than their names being Mega, Giga, Terra, etc... to prove that each one is a 1000 times multiplier over the previous.

Like I said, i believe this simply comes from real-world measures. Now I don't know the lore of each FF but I can't remember the 100% ou higher stronger than the last one statements coming from the series

 

[Dust_Collector]

Yeah I'm aware it's from the real life measures, but it's kinda hard to take that and apply it to magical spells in a video game (Especially since like I mentioned, Ifrit Risen can handle getting blasted by Gigaflares yet normal attacks from amped Bahamut still hurt him, which wouldn't work if it was a 1000 times multiplier). The usual assumption we use for stuff like this just in general not just for FF is that we don't use attack names for scaling unless we got something backing them up.

 

[Dalesean027]

Why are we actually trying to scale anyone to Ultima prime

 

[Dalesean027]

Also where are we getting all of these random seperate ratings from?

 

[Dust_Collector]

Also where are we getting all of these random seperate ratings from?

The argument is that each version of Flare that Bahamut uses is 1,000 times stronger than the previous one because they're based on the whole Mega - Giga - Tera naming scheme, which personally I don't agree with, and so Bahamut gets a bunch of different ratings for each higher version of Flare.

 

[Dust_Collector]

Also just made a really shitty attempt at pixel scaling Valisthea on my tablet (Laptop is updating yayyyy) and using the hundreds of leagues statement I mentioned the other day the total size (Not counting the surrounding oceans) is a little under 18,400 km, which is insane as these are just two continents and aren't even visible when Ifrit Risen throws down with Bahamut in orbit.

 

[Dalesean027]

The argument is that each version of Flare that Bahamut uses is 1,000 times stronger than the previous one because they're based on the whole Mega - Giga - Tera naming scheme, which personally I don't agree with, and so Bahamut gets a bunch of different ratings for each higher version of Flare.

Well that doesn't make sense imo as much as I'd like we can't scale off of naming conventions and even then if gigaflare was high 6-B they'd just downscale it to a decent degree since shields and surviving it..

Also uh the first Ifrit Risen and Mother Crystal Bahamut would just flatout scale to whatever the Zettaton value lands at


Anything that happens post pheonix absorption with Clive vs Ultima is like 4-A to low 2-C

 

[sageof8paths]

In the boss fight, he takes damage from all of Bahamuts attacks, Ifrit Risen doesn't just casually no sell all his attacks. Also what will amp are you talking about? Clive mindset or will didn't change at any point during the battled against Amped Bahamut, he and Josuha just went "Oh shit he's gonna nuke the planet let's stop this" and then they plowed through it. Their will didn't increase at that point (And even throughout the game we don't really see will boost someone to literal thousands to millions of times then what they were at seconds prior. Wouldn't even use Clive suddenly being able to beat Ultimas ass at the end of the game since he finally became complete as Mythos/Logos right before plus the standard JRPG trope of protagonists going from strong mortals to god slayers at a moments notice)

You didn't even explain why it's consistent, a huge 1000 times boost for every higher level of flare would requite a lot more evidence than just their names (Ifrit can take Gigaflares to the face and only stay down for a little while but is still inferior to Bahamuts standard power output, which wouldn't make sense if Gigaflare was 1000 times stronger than his normal attacks, in which case he'd be obliterated or knocked back into Clive if it was 1000 times stronger than himself), it'd be like making Bahamut High 4-C because one of his moves is called Supernova.

There doesn’t need to be a change of will or anything massive for Clive to get massively stronger in a fight. It’s like how he goes from losing to base benedikta to beating her semi primed form to beating Garuda in the span of a day.

I did explain why it’s consistent above. When ifrit took the gigaflare to the face he was out for a while, have we forgotten eikon’s have regen? He by no means scales to it nor can he yank it and like I said before, if bahamut lands a gigaflare in game it’s an instant death.

The gigaflare being able to damage ifrit risen is literally inconsistent in game as we literally see Phoenix and ifrit (not fused) synergize to create a force field that tanks the Tera flare which should be >>> giga flare.

That analogy is heavily flawed cuz in this case there’s a direct multiplier in its name. A gigaflare literally means a thousand mega flares.

But like I said let’s wait for dalsean’s opinion.

 

[ArkhamDC06]

What was the Ultima tier justification again?

 

[sageof8paths]

Why are we actually trying to scale anyone to Ultima prime

Ultima prime is NOT ultima risen, it’s the shitty version that beat Clive, doin and Joshua who dion matched momentarily in

 

[Dalesean027]

What was the Ultima tier justification again?

