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FFV Revisions (Shinryu and Omega Edition)

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No longer about dissidia. ignore most of the comments below. So once again, here comes the 2-A.

Shinryu and Omega:

So, only Exdeath and Enuo are given the 2-A ratings... for some reason? First of all, let's talk about The superbosses: Shinryu and Omega. In the comments below, you can see the scans from the game. They read as follows:

"The roiling skies let loose a vile beast without a soul. Omega was its name. The dragon Shinryu came upon its heels. Not e'en the legendary weapons twelve were able to subdue these evil beasts. Inside the Rift the demons were interred; so should they stay until forever's end, their names to stay unspoken evermore."

So a lot to unpack here. First of all, we know that the Sealed weapons were used to defeat Enuo in the past, when he had the power of the void (I.E. his 2-A key). And if we're going by canon, Bartz and co. used the power of said sealed weapons to defeat Exdeath and Neo Exdeath (Also 2-A). However, Shinryu and Omega were too strong for them. Seems like a pretty plausible reason for being 2-A, backed up by them being more powerful than Neo Exdeath in terms of game stats.

Bartz and Co:

First off, i know i've been told that it's a "Massive Outlier" that Bartz would scale off Neo Exdeath, considering the previous difference in power. But there arTVe a few reasons that doesn't really apply in this scenario.

1.) Concrete Feats. This isn't like Kaguya possibly creating a star or Bartz scaling off another character from a crossover. Exdeath has concrete 2-A justification, as this wiki has admitted. Considering that The warriors of light canonically defeated him, there's really no reason that Bartz, Lenna, Faris and Krile shouldn't scale. Slightly lower in terms of overall AP, but still relatively comparable.

2.) Consistency. If it's such an outlier, why have the four defeated other 2-As that are arguably stronger? There's Enuo, and if the Shinryu and Omega upgrades are ruled okay, that makes Four, plus two if you count Shinryu Verus and Omega MK.2. Once is an outlier, twice is a coincidence, but four times? that's a pattern.

3.) Dissidia. Now, hear me out. I know we can't scale bartz to other final fantasy characters according to this wiki's rules. But considering the games are all canon, It should be pretty safe to assume that Bartz can at least scale off of the characters from his own game. And he's fought with a void-wielding Exdeath in that. It's true that it isn't neo exdeath, but it IS him using the 2-A void as a weapon.

That all being said... discuss.
 
@Zephyros

No.

We don't do crossover scaling because of how inconsistent it is. The Final Fantasy II, IV, VI, VII, IX, X, and XII cast have never faced anything remotely close to a Tier 2 threat.

It's the same as scaling every character in Marvel vs. Capcom to each other.

Yes, Dissidia is a canon game, but that doesn't mean that we automatically ignore basic scaling logic.

Also, it was never stated that Enuo is stronger than Neo Exdeath, not was it ever stated that Shinryu or Omega were more powerful than Neo Exdeath. Being a superboss doesn't mean that they're automatically stronger story-wise.
 
Reppuzan said:
@Zephyros
No.

We don't do crossover scaling because of how inconsistent it is. The Final Fantasy II, IV, VI, VII, IX, X, and XII cast have never faced anything remotely close to a Tier 2 threat.

It's the same as scaling every character in Marvel vs. Capcom to each other.

Yes, Dissidia is a canon game, but that doesn't mean that we automatically ignore basic scaling logic.

Also, it was never stated that Enuo is stronger than Neo Exdeath, not was it ever stated that Shinryu or Omega were more powerful than Neo Exdeath. Being a superboss doesn't mean that they're automatically stronger story-wise.
Rebuttal.

>Crossover scaling is too inconsistent

That's exactly why i'm suggesting Seperate Keys.

>It's the same as scaling every character in Marvel VS. Capcom to eachother

Well, no. Those aren't canon to marvel or capcom.

>That doesn't mean we automatically ignore basic scaling logic

Shinryu, Enuo, Neo Exdeath, Omega, and stronger forms of Shinryu and Omega. Seems pretty consistent to me.

>It was never stated Enuo is stronger than Exdeath, or Shinryu and Omega are stronger than exdeath

Sealed weapons could not beat Shinryu and Omega. The sealed weapons defeated Enuo AND Neo Exdeath. and by this site's own admission, Enuo = Exdeath. They wield the same power, and Enuo achieved mastery of it while Exdeath was consumed by it.
 
@Zephyros

What you're suggesting is that we have a 2-A key for every character in Dissidia over inconsistent scaling. That's a no.

I honestly don't know where the whole "sealed weapons could not beat Shinryu and Omega" thing came from because the Sealed Weapons were never used to fight Shinryu and Omega in FFV. They were explicitly used to fight Enuo.
 
Reppuzan said:
@Zephyros
What you're suggesting is that we have a 2-A key for every character in Dissidia over inconsistent scaling. That's a no.

I honestly don't know where the whole "sealed weapons could not beat Shinryu and Omega" thing came from because the Sealed Weapons were never used to fight Shinryu and Omega in FFV. They were explicitly used to fight Enuo.
  • AHEM*
"The roiling skies let loose a vile beast without a soul; Omega was it's name. The dragon Shinryu came upon its heels. Not e'en the legendary weapons twelve were able to subdue these evil beasts. Inside the Rift the demons were interred; so should they stay until forever's end, their names to stay unspoken evermore."

-Actual literal quote from FFV
 
For god's sake, at least Shinryu and Omega deserve upgrades. do i need to turn this into an FFV revision thread?
 
I'd still like more input on this, but upgrades for Shinryu and Omega seem plausible.

I still don't think they should scale to the entire Dissidia cast though.
 
I do not think any party should scale to Omega since it is a bonus enemy and not all versions of said enemy is comparable to eachother or we would get 2-A canon Warrior of Light or Noctis, which were damaged by final boss foes [Chaos and Ardyn] with much lower feat showing, we are also not scaling Squall to Ultimecia nor Bartz to Neo Exdeath.
 
Dark649 said:
I do not think any party should scale to Omega since it is a bonus enemy and not all versions of said enemy is comparable to eachother or we would get 2-A canon Warrior of Light or Noctis, which were damaged by final boss foes [Chaos and Ardyn] with much lower feat showing, we are also not scaling Squall to Ultimecia nor Bartz to Neo Exdeath.
Omega and Shinryu aren't canon to FF1, but they are to FF5. i'm not saying every version of said enemy is comparable to eachother. please reread the thread.
 
i'd also like to mention that the bravely default protagonists are scaled to the final boss. the SMT protagonists are scaled to the final boss. but Squall and Bartz aren't? Luneth is too, for that matter, and they both come from the void
 
I think that Reppuzan seems to make sense.
 
That we cannot scale weaker characters from inconsistent crossovers.
 
read the thread. this isn't about dissidia.

also i mean three instances seems pretty consistent to me but what do i know
 
I don't have enough time available, but I will let the other staff members handle this then.
 
I agree with the level of the protagonists must be updated, a villain being defeated by someone with many tier below sounds stupid.

But on the Omega and shinryu I'm not so sure, it's not just the legendary weapons that sets the power level but the crystals and we do not know if they are superior to crystals.
 
The reason why Squall and Bartz are not upgraded is because they struggled to Ultimecia and Tree Exdeath Tier 3 form before immediately fighting their Tier 2 form.
 
Dark649 said:
The reason why Squall and Bartz are not upgraded is because they struggled to Ultimecia and Tree Exdeath Tier 3 form before immediately fighting their Tier 2 form.
Luneth and co. straight-up died to the cloud of darkness, but they're still 2-C
 
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