Created the interdimensional rift where he fights clive at endgame with all the stars and stuff which is stated to be a dimension above space time

 

[sageof8paths]

Well that doesn't make sense imo as much as I'd like we can't scale off of naming conventions and even then if gigaflare was high 6-B they'd just downscale it to a decent degree since shields and surviving it..

That’s the thing they don’t need to scale to it in anyway. If bahamut lands it in game u die, and just because ifrit didn’t die doesn’t mean he scales to it, these being can literally regenerate limbs and crazy shit like that.

Also uh the first Ifrit Risen and Mother Crystal Bahamut would just flatout scale to whatever the Zettaton value lands at


Anything that happens post pheonix absorption with Clive vs Ultima is like 4-A to low 2-C

 

[Dust_Collector]

There doesn’t need to be a change of will or anything massive for Clive to get massively stronger in a fight. It’s like how he goes from losing to base benedikta to beating her semi primed form to beating Garuda in the span of a day.

He doesn't get stronger at all, he's just as strong at the start of his fight with Benedickta as he is at the end of it (We're never shown or even have any implication that he gets stronger during that fight until he absorbs Garuda's essence after he beats her), then he gets that amp after absorbing a portion of Garudas essence and ultimately while he holds his own pretty well he needs to transform into Ifrit to beat Garuda straight up.

I didn’t explain why it’s consistent above. When ifrit took the gigaflare to the face he was out for a while, have we forgotten eikon’s have regen? He by no means scales to it nor can he yank it and like I said before, if bahamut lands a gigaflare in game it’s an instant death.

Yeah but he didn't even need to regen from it, Garuda could rip his arm off despite being a little bit weaker yet apparently an attack that is literally 1,000 times stronger than Ifrit doesn't do anything besides knock him down for a while? Besides, Eikons regen isn't that insane, they can regen limbs and stuff but a beam that completely engulfs Ifrits body would've done way more damage that he'd be able to regenerate from if it was actually 1,000 times higher than his durability.

Yeah but it dealing instant death doesn't require it to be 1,000 times stronger, especially since he's already noticeably superior to Ifrit and in cutscenes we see Ifrit being durable enough to withstand a Gigaflare without losing limbs, dying, or hell even being forced back to Clive (It's possible to force Eikons to turn back to their dominants through sheer power or damage, and unless you wanna argue Ramuh or Odin are 1,000 times stonger than Ifrit was when they forced him back or that they also have a multipler of 1,000 times for their attacks to Clive than I ain't seeing how Bahamuts Gigaflare would be that much higher than Bahamuts normal spells.

The gigaflare being able to damage ifrit risen is literally inconsistent in game as we literally see Phoenix and ifrit (not fused) synergize to create a force field that tanks the Tera flare which should be >>> giga flare.

Did you forget that Bahamut is amped to a massive degree during his fight with Ifrit Risen? His Gigaflares are way above his base forms Teraflares given that even a quick uncharged beam from him casually shattered the same barrier he couldn't breach with a Teraflare in base form. And given that Ifrit Risen is superior to amped Bahamut while base Ifrit and Phonix are inferior to base Bahamut it's not inconsist he can handle gigaflares, hell him plowing through the Zettaflare shows it's not inconsistent to handle Gigaflares.

That analogy is heavily flawed cuz in this case there’s a direct multiplier in its name. A gigaflare literally means a thousand mega flares.

That's not a direct multiplier it's just a name to show superiorty, saying that Gigaflare is literally 1,000 times stronger than Megaflare because that's often used in real life is not great reason (Esspecially since, like I mentioned, lesser flares can harm people who can withstand higher flares). Hell Clive can use Gigaflare when he aquires Bahamuts powers yet in fights with Barnabas or Ultima it doesn't one shot them despite Clive being able to harm them with Megaflare or normal attacks. There's just not a whole lot to justify the names of these spells being an exact one to one multiplier like in real life.

 

[LazerDim8000]

Created the interdimensional rift where he fights clive at endgame with all the stars and stuff which is stated to be a dimension above space time

Is it the same one gilgamesh travels through ?

 

[Dalesean027]

Is it the one gilgamesh travels through ?

No this isn't connected to that stuff

 

[Dust_Collector]

Yeah it's a different interdimensional rift

 

[LazerDim8000]

Thought as much, just wanted to be sure